Nadal/Tennis doping

[350Watts]

ITF testing is a joke, in quantity and scope. Lets compare 2008 numbers, the UCI comes in at around 13,000 total tests (almost 1:1 in and out of competition) while the ITF did about 2,000 (95% in competition).

 

[Ferminal]

Match-fixing has been the main problem for the image of tennis lately, if no one ever tests positive/dies, why would the administrators have a doping issue

 

[350Watts]

Match-fixing has been the main problem for the image of tennis lately, if no one ever tests positive/dies, why would the administrators have a doping issue

That had long been baseball's position. "if we don't test for it no one can turn up positive".

 

[skidmark]

Disturbingly true. I have this sick feeling in my gut that even if someone fell of their bike and died right on TV in the middle of the Tour and was found doped to the gills, after all the hubbub died down, not a whole lot would actually be changed.

Well, it happened in 1968, and look how much things have changed since then...

 

[Anonymous]

As I posted before somewhere else, I don't think FIFA (or the NFL/MLB/NBA/PGA, any big league with tons of money) are that concerned about seriously stopping doping. As long as competition is good, and no one drops dead right there on the pitch, it's not a serious issue to them.

I think you are spot on here. Personally I don't believe any sporting goverment authority wants to fully eradicate doping, as it is too costly (i.e. for a government, an optimal crime rate is above zero), and may even result in the sport looking worse than it is (i.e. cycling looks bad if they catch cheats, and looks bad if they don't - its a lose-lose situation for the UCI).

From the authority's perspective, their is an optimal level of doping, probably about where you suggested - to protect the health (and life) of the athletes. Catching cheats beyond that is costly and damaging to the image of the sport. Obviously, from an ethical perspective the governing body wants zero cheats, but from a 'how-do-we-balance-the-books' perspective, it's a different story.

He is considerably younger than his top opponents (Federer), but I agree, he does not have a typical tennis player's build. If only one of his arms were big I might be less skeptical.

In his defence, Nadal 'looks' bigger than he actually is, and his left arm is definately bigger than his right, it's just not as noticable as the arm difference of the skinny Federer.

Furthermore, it's hard to say whether or not he has a different physical structure/build to a "typical tennis player", because the same argument holds for cyclists. Thor Hushovd doesn't look much like Contador does he? Different types of tennis players have different builds, just like different types of cyclists

Agassi, short and almost stocky, compared to the tall and strong Safin, the skinny Federer or the ripped Nadal. All four players had/have very different styles of tennis, and therefore seemingly different builds.

That said, i'm not saying he is clean, those are just my 'defence lawyer' arguments..

 

[al_pacino]

A certain reasoning behind the inbalance between in and out of competition testing can be partly explained by the season the players take part in. The season ends 29th of November and the first Grand Slam starts the 19th of January with warm ups starting two weeks earlier, leaving not a lot of "out of competition" time.

 

[pmcg76]

Dont know if anybody seen the Ireland v France World Cup play-off tonight. The game was level and in extra-time when French striker Thierry Henry blatantly handled the ball twice in the build-up to the goal that gave France the victory. It was so blatant yet the officials missed it and Ireland were dumped out of the World Cup. Did Henry admit to what he done, did he hell?

Afterwards, Irish player Kevin Doyle was asked about the incident, he said it was a blatant handball and Ireland had been cheated but he didnt blame Henry, he said it was an instinctive action and any pro footballer would have done the same. Ometra, its in all sports.

 

[DavidVilla7]

Stop posting this crap about Nadal and real and Barca also Contador please.
They have nothing to do with doping.

Barca? hahha I never knew that doping can give you technique class.

 

[sherer]

that's hadly the same thing as in football everyone can see on TV when you cheat where as if you dope no one can see that.

Stretching things a bit too far but it does seem these days that sports are no longer played by people with any sportsmanship

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

From what I've been told is that Nadal is a Fuentes client.

Told by whom?

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Almost amusing that Nadal spoke out last week critical of Agassi's admission.

I don't trust many of the top tennis players, male or female. ATP has very lax testing as is, players can even refuse one test per year. Imagine that, a tester shows up to Contador's door looking for a sample during the Tour, and he says "not today, thank you. Now go away" and they have to leave.

Agree that cycling gets the short end of the stick with all the leaks, announcements, etc. But you have to admit, a great deal of this we brought upon ourselves.

