My Blood Values Then, and Now

[Martinello]

That's quite interesting stuff you posting Joe. Hats off to you for doing this, it takes a lot of courage, both on a personal and professional level to be open about this.

Alterations in the testosterone levels in chronically endurance trained men are not uncommen. Some even refer to this as the 'exercise hypogonadal male condition'. Drops in testosterone production, both exogenously provoked and base lines, seem decreased in endurance trained men. Whether this decrease is augmented by PEDs is not really well understood, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
Whether the hypogonadal condition is reversible is not understood.

A guy named Hackney from University of North Carolina has done a lot of research in this field, so maybe your endocrinologist could look into his work.

Joe, I notice there's a huge difference in your hemoglobin too before and after.

Vit B supplements might help with your blood values, at least red blood cells. I was low on vit. B because of avoidance of bread (wheat allergy).

Vit B's supplements seem to have done the trick and I think I climb better now partly as a result.

check the MCV before recommending vitamin B supplements

 

[Martinello]

Looking at the numbers, I would indeed suspect that the drop in HCT could be related to the decreased free testosterone.
Whether this relates to PEDs or just endurance exercise is hard to say. I think you and your endocrinologist should keep both aetiologies in mind.

That being said, I think it is interesting to see stuff like that from athletes like you. The big problem about exercise physiology in the top athletes these days is that it is so hard to pinpoint which parameters can be attributed to being extremely gifted and which to being extremely juiced. Also, the effects of doping in the elite athletes is still based on hearsay and guesstimates. I would really like more (ex)riders to make their biochemistry and doping history available to science.

 

[LastRide]

I hope you're feeling ok, but im not sure what this has to do with doping in professional cycling, you weren't relevant then, and you're not relevant now. We know there is cheating in cycling, this isn't helping it at all.

Sure, Joe may not have been a top level professional cyclist but where it is helpful is if more cyclists spoke out about the effects of doping on themselves and their children it may stop some people doing it.

Good on you Joe for being frank about your cycling.

 

[scribe]

.....<mercy snip>.......

Sorry dude. If you understood the conversation before rubbing your scent on it, you could easily figure out I was endorsing Joe's posting.

However, in the post your were confused by, I was questioning your palmares. Which I would now add clueless to the list of hater and stalker.

 

[Parrot23]

check the MCV before recommending vitamin B supplements

Yes, think you're right. I was playing fast and loose with the general vit b. recommendation.

I see Joe's MCV is in the normal range, so no vit. B deficiency. (Me: I was above the normal range, implying below normal vit b. levels).

So much for my career as a doctor. But, hey, I could start a quacko website recommending vit. b. as a general solution to the world's probs.

 

[Martinello]

So much for my career as a doctor. But, hey, I could start a quacko website recommending vit. b. as a general solution to the world's probs.

If you want excellent customer satisfaction, you should recommend prednisone as a general solution for the world's problems

 

[Parrot23]

If you want excellent customer satisfaction, you should recommend prednisone as a general solution for the world's problems

Wow, I'm googling that fast.

Thinking of a website, possible Deepak Chopra endorsement, and a Ussain Bolt link. Just imagining all the dough rolling in....

 

[elapid]

Alterations in the testosterone levels in chronically endurance trained men are not uncommen. Some even refer to this as the 'exercise hypogonadal male condition'. Drops in testosterone production, both exogenously provoked and base lines, seem decreased in endurance trained men. Whether this decrease is augmented by PEDs is not really well understood, but I wouldn't be surprised if that was the case.
Whether the hypogonadal condition is reversible is not understood.

I thought that decreased testosterone levels in professional cyclists occurred only during intense (and I mean really intense) training periods, busy race schedules, or 3-week Grand Tours. For professional cyclists not training or racing intensely, then significant suppression of testosterone production does not seem to occur.

See the following papers:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11726480?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12439770?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15630145?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Furthermore, some studies have found no suppression of testosterone production in cyclists and other studies in non-professional athletes in non-cycling endurance sports actually show an increase in testosterone levels during training, but a decrease following racing:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9018515?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2532181?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=4&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed

My understanding is Joe is just starting to enjoy his bike again and is not training intensely or racing. I am no endocrinologist, but I doubt that Joe's current level of training is responsible for his decreased testosterone levels based on my reading and understanding of the testosterone with training and racing.

 

[LastRide]

I thought that decreased testosterone levels in professional cyclists occurred only during intense (and I mean really intense) training periods, busy race schedules, or 3-week Grand Tours. For professional cyclists not training or racing intensely, then significant suppression of testosterone production does not seem to occur.

