My Blood Values Then, and Now

[Izoard]

[I had to remove the post temporarily with the blood work in it due to the a-hole who had way too much free time on his/her hands and copied the info and used it inappropriately, nefariously contacting people with whom I am associated, doing business or engaged...idiot.

Wow, what a grade A dumbass that person is! I agree with Alpe ... someone should deck the guy/gal.

On another note, when you find out, let us know what the root of the problem is. It is amazing how complex we are, and how much stress can really thump us. I wonder how much of this is related to what you have been through as a result of your admission.

 

[Anonymous]

THANKS! And thanks to everyone who has contacted me by email or via PM to express similar sentiments. This is most-appreciated, as the effects of low-t or an under-active thyroid CAN ruin your day, every day. Seriously. So the support @ a personal level is appreciated, and the understanding of what I"m trying to do more broadly in sharing this information is great. Keep repeating it...pass it on, talk about the reality of this - not me per se, but what still goes on in cycling and is hurting the sport.

[I had to remove the post temporarily with the blood work in it due to the a-hole who had way too much free time on his/her hands and copied the info and used it inappropriately, nefariously contacting people with whom I am associated, doing business or engaged...idiot.

The amazing thing is that they believe that by discrediting you, they will somehow improve cycling. I honestly find it inspirational that you are so open and honest. It is proof that honesty and character still exist. Unfortunately, the "heroes" most follow are cowards who rely on denial and propaganda to hide the truth they live.

You know, its interesting that as a recovering addict and alcoholic, I have experienced almost to a person respect and forgiveness for getting clean, being honest about what I did, and making amends. You have received so much of the opposite because you did performance enhancing drugs and have been honest about it. Honestly, you appear to have far harder a row to plow than do I, and it makes no real sense because I can assure you that the things I did to feed my drug habit far surpassed anything you did in terms of illegality and degridation to those around me.

Again, I have the utmost respect for you.

 

[elapid]

The amazing thing is that they believe that by discrediting you, they will somehow improve cycling. I honestly find it inspirational that you are so open and honest. It is proof that honesty and character still exist. Unfortunately, the "heroes" most follow are cowards who rely on denial and propaganda to hide the truth they live.

You know, its interesting that as a recovering addict and alcoholic, I have experienced almost to a person respect and forgiveness for getting clean, being honest about what I did, and making amends. You have received so much of the opposite because you did performance enhancing drugs and have been honest about it. Honestly, you appear to have far harder a row to plow than do I, and it makes no real sense because I can assure you that the things I did to feed my drug habit far surpassed anything you did in terms of illegality and degridation to those around me.

Again, I have the utmost respect for you.

+1. Joe, all the best for a speedy recovery and thanks for your honesty.

 

[Anonymous]

The amazing thing is that they believe that by discrediting you, they will somehow improve cycling. I honestly find it inspirational that you are so open and honest. It is proof that honesty and character still exist. Unfortunately, the "heroes" most follow are cowards who rely on denial and propaganda to hide the truth they live.

You know, its interesting that as a recovering addict and alcoholic, I have experienced almost to a person respect and forgiveness for getting clean, being honest about what I did, and making amends. You have received so much of the opposite because you did performance enhancing drugs and have been honest about it. Honestly, you appear to have far harder a row to plow than do I, and it makes no real sense because I can assure you that the things I did to feed my drug habit far surpassed anything you did in terms of illegality and degridation to those around me.

Again, I have the utmost respect for you.

Great post.

If cycling ever cleans up it will be because of the courage of Joe Papp and others that dare to come clean.

 

[mambo#5]

I heard of Joe Papp one day from watching the Giro on Justin.tv. I never pay much attention to the chatter that takes place to the right of the video window, but somehow it caught my eye how this guy was trying to explain to some unknown people why the pros dope, by basically telling them his personal story. I admire the courage it takes to come clean and tell it like it is. Keep up the good work Joe.

Sincerely,

some unknown internet guy

 

[skidmark]

I know little about the details/effects of doping, and what little I do know comes from this forum. So I can't contribute a single thing to analysis/discussion. But I can say, as someone who has become an enormous cycling fan over the past few years, that this is easily the best thread I've seen on these forums. It puts the doping discussion in much clearer terms than the 'this guy did really well and lots of guys dope so he probably doped to do that well' level of discussion that is the most common (and, at my level of knowledge, is about the only way I can engage with the subject). So thanks for that.

