Nadal/Tennis doping

[Andynonomous]

About Djoker, I'm not sure. Though indeed he's not as blatantly muscular as Nadal, his winning streak is quite out of this world and comparable to that of, say, Gilbert. It's quite appropriate to be suspicious of his uprising.

To put Djokovic's year in perspective, he has 53 wins, and 1 loss so far this year (and we are most of the way through the year). If he continues at this pace (although I suspect he will likely get at least a couple more losses), he will end up having the best year of any tennis player ever (as far as won/loss percentage).


This from a guy that has been around the pro-circuit for more than a few years, and never showed anywhere near this level of excellence. Usually a "supreme performer" shows hints of their excellence at a younger age. His sudden improvement in his results are raising many eyebrows, outside of tennis's "Omerta" (no journalists have raised any suspicions however).

 

[Señor_Contador]

Djokovic and Evans being more "deserving" winners: Priceless.

 

[Señor_Contador]

And let's not forget that this sudden metamorphosis as a tennis player has it's origin in him winning the Davis Cup with Serbia.

Something happened then, that allowed him to become what he is now.

He certainly does not look like the beat up player that wanted to fire his coach right after the 2010 US Open final (where he got his behind handed back to him by the very same player he now beats in every surface).

Methinks the diplomatic passport and new diet guru have something to do with it.

 

[Andynonomous]

And let's not forget that this sudden metamorphosis as a tennis player has it's origin in him winning the Davis Cup with Serbia.

Something happened then, that allowed him to become what he is now.

He certainly does not look like the beat up player that wanted to fire his coach right after the 2010 US Open final (where he got his behind handed back to him by the very same player he now beats in every surface).

Methinks the diplomatic passport and new diet guru have something to do with it.

The improvement in his results were dramatic, and sudden. I would even say unprecedented for a veteran athlete.

The improvement came in late 2010, a few months after he started using a doctor to "prepare" for competition. Although Djokovic has "fired" the doctor recently, there is nothing stopping him from using whatever program the doctor set him up with (or continuing to consult with the doctor in secret, as Armstrong did with Ferrari).

I believe any athlete that uses a doctor to "prepare for competition", is automatically suspect.

 

[Gingerale]

if there is a tennis forum that has the equivalent of a "clinic" i'd like to read it. tennis fans that post on the internet in english seem to act as one. big, big aversion to the topic.

novak djokovic's performance is welcomed to many tennis fans tired of federer and nadal having a lock on 1st and 2nd spot in the atp rankings. it's generally accepted that djokovic's winning streak is due to him being inspired by winning davis cup for serbia, finding his serve again, and going gluten-free, all of which happened at the end of 2010 season. he started 2011 by winning the australian open and went on an unequaled run.

djokovic won another masters 1000 point tournament in montreal yesterday. if he wins the next masters event AND the us open grand slam, that will make 3 out of 4 grand slams for him this year. i'm not as familiar with cycling but it would be like winning giro/tour plus LBL AMG FW, maybe ...you name it. tennis and cycling aren't really that comparable though.

but federer won 3 of 4 grandslams 2004, 2006, and 2007. nadal won 3 of 4 grand slams 2010 and has ruled clay courts for years. novak djokovic would need to do a lot more before topping their records.

the tennis omerta will stick unless something truly crazy in tennis terms happens, imo. do i suspect performance enhancing methods in tennis. yes. in tennis i'd delicately phrase it, "thanks to advances in medical procedures."

 

[Andynonomous]

if there is a tennis forum that has the equivalent of a "clinic" i'd like to read it. tennis fans that post on the internet in english seem to act as one. big, big aversion to the topic.

Yes.
http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com/

Unfortunately the blog owner has decided to retire because the Omerta in tennis is stronger than it is in cycling. Unlike cycling, tennis is getting worse. It is likely that the tennis authorities (ITF) are doing everything they can to make sure that no top level players are caught (weak testing, cover-ups, advanced notice,...). Of course, it is normal to assume that PED usage would flourish in this type of environment, and the physical performances in tennis today, bear this out. The tennis journalists will do no more than make obscure hints about their suspicions.