That's not true. They are allowed to miss 2 out of competition tests in 18 months like everyone else under the whereabouts system. Nadal doesn't like the whereabouts system, btw. Nor does Murray and the Williams sisters.

 

[Animal]

Barca? hahha I never knew that doping can give you technique class.

Yes. Because someone has said that haven't they?

 

[Blakeslee]

I follow tennis as well as cycling and after all I have seen with cycling it is hard not to imagine that tennis does not have a large performance enhancing drug problem considering how comparatively weak their testing program is. Nadal is an obvious target for suspicion due to his astounding fitness and visibly sculpted physique. Every time I hear John McEnroe talk about the increased speed of Nadal's serving which enabled him to be competitive beyond the clay courts I have to cringe a bit.

There are certainly other players beyond Nadal worthy of suspicion, including Roger Federer. Federer is not as visibly built as Nadal, but his fitness level is certainly up on the same astounding level as Nadal's is. The pace Federer can put on the ball from all areas of the court also gives me pause.

I was watching a bit of Federer's match today with Soderling, another player whose play definitely raises suspicions. The sheer pace he was hitting the ball with certainly raised eyebrows, particularly on clay. Similar to Nadal, Soderling is another player I remember McEnroe making comments about the astonishing jump in fitness level and how much harder he has been hitting the ball over the last two years.

It is disappointing as a fan of both sports to have to think about these issues. I have enjoyed watching some of the spectacular matches between Federer and Nadal and watching some of the great cycling performances like we saw from Spartacus in Flanders and Roubaix this year, it is unfortunate that part of remembering these great sporting events involves wondering whether the athletes had cheated.

Does anyone know if there is specific information linking Nadal to Operation Puerto? I have always wondered whether Nadal's name comes up in the Puerto discussion just by virtue of being a prominent Spanish athlete at the time or if there is anything more substantial behind the rumors.

 

[luckyboy]

I remember someone saying that he dropped out of some tournament around the time Puerto broke..

 

[La Vie Claire]

I was watching a bit of Federer's match today with Soderling, another player whose play definitely raises suspicions. The sheer pace he was hitting the ball with certainly raised eyebrows, particularly on clay. Similar to Nadal, Soderling is another player I remember McEnroe making comments about the astonishing jump in fitness level and how much harder he has been hitting the ball over the last two years.

Speaking of McEnroe, I recall years ago after he retired for a year or so and made a comeback, his upper body was huge (for a tennis player). I thought something was fishy. Well years later, his ex-wife Tatum O'Neal revealed that he was using steroids. The story never gained any traction I think b/c of the whole bitter, druggie, opportunistic ex-wife explanation proffered by McEnroe.

 

[icefire]

I remember someone saying that he dropped out of some tournament around the time Puerto broke..

That would have made Roger Federer much happier, as in May 2006 when Puerto broke they were about to start the French Open

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Speaking of McEnroe, I recall years ago after he retired for a year or so and made a comeback, his upper body was huge (for a tennis player). I thought something was fishy. Well years later, his ex-wife Tatum O'Neal revealed that he was using steroids. The story never gained any traction I think b/c of the whole bitter, druggie, opportunistic ex-wife explanation proffered by McEnroe.

1. McEnroe was always skinny as hell.
2. They were corticosteroids.

 

[luckyboy]

That would have made Roger Federer much happier, as in May 2006 when Puerto broke they were about to start the French Open

It was something like that anyway. Anyway, it's tennis - I don't care.

 

[Hawkwood]

I think there is an institutional racism in the doping enforcement. See in tennis, all the Argentinians get popped for stimulants. Only others who got popped for stimulatns were Greg Rusedski who I believe got off, and Petr Korda for a steroid.

I believe Rudsedski's successful defence was that he was given the dope by a Tennis Federation trainer as part of the Federation's own `training' regime!

There was a leading French woman player who told the French press in the late 1990s that she'd been on steroids, result no adverse coverage whatsoever. as far as I can remember.

 

[Señor_Contador]

Novak Djokovic

Come on! The guy deserves his own thread by now!

Guy was inconsistent, unable to beat the likes of Nadal or Federer two times in a row. All of a sudden changes his "diet", his diet "guru", gets a diplomatic passport from the government of Serbia and badda-bing! Beats everyone by a mile and a half, including the guys who dominated the sport for the past 10 years.

His transformation, in a matter of weeks, is nothing but astonishing.

 

[cineteq]

Come on! The guy deserves his own thread by now!