Beyond that, it personalizes the issue immensely. It's easy to forget about the trajectory of an athlete's health, since they're only really in the public eye while they're active and winning (unless they're on the level of Lance Armstrong, Muhammad Ali, etc but those are very rare exceptions). The fact that a professional cyclist who has not ridden the tour de france, who I have never read a word about in the daily cyclingnews editions, is willing to engage this deeply with this subject, helps to cut through my easily-accumulated cynicism towards the sport better than anything I have yet encountered. So thanks for that as well.

 

[joe_papp]

I heard of Joe Papp one day from watching the Giro on Justin.tv. I never pay much attention to the chatter that takes place to the right of the video window, but somehow it caught my eye how this guy was trying to explain to some unknown people why the pros dope, by basically telling them his personal story. I admire the courage it takes to come clean and tell it like it is. Keep up the good work Joe.

SUIG:

I think it was the fact that the justin.tv Giro crowd didn't haze me when I showed-up there that gave me the hope that at least some subset of the general cycling population would interact with me in such a manner as to make possible my participation in a group ride - or discussion. I remember that day when I just opened my laptop and found the Giro streams and started barfing up the truth... I will always appreciate the guys who were watching that day's stage and engaged with me ... quite a change from 2007. Thanks.

And to everyone else, as soon as I find my old lab sheet showing an Hct of 58 I'll be sure to upload it. A freakin 20-point difference in Hct. No wonder I could climb mountains then, and why things seem so ordinary, or hard eve, now.

 

[labratty]

Joe, I wanted to add that I do appreciate you speaking out and continue speaking out. We have had it a little before from some riders and they sneak off quietly when they get a backlash from other riders or fans. I really hope you can stay with us and keep making noise. Getting drugs mostly out of cycling is going to be hard, and it is going to take a few focal points to keep people watching. It is a rough role to get landed with but you may be one of those. The overall problem is so widespread that we need to have a few beach heads into the problem, how the system worked and how to chip away at the issue, and you provide that. Thank you.

You mentioned on your blog, and apologised to the guys you raced against that you know were clean, at the conti/protour level were there many there? Many voices here will tell us even now, and certainly a few years back everybody was juiced. Was is just that they had not succumb to the pressure yet or is it really possible to still hold out in the system.

ratty

 

[Johnny Colnago]

Not sure why you guys are buying into this tripe. He's trying to sell himself as a professional racer and someone who doped at the highest levels of cycling when some simple research shows this guy is full of it. He doped himself to the gills to barely place in small time events. (Tour of Ohio, c'mon guy get serious!)

Several people who were and are actually paid to race their bicycles as professionals have come out and called him a liar not because of his doping, but simply because he is lying about who he is and what his actual standing was in the "professional peleton."

That is to say he had none.

The way you guys lap stuff up without even doing simple fact checking is amazing. Why don't you send the deposed Prince 12k for "transfer fees" while you're at it along with all of your pertinent personal info.

Holy cripes this forums is filled with some gullible mf'ers.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Not sure why you guys are buying into this tripe. He's trying to sell himself as a professional racer and someone who doped at the highest levels of cycling when some simple research shows this guy is full of it. He doped himself to the gills to barely place in small time events. (Tour of Ohio, c'mon guy get serious!)

Several people who were and are actually paid to race their bicycles as professionals have come out and called him a liar not because of his doping, but simply because he is lying about who he is and what his actual standing was in the "professional peleton."

That is to say he had none.

The way you guys lap stuff up without even doing simple fact checking is amazing. Why don't you send the deposed Prince 12k for "transfer fees" while you're at it along with all of your pertinent personal info.

Holy cripes this forums is filled with some gullible mf'ers.

and here we have a typical version of the "you were never any good that's why you doped" dismissal of whistleblowers that restores omerta.

Thank you for illustrating this so effectively.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Not sure why you guys are buying into this tripe. He's trying to sell himself as a professional racer and someone who doped at the highest levels of cycling when some simple research shows this guy is full of it. He doped himself to the gills to barely place in small time events. (Tour of Ohio, c'mon guy get serious!)

Several people who were and are actually paid to race their bicycles as professionals have come out and called him a liar not because of his doping, but simply because he is lying about who he is and what his actual standing was in the "professional peleton."