The normal tennis forums ("mens tennis forums", "tennis warehouse", "tennis.com") restrict discussion about doping in tennis to one degree or another. The result is that the members (and mods) are mostly adolescent fanboys/girls. The adults mostly stay away (could you imagine a forum where most of the participants, and mods, were like "Polish" ?). In those forums, anybody who suspects that any of the top athletes are doping, is labelled a "troll", and their postings are modified/deleted, or they are banished from the forums.

 

[Gingerale]

Yes.
http://tennishasasteroidproblem.blogspot.com/

Unfortunately the blog owner has decided to retire because the Omerta in tennis is stronger than it is in cycling. Unlike cycling, tennis is getting worse. It is likely that the tennis authorities (ITF) are doing everything they can to make sure that no top level players are caught (weak testing, cover-ups, advanced notice,...). Of course, it is normal to assume that PED usage would flourish in this type of environment, and the physical performances in tennis today, bear this out. The tennis journalists will do no more than make obscure hints about their suspicions.

The normal tennis forums ("mens tennis forums", "tennis warehouse") restrict talk about doping in tennis to one degree or another. The result is that the members (and mods) are mostly adolescent fanboys/girls. The adults mostly stay away (could you imagine a forum where most of the participants, and mods, were like "Polish" ?). In those forums, anybody who suspects that any of the top athletes are doping, is labelled a "troll", and banished from the forums.

very interesting read on that link. thank you. and worth another visit.

members/posters will crucify anyone for mentioning doping suspicions on two of the tennis forums i read. i don't know if the posters are adolescents or what but there certainly are extremely sensitive fanboys/girls!

agreed. tennis is getting worse. at least i see cycling going through the pain of trying to get cleaner. tennis has been making the occasional sacrifice - a scapegoat from an obscure or a lower ranked player. it's hardly a diversion from the obvious anymore.

tennis is such an individual sport (aside from davis cup or fed cup ), very different from competing together in the peloton. stating the obvious - i'm rambling and still forming opinions. bear with me, please. i shudder to think what would happen if certain male or female tennis stars fell.

 

[Boeing]

he could always go gluten free

 

[The Hitch]

very interesting read on that link. thank you. and worth another visit.

members/posters will crucify anyone for mentioning doping suspicions on two of the tennis forums i read. i don't know if the posters are adolescents or what but there certainly are extremely sensitive fanboys/girls!

agreed. tennis is getting worse. at least i see cycling going through the pain of trying to get cleaner. tennis has been making the occasional sacrifice - a scapegoat from an obscure or a lower ranked player. it's hardly a diversion from the obvious anymore.

tennis is such an individual sport (aside from davis cup or fed cup ), very different from competing together in the peloton. stating the obvious - i'm rambling and still forming opinions. bear with me, please. i shudder to think what would happen if certain male or female tennis stars fell.

Of course in tennis if anyone does miraculously test positive or admits to drug use, they are just taken to a back room, told "dont mention it again pal" and are given the same privelages as always.

Rusedski is Eurosports main tennis "expert". While someone like Floyd has his life ruined, Rusedski is a tennis player so its all good.

Mcenroe said loads of players took steroids so he is just told not to say it again. Theres money in having you commentate.

Aggasi bravely shows evidence that the tennis authorities are corrupt and the tennis world feigns outrage while looking at their watches for a day or 2 for the story to blow over, then acting like it never happened.

Meanwhile the commentators hero worship any myth their gods can come up with. Federer just trains harder than everyone else. When other players stop after 4 hours to play playstation Federer will train another 10 because he wants to win. Its this extra training that makes him immune from fatigue

Nadal just trains harder than everyone else. Did you know he doesnt drink for the first hour of his training sessions. Why would you need steroids when science proves that if you dont drink for an hour while training you grow big muscles.

Djokovic went glutten free giving him superpowers. His winning the davis cup gave him confidence. Not winning the Paris Masters or an actual grand slam in 2008. Nah that didnt give him confidence, he needed to win a team event, of which the actual victory came through Janko Tipsarevic, not himself, to give him the confidence to win individual titles.

Andy Murray just trains harder than everyone else. Hes just so competitive in every aspect of life which allows him to train so long. If only players like Fernando Gonzalez and Andy Roddick were less tranquil, less meh, and more competitive like Murray the world would be at their feet?