See the following papers:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11726480?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12439770?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15630145?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Furthermore, some studies have found no suppression of testosterone production in cyclists and other studies in non-professional athletes in non-cycling endurance sports actually show an increase in testosterone levels during training, but a decrease following racing:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9018515?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2532181?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=4&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed

My understanding is Joe is just starting to enjoy his bike again and is not training intensely or racing. I am no endocrinologist, but I doubt that Joe's current level of training is responsible for his decreased testosterone levels based on my reading and understanding of the testosterone with training and racing.

I am missing the part that explains Joe's health problems, was it an earlier post/thread? I am assuming from what is being he has low testosterone? any thing else or the link to the thread/ post?

 

[Cobber]

The pot just called out the kettle.

Sorry dude. If you understood the conversation before rubbing your scent on it, you could easily figure out I was endorsing Joe's posting.

However, in the post your were confused by, I was questioning your palmares. Which I would now add clueless to the list of hater and stalker.

.................

 

[El Imbatido]

If you want excellent customer satisfaction, you should recommend prednisone as a general solution for the world's problems

I have used prednisone and prednisolone for my crohn's disease before and i have to say whilst it is good at what it does i didn't like the side effects, especially weight gain through water retention - i put on 8 kilograms because of it also deepening voice, a crapload of acne and a sex drive that dropped faster than Stefan Schumacher's jaw when he heard there was a test for CERA

But as i said it is good at what it does.

 

[Race Radio]

I thought that decreased testosterone levels in professional cyclists occurred only during intense (and I mean really intense) training periods, busy race schedules, or 3-week Grand Tours. For professional cyclists not training or racing intensely, then significant suppression of testosterone production does not seem to occur.

See the following papers:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/11726480?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=1&log$=relatedarticles&logdbfrom=pubmed

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/12439770?ordinalpos=2&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/15630145?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

Furthermore, some studies have found no suppression of testosterone production in cyclists and other studies in non-professional athletes in non-cycling endurance sports actually show an increase in testosterone levels during training, but a decrease following racing:

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/9018515?ordinalpos=3&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DefaultReportPanel.Pubmed_RVDocSum

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/2532181?ordinalpos=1&itool=EntrezSystem2.PEntrez.Pubmed.Pubmed_ResultsPanel.Pubmed_DiscoveryPanel.Pubmed_Discovery_RA&linkpos=4&log$=relatedreviews&logdbfrom=pubmed

My understanding is Joe is just starting to enjoy his bike again and is not training intensely or racing. I am no endocrinologist, but I doubt that Joe's current level of training is responsible for his decreased testosterone levels based on my reading and understanding of the testosterone with training and racing.

Often when a person has been using artificial testosterone suplimentation the bodies natural production drops, even stops.

 

[Anonymous]

The pot just called out the kettle.

Says the guy with no sense of irony.

 

[Cobber]

I have used prednisone and prednisolone for my crohn's disease before and i have to say whilst it is good at what it does i didn't like the side effects, especially weight gain through water retention - i put on 8 kilograms because of it also deepening voice, a crapload of acne and a sex drive that dropped faster than Stefan Schumacher's jaw when he heard there was a test for CERA

But as i said it is good at what it does.

Glad to hear you didn't get diabetes as a side effect. My wife takes prednisone as she has an autoimmune disease, and she has been plagued by its side effects, particualarly diabetes and, consequently, diabetic neuropathy. It does control her autoimmune disease, however.

In the US, I fear that widespread prednisone use would be a disaster because there is sugar (in the form of high fructose corn syrup) in absolutely everything! There is already an epidemic of diabetes. Prednisone would exacerbate it!

 

[scribe]

.................

Yes? What's it to you?

 

[elapid]

Often when a person has been using artificial testosterone suplimentation the bodies natural production drops, even stops.

True and that goes for most hormones, including steroids. However, to the best of my knowledge, once the suppression wears off then production should return and return back to normal levels.

 

[elapid]

I am missing the part that explains Joe's health problems, was it an earlier post/thread? I am assuming from what is being he has low testosterone? any thing else or the link to the thread/ post?

No, Joe doesn't go into the specifics, just that he has some health problems and he is seeing his doctor and endocrinologist about the problem. He did post his most recent blood work and a comparison to his blood work when juiced up to provide us with an indication of what doping can do for you. Joe is currently borderline anemic (38% hematocrit compared to 50% when doped) and also has marginally low testosterone levels.

 

[Race Radio]

True and that goes for most hormones, including steroids. However, to the best of my knowledge, once the suppression wears off then production should return and return back to normal levels.

It is my understanding that this is not always the case. I have read that both Marco Pantani and Jose Canseco had an issue with this.

 

[Cobblestones]

It is my understanding that this is not always the case. I have read that both Marco Pantani and Jose Canseco had an issue with this.