That is to say he had none.

QUOTE]

Joe rode on lower tier professional teams in Italy in UCI professional and elite races. It might not have been protour, but it is "professional" none the less. Of course due to the low (if existent) salaries and the unglamorous nature of many events this level of competition doesn't have the same allure as the protour or the major European classics, but don't mock it unless you've ever ridden it - it is seriously fast.

Having also ridden at and around the top amateur / low end pro level in my opinion Joe's information is entirely credible and unsurprising, especially concerning Italian continental teams.

Of course those seeking to deny that a doping culture exists at the very top of pro cycling need to deny that it occurs among elite amateurs and lower level pros.

Besides - which pros called Joe a liar? Landis (because Joe testified that testosterone IS widely used for recovery in stage racing? I wonder why Landis might have done that?

 

[Johnny Colnago]

Mike Sayers for one.
http://www.mikesayers.missingsaddle.com/2008/05/23/are-you-kidding-me/

and

Chad Hartley
http://www.chadhartley.missingsaddle.com/2008/05/28/racinghatersand-all-that-bs/

It's all fine and well to "come clean" about how you doped but to portray yourself as having played an important role in cycling and even tricking the media into portraying you as having had a larger role than you did? Well, then you are starting to border on downright narcissistic.

Having seen a couple of "pros" come into this forum and talking about doping as if they should somehow be applauding for making bad decisions and suffering the consequences of those decisions is laughable. What's more disconcerting is the folks lapping it up and giving them the ego stroke they obviously so desperately want.

Ah whatever, you guys can sit in here with your rose coloured glasses and think you're talking to the big boys I guess. I have some seaside Arizonan property to sell you when you're ready to retire.

Peace to all of you.

 

[Martinello]

snip

The way you guys lap stuff up without even doing simple fact checking is amazing. Why don't you send the deposed Prince 12k for "transfer fees" while you're at it along with all of your pertinent personal info.

snip

Joe Papp's palmares and history were never subject to any inflation in this thread and he, nor anybody else, claimed he was the next big thing in cycling.

Many dirty cyclists kept their trap shut about suppliers, team mates and side effects allowing them to stay in sport continuously promoting the same "sporting" values (=doping). Whenever somebody really speaks up he/she takes a lot of fire from the peloton and the fans. The peloton because it's bad for business, the fans because no one likes to see integrity of their sporting heroes questioned.

Keeping that in mind, I find it even more disturbing that Joe Papp is getting badmouthed by fans and fellow cyclists taken into account that he never was a big player. But the reaction he is getting from some people is well in line with the reaction others have received. And folks like Bassons, Manzano, Kimmage, Kohl, Jaksche and Sinkewitz would probably never make it out of the Robauix showers alive.

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Mike Sayers for one.
http://www.mikesayers.missingsaddle.com/2008/05/23/are-you-kidding-me/

and

Chad Hartley
http://www.chadhartley.missingsaddle.com/2008/05/28/racinghatersand-all-that-bs/

.

ah....Mike Sayers and Chad Hartley....household names!

 

[joe_papp]

N"professional peleton."

If you're going to heckle, at least spell "peloton" correctly. I also always thought it was funny (After the fact) that in the early season, I had more UCI points than Floyd in 2006. And we both know how that ended-up. Next.

I also think he is upset b/c he missed the intended irony (and a bit of sarcasm) behind a post on my blog about a ridiculously expensive bike that Competitive Cyclist, who have, on rare occasion, seen fit to mention me as a persecuted doper (in their blog), will also probably have on sale soon.http://is.gd/2St2v

 

[Anonymous]

Mike Sayers for one.
http://www.mikesayers.missingsaddle.com/2008/05/23/are-you-kidding-me/

and

Chad Hartley
http://www.chadhartley.missingsaddle.com/2008/05/28/racinghatersand-all-that-bs/

It's all fine and well to "come clean" about how you doped but to portray yourself as having played an important role in cycling and even tricking the media into portraying you as having had a larger role than you did? Well, then you are starting to border on downright narcissistic.

Having seen a couple of "pros" come into this forum and talking about doping as if they should somehow be applauding for making bad decisions and suffering the consequences of those decisions is laughable. What's more disconcerting is the folks lapping it up and giving them the ego stroke they obviously so desperately want.