Come to think about it though, if you explain everyones respective skills by "they train harder than everyone else", that doesnt really explain anything
________

Its not that Djokovic cheats to beat players he otherwise could not. Its that doping is so open in tennis Djoker has to cheat to realise his potential in the first place.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

good post.
Doping is still a matter of degree, and if guys are so blatantly pushing it to the extreme like LA, Contie and Nadal (but also Real Madrid and Barca over the past couple of years), that just aint fun no more. credibility is lost and it's just too obvious to buy.
Indeed, that is one reason (be it legit or not) why guys like Cadel and Federer are more acceptable winners: though they're doubtlessly on the juice as well, they manage to retain some credibility in their style of performance.

What do you know about "Contie's", Barca's and RM's preparations? What makes you think they are pushing it to the extreme (aside from their nationality )?

About Djoker, I'm not sure. Though indeed he's not as blatantly muscular as Nadal, his winning streak is quite out of this world and comparable to that of, say, Gilbert. It's quite appropriate to be suspicious of his uprising.

The man was the world no. 3 and a slam winner with dodgy fitness. It's not so surprising that he's dominating with that issue taken care of.

The improvement in his results were dramatic, and sudden. I would even say unprecedented for a veteran athlete.

A 23 yo veteran. These large improvements aren't uncommon at all. Not in tennis, nor in other sports. Just a few examples from tennis:

Federer in 2004
Soderling in 2009
Fish in 2010
Melzer in 2010
Murray in 2008
Verdasco in 2009

...and so on.

Djokovic gets singled out because he improved from a higher level, to a higher level, than the others. Well, except for Federer but he's immune to such accusations.

He certainly does not look like the beat up player that wanted to fire his coach right after the 2010 US Open final (where he got his behind handed back to him by the very same player he now beats in every surface).

That final made him realize he needed to get stronger and fitter. Nadal created the monster.

 

[Gingerale]

Hitch, what you say about "taken to the back room" that's what i imagine. It really is tough to know much about the history of doping in tennis or the facts at present.

What I read of Andre's book left me scratching my head. It was the 90's. I want to know about EPO in tennis. I'm a big Federer fan but I always wonder watching him. Maybe an autologous blood infusion regime? Of course Federer's predecessors like Sampras I wonder about too. Will lightning strike me?

Nadal came along and he really did grow big! then came his PRP knee treatments in 2009 - the miracle. I'm not knocking the treatment. But as I understand, lots of different things can go into an injection other than platelet rich plasma

And if I made the above comments a tennis forum other than the one Andynonomous generously posted, I'd get banned for trolling.

I don't see how tennis will clean up with its code of silence and present myths surrounding the biggest names. What was sad is that Djokovic could not keep up with Nadal in 2010. Nadal's performance last US Open was the most suspicious of all of his GS wins. His is a consistent serve but it's an awkward motion and not smooth like Federer's or an effective ace weapon. Nadal suddenly had a rocket serve just in time to win his 1st US Open. I'm still mystified really. His US Open rocket serve has rarely made an appearance in his serving since. Maybe it will again this US Open?

The tables really did turn in 2011. Djokovic has owned Nadal.

Djokovic's Australian Open 2008 was assisted of course, as Federer was suffering from mono and Nadal wasn't officially a hard court specialist...yet. (I type this with tongue in cheek). It's the usual excuses. But Djokovic didn't go on a "run" after winning his 1st GS. His performances were more normal if compared to Federer and especially to what Nadal achieved in 2008.

lol, right. Gonzo and Roddick are tranquil and Murray training harder than anyone else. Gonzo is another favorite but he's disappearing. Fortunately there is Fabio Fognini.

What? Nadal not drinking for the 1st hour training of a session is why he's so muscular. Missed that one. That's a tidbit i could share...do you have a link?

 

[T_S_A_R]

does anyone see any similarities between federer and cancellera?

if they both proven to be prepared by the same doctor(s) i would not be suprised.

 

[The Hitch]

What? Nadal not drinking for the 1st hour training of a session is why he's so muscular. Missed that one. That's a tidbit i could share...do you have a link?

Commentators keep saying it. Apparently they heard it from Uncle tony.

Of course they never said it would give him big muscles or anything, I added that for sarcasm, but its used often as an example of how hard he trains which is the excuse given for his super physicality and stamina.

 

[movingtarget]

Commentators keep saying it. Apparently they heard it from Uncle tony.