To be precise, I think Pantani developed a hyposensitivity to EPO. It could be the same might be responsible for Joe's low crit level (it was mentioned that it is now lower than before he started taking PEDs).

Testosterone use (and heavy exercise) will suppress testosterone production (testosterone is somewhat self-regulating) but usually it goes up again after a while. Likely neither current use nor heavy exercise is the reason for the presently low levels. I really don't know what prolonged use might do in the long term, but I guess it is not inconceivable that it might semi-permanently depress testosterone production by changing the regulatory system for testosterone production.

I don't know what proper etiquette is in this case. Joe, I assume by posting all that stuff you are fine with having it discussed. I assume your goal is to actually encourage discussions along the way of "what can doping do to your body in the long run". If I'm wrong, tell me and I'll erase my post.

 

[Cobblestones]

My understanding is your testorerone levels start to fall back naturally from the late 20s onwards. That's why the older you get the harder it is to retain muscle and thus you lose strength.

The level is low (0.95) compared to a reference range of 1.5-2.2 which takes into account variations of the kind you're talking about.

 

[Cobber]

Yes? What's it to you?

Go look at every one of your posts in the "Betsy Andreu appreciation society" thread and see if the word "clueless" comes to mind. Dr Maserati (and others) basically had to spoon feed you every single fact in that thread, despite links describing the whole case being posted ad nauseum. Consequently, the fact that you called someone clueless while in your post immediately prior say "The pot just called out the kettle." seams a little ironic.

I don't fault you for not knowing much about a particular topic. I do fault you for throwing around insults at people that contribute a lot to these forums when you yourself contribute so little......

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Thanks Elapid and Cobblestones for some informative posts.

I read that too about Canseco. Hard to tell, as there is obviously no controlled testing for this, but despite appearing as a jerk, pretty much everything Jose has said about himself, and his sport (baseball) have been shown to be completely true.

If you want excellent customer satisfaction, you should recommend prednisone as a general solution for the world's problems

Bah! How about Methylenedioxymethamphetamine? Or Dextromoramide? (Believe it or not, athletes in the 60's and 70's were taking it as a pain killer)

 

[joe_papp]

No, Joe doesn't go into the specifics...

That's correct. There is no diagnosis yet b/c I've not yet seen an endocrinologist for more complete testing. The posting of the different blood tests is just to provide two different reference points...slightly younger and very doped, and now, w/o dope, w/ health problems and always tired, lethargic, not experiencing expected positive changes in body composition in response to training, etc.

I don't know if the symptoms I have now are caused by primary or secondary issues, and what role - if any - doping played in this. I'm just trying to put into a public forum actual data from an elite athlete who was doped and post-doped. I know I don't need to say this for 99% of the people here, who are sophisticated enough to realize what's going on, but...for the rest: it doesn't matter that I didn't ride the Tour de France, b/c that's irrelevant to analyzing the effects of doping. In 2006 I had UCI points in the America Tour, the European Tour and the Asia Tour. I didn't have any ProTour points (or whatever it was called then) and I didn't have any points from Oceania Tour (if that even existed then). So while I wasn't in the GT milieu in '06, I was still in the "doping" milieu and I had a former GT-rider for a roommate.

Ultimately, as I start to become more open and share more information in a more public way, my hope is that by offering myself as an example w/ documented evidence there will be a name and a face and a body and a pair of eyes and a voice to go along with the previously abstract warnings about how doping is dangerous and why it shouldn't be done, and what the consequences can be...and hopefully even if you do get mixed up in it and messed up by it, through honesty and atoning for mistakes made you can right your life and find a place in the world.

I expect, of course, to be hassled, heckled, and hated upon along the way...I've had two years of that already and it's true that one does start to develop a resistance to anonymous emails and insults and fanboys.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Go look at every one of your posts in the "Betsy Andreu appreciation society" thread and see if the word "clueless" comes to mind. Dr Maserati (and others) basically had to spoon feed you every single fact in that thread, despite links describing the whole case being posted ad nauseum. Consequently, the fact that you called someone clueless while in your post immediately prior say "The pot just called out the kettle." seams a little ironic.

I don't fault you for not knowing much about a particular topic. I do fault you for throwing around insults at people that contribute a lot to these forums when you yourself contribute so little......

I would be suprised if when Scribe looks back at his posts anywhere "clueless" comes to his mind. Who sets out purposefully to come across as clueless (other than BPC I mean) ? I am afraid the requisite degree of introspection is not available for him to arrive at that determination.

 

[scribe]

What I am clueless about is that my comment hurts the feelings of a couple of guys I wasn't even addressing. That strikes me as weird.