Ah whatever, you guys can sit in here with your rose coloured glasses and think you're talking to the big boys I guess. I have some seaside Arizonan property to sell you when you're ready to retire.

Peace to all of you.

Omerta alert.

Is that the same Mike Sayers that was on that super squeaky-clean Mercury team with, um, Floyd Landis, Pavel Tonkov, Van Petegem and DS'd by that pillar of ethics John Wordin?

I am not accusing Sayers of anything. As far as I know he's pure as the wind driven snow. The guy has had a very long career that goes back far enough to include times when doping was/is rampant in the Euro and American peloton and I'd imagine he knows something about the practice. Just because he has something to say does not make it any more or less impressive than Joe Papp.

 

[tubularglue]

sober = son of bitc* everythings real

 

[Cobber]

Not sure why you guys are buying into this tripe. He's trying to sell himself as a professional racer and someone who doped at the highest levels of cycling when some simple research shows this guy is full of it. He doped himself to the gills to barely place in small time events. (Tour of Ohio, c'mon guy get serious!)

Several people who were and are actually paid to race their bicycles as professionals have come out and called him a liar not because of his doping, but simply because he is lying about who he is and what his actual standing was in the "professional peleton."

That is to say he had none.

The way you guys lap stuff up without even doing simple fact checking is amazing. Why don't you send the deposed Prince 12k for "transfer fees" while you're at it along with all of your pertinent personal info.

Holy cripes this forums is filled with some gullible mf'ers.

You are completely missing the point. It doesn't matter how good he is/was. It doesn't matter if he cheated to win seven TdF's or whether he was a Cat1 amateur who would have been Cat2 without drugs. It doesn't change what he did or the affects it had on his physiology.

Have you read this thread, at all? The thread is about Joe's experience with doping and how his body has changed a lot since he stopped. For you to hide behind an anonymous avatar and attack someone for being so open and truthful on a forum about doping is pathetic. Especially since this is a thread where we are getting real feedback from someone who has actually experienced what it is like in the pro peleton.

What makes this forum great is that we have people like Joe, Jonothan Vaughters, Betsy Andreau and and several others, all who have very real experiences with professional cycling, sharing their personal views and experiences. Unfortunately, we also have people like you who insult them because they say something that goes against your personal bias.

 

[TRDean]

I hope you're feeling ok, but im not sure what this has to do with doping in professional cycling, you weren't relevant then, and you're not relevant now. We know there is cheating in cycling, this isn't helping it at all.

You are such a freaking pudd it isnt even funny!!

 

[Escarabajo]

Mike Sayers for one.
http://www.mikesayers.missingsaddle.com/2008/05/23/are-you-kidding-me/

Blah, blah, blah. This guy didn't say anything of value. He just went ranting about Joe Papp. What in the world does being a Pro has to do with coming forward about doping? Is this guy an idiot? In fact, I don't know him. Does that make him a player? He sures know how to enforce the OMERTA.

It's all fine and well to "come clean" about how you doped but to portray yourself as having played an important role in cycling and even tricking the media into portraying you as having had a larger role than you did? Well, then you are starting to border on downright narcissistic.

When we talk about doping and the effects of it, being a player in the Pro world has no significance to me.

Having seen a couple of "pros" come into this forum and talking about doping as if they should somehow be applauding for making bad decisions and suffering the consequences of those decisions is laughable. What's more disconcerting is the folks lapping it up and giving them the ego stroke they obviously so desperately want.

....

Jonny Colnago, this is the second time that you go at it at ex-bicycle riders. I am not sure what your objective is with these type of posts. Maybe Enforce the OMERTA.

 

[Cobblestones]

Mike Sayers for one.
http://www.mikesayers.missingsaddle.com/2008/05/23/are-you-kidding-me/

I like that part:

My definition of a professional is a person who gets a monthly paycheck from a company to race and train. As far as I know, no major Pro team ever paid Joe Papp a dime.

See how he shifted the goal posts from never been paid to never been paid by a 'major Pro team' (what's his definition for 'major Pro team' anyway).

I could say something like:
Mike Sayers is an utter failure as a cyclist because he never won anything. As far as I know, he never won one of the Monuments or a GT.

What it shows me is that Sayers probably has something to gain from keeping the omerta intact. Why else would he raise such a stink? Oh, and the Johnny Colnago dude should stop shilling for those guys. It's unpalatable.