Of course they never said it would give him big muscles or anything, I added that for sarcasm, but its used often as an example of how hard he trains which is the excuse given for his super physicality and stamina.

According to McEnroe, Nadal will not have a long career because of the way he trains and plays. He believes his body won't stand up to the punishment. It's hard to believe Nadal and Federer are the same height. When you see them standing together, you realise how muscular Nadal is compared to most other tennis players. Maybe Nadal will have to cut back his schedule to prolong his career if McEnroe's theory holds true. I see nothing strange about Djokovic's emergence. He has been in the top 4 or 5 for a long time and is still only a young man plus he has a very different playing style to Federer and Nadal. Nadal's injury problems and Federer's being less consistent that he used to be are also helping the Serb.

 

[Andynonomous]

This guy seems to be suggesting (sarcastically) that Nadal's mannerisms are suggestive of doping. Anybody know what specifically he is talking about ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr9tYI9D8jc


Here's another one by an Aussie cyclist :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_udI8dln2gY

 

[SeriousSam]

Mannerism are up there with bloated faces and aggressive attitudes as amongst the most reliable indicators of doping.

 

[bewildered]

This guy seems to be suggesting (sarcastically) that Nadal's mannerisms are suggestive of doping. Anybody know what specifically he is talking about ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lr9tYI9D8jc


Here's another one by an Aussie cyclist :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_udI8dln2gY

Nadal is said to have OCD, goes thru the same ritual before every serve (pulls pants out of ****, sniffs fingers, puts hair behind ears both sides etc) he also lines his drink bottles up so they are in line with each other when he is on the court). He does the same things always in the same order. This is why it takes him so long between serves and most umpires are afraid to give him a warning for it, perhaps because he has OCD.

Not indicative of anything other than OCD IMO

http://www.smh.com.au/sport/tennis/doctor-warns-against-trivialising-rafael-nadals-oncourt-routines-20140121-316w8.html

 

[kingjr]

Most tennis players have some sort of ritual they go through, with Nadal it's just a bit extreme

 

[HappyCycling]

Not sure why people are suggesting Federer is a big doper here. Sure, I imagine at some point his career involved drugs, or even still does. But his performances have always been in the realm of plausibility, he's always fatigued even at his peak. He's nothing like Djoker or Nadal in terms of ridiculousness.

 

[kingjr]

Not sure why people are suggesting Federer is a big doper here. Sure, I imagine at some point his career involved drugs, or even still does. But his performances have always been in the realm of plausibility, he's always fatigued even at his peak. He's nothing like Djoker or Nadal in terms of ridiculousness.

Maybe he's just not as talented physically. PED's only help you so much.

 

[HappyCycling]

Federer used to be lightning quick and very fit, but the thing is he was that good in his prime, and just so efficient in ending points quickly that he never had to rely on the same supreme fitness that a Nadal, Djokovic or Murray has to. The only strange thing about Federer is he barely sweats... but that could just be natural.

 

[SeriousSam]

You know what's great for injury prevention while still putting in the training to remain at a very high level of fitness and playing ability all year long, increasing your chance to achieve incredible consistency records such as never missing a slam, always going far such as the semis, and never getting injured?

Warming down. And PEDS. There is too much emphasis on 'superhuman' spectacular feats such as Nadal and Djokovic running down every ball after playing 5 hours. Peds are great for that, but they're great for pretty much every aspect of a physically demanding sport.

 

[Andynonomous]

Funny how Nadal only has his OCD/manerisms when he is playing.


Looks a LOT more like stimulants to me.

 

[The Hitch]

Not sure why people are suggesting Federer is a big doper here. Sure, I imagine at some point his career involved drugs, or even still does. But his performances have always been in the realm of plausibility, he's always fatigued even at his peak. He's nothing like Djoker or Nadal in terms of ridiculousness.

bernhard kohls performancws were within the realm of possibility. More so than federers even. So were Sayers and that of many others.

 

[bewildered]

the fact that he does the same things in the same order says to me it's not stimulants.

Fed may have doped but a lot of his earlier domination came when there were no real rivals in their prime (apart from a young Nadal). Nadal has always been way more physical. Djok and Murray (in the last 3-4 years only) too. The other 3 are way more suspect due to energy levels/fitness/strength. If they were all equal in that regard fed would trounce them all IMO