 

[Anonymous]

I like that part:



See how he shifted the goal posts from never been paid to never been paid by a 'major Pro team' (what's his definition for 'major Pro team' anyway).

I could say something like:
Mike Sayers is an utter failure as a cyclist because he never won anything. As far as I know, he never won one of the Monuments or a GT.

What it shows me is that Sayers probably has something to gain from keeping the omerta intact. Why else would he raise such a stink? Oh, and the Johnny Colnago dude should stop shilling for those guys. It's unpalatable.

+1

Word parsing drives me crazy. Subtle, but disingenuous.

 

[Dude17]

Joe probably wouldn't have admitted to anything if he hadn't been caught - he's the type of guy most people here usually love to hate.

But how many others never admit even after being caught? It is easy to fool yourself if you aren't caught. Once you're caught, you can't look at yourself in the mirror the same way again if you truly are guilty. So why don't others come clean when they're caught? Ego/pride most likely and the belief that if they keep quiet, the peloton will allow them back with open arms.

 

[Anonymous]

Mike Sayers for one.
http://www.mikesayers.missingsaddle.com/2008/05/23/are-you-kidding-me/

and

Chad Hartley
http://www.chadhartley.missingsaddle.com/2008/05/28/racinghatersand-all-that-bs/

It's all fine and well to "come clean" about how you doped but to portray yourself as having played an important role in cycling and even tricking the media into portraying you as having had a larger role than you did? Well, then you are starting to border on downright narcissistic.

Having seen a couple of "pros" come into this forum and talking about doping as if they should somehow be applauding for making bad decisions and suffering the consequences of those decisions is laughable. What's more disconcerting is the folks lapping it up and giving them the ego stroke they obviously so desperately want.

Ah whatever, you guys can sit in here with your rose coloured glasses and think you're talking to the big boys I guess. I have some seaside Arizonan property to sell you when you're ready to retire.

Peace to all of you.

Wow, what a complete tool you are. The funny thing is how this subject gets under the skin of people. People generally get pissed off about the truth. Guess Sayers and Hartley think he is getting a bit too close for comfort. Sounds like it gets to you more than it should too. Dang. What PED's do you use?

 

[skidmark]

It's all fine and well to "come clean" about how you doped but to portray yourself as having played an important role in cycling and even tricking the media into portraying you as having had a larger role than you did? Well, then you are starting to border on downright narcissistic.

Having seen a couple of "pros" come into this forum and talking about doping as if they should somehow be applauding for making bad decisions and suffering the consequences of those decisions is laughable. What's more disconcerting is the folks lapping it up and giving them the ego stroke they obviously so desperately want.

Ah whatever, you guys can sit in here with your rose coloured glasses and think you're talking to the big boys I guess. I have some seaside Arizonan property to sell you when you're ready to retire.

I'm not sure why you have such a huge boner for famous cyclists - it seems to me here that the issue at hand is doping's possible effects on the body, not how famous or influential someone was on the road. Granted, I didn't read the article from Outside or hear any broadcast on NPR; this is the first time I've heard of any of this. But that's beside the point; any criticisms of this guy claiming to be bigger than he was, founded or not, are beside the point. The point is that it is interesting, for those of us that are interested in the phenomenon of doping in cycling at all levels and not just the ones where the 'big boys' ride, to actually hear a rider discuss and analyze what doping has done to him. In fact, it's almost more interesting to hear from an 'anonymous' cyclist because that speaks alot more to the pervasiveness of doping and the urge to dope at all levels of the sport. That has little to do with anyone's palmares. I think a lot of people here are fans of cycling, and not just famous cyclists. This topic therefore interests them.

And Mike Sayers hardly won me over with his lucid and reasoned response, some of which I have sampled here:

'You sucked then and you still suck now and the only reason you were a blip is because you cheated and lied. You are continuing to insult every Pro in America with your lies about you being an equal. Enjoy your crappy life. I hope it only goes downhill from here.'

Or, more poignantly:

"The only thing he has brought to cycling is helping the general public equate cycling with dopers and cheaters. Thanks Papp. Just take, take, take. That is what guys like you do becasue (sic) you don’t respect any part of the sport. You never brought anything to this sport but trouble, so please for the love of God, just go away. Stop talking."

Yes. 'Stop talking'. That should be the name of the goddamn book on the subject of omerta in cycling. Geez.