Guy was inconsistent, unable to beat the likes of Nadal or Federer two times in a row. All of a sudden changes his "diet", his diet "guru", gets a diplomatic passport from the government of Serbia and badda-bing! Beats everyone by a mile and a half, including the guys who dominated the sport for the past 10 years.

His transformation, in a matter of weeks, is nothing but astonishing.

Why in this cycling forum?

 

[palmerq]

Why in this cycling forum?

I don't know :S, but it seems there is some discussion about tennis players in here before, so I just merged them.

 

[hrotha]

Why in this cycling forum?

We talk about doping in other sports all the time. Skiing, football, tennis, athletics, what have you. Doping in professional sports is not an isolated phenomenon, usually the same products, methods and sometimes even doctors are involved.

 

[Andynonomous]

About Djokovic

The consensus of tennis fans is that Djokovic IS doping.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=380770


Djokovic gets some slack from tennis fans however, Why ?

- Unlike Nadal, Djokovic does have "tennis specific talent". He uses proper technique (gets strength from his legs, rather than just his upper body as Nadal does), and Djokovic plays "attacking tennis" (tries to end points quickly,rather than just run like a monkey back and forth at the baseline and wait for your opponent to make an error as Nadal does). Djokovic won a "Slam", (Australian open) likely before he went on his current "program". It is highly unlikely Nadal would win any tournaments without his "zumo", let alone a "slam" event.

- Djokovic probably doesn't juice as much as Nadal (he still shows obvious signs of fatigue after a long point). Nadal NEVER even breathes hard, in spite of his more grueling playing style and bulkier body. Djokovic is clearly not as strong as Nadal as well. Nadal CANNOT WIN WITHOUT A LARGE PHYSICAL ADVANTAGE over his opponent. This is VERY evident during the times Nadal is not fully "cycled up". Much like Armstrong always artificially "peaked" at the TDF, Nadal usually peaks in May, June, until early July, and there are many long periods in the past that Nadal didn't beat any top players.

- Djokovic is just playing "catch-up" to Nadal. Nadal, much like Lance Armstrong is widely believed to have "pushed the envelope" of doping. Where Armstrong had preferential access to a doping wizard (Ferrari), Nadal has access to the best doping doctors that Spain can supply (Angel Ruiz Cotorro, Mikel Sanchez). Of course, Nadal is also rumoured (yes, it was never confirmed, maybe because the Spanish judiciary buried the documentation from Puerto) to have been a client of the doping doctor Fuentes.

The consensus is that Djokovic is probably cheating, just not as much as Nadal is, therefore, he is probably more deserving. This is much like Cadel Evans vs Alberto Contador. Because Evans is probably clean(er) than Bertie, he is viewed as more deserving.

Note that tennis's testing regime, and tennis's transparency is even worse than cycling. If you think cycling is dirty, you can imagine how bad tennis is.

 

[sniper]

The consensus of tennis fans is that Djokovic IS doping.

http://tt.tennis-warehouse.com/showthread.php?t=380770


Djokovic gets some slack from tennis fans however, Why ?

- Unlike Nadal, Djokovic does have "tennis specific talent". He uses proper technique (gets strength from his legs, rather than just his upper body as Nadal does), and Djokovic plays "attacking tennis" (tries to end points quickly,rather than just run like a monkey back and forth at the baseline and wait for your opponent to make an error as Nadal does).

- Djokovic probably doesn't juice as much as Nadal (he still shows obvious signs of fatigue after a long point). Nadal NEVER even breathes hard, in spite of his more grueling playing style. Djokovic is clearly not as strong as Nadal as well. Nadal CANNOT WIN WITHOUT A LARGE PHYSICAL ADVANTAGE over his opponent. This is VERY evident during the times Nadal is not fully "cycled up". Much like Armstrong always artificially "peaked" at the TDF, Nadal usually peaks in May, June, until early July, and there are many long periods in the past that Nadal didn't beat any top players.

- Djokovic is just playing "catch-up" to Nadal. Nadal, much like Lance Armstrong is widely believed to have "pushed the envelope" of doping. Where Armstrong had preferential access to a doping wizard (Ferrari), Nadal has access to the best doping doctors that Spain can supply (Angel Ruiz Cotorro, Mikel Sanchez). Of course, Nadal is also rumoured (yes, it was never confirmed, maybe because the Spanish judiciary buried the documentation from Puerto) to have been a client of the doping doctor Fuentes.

The consensus is that Djokovic is probably cheating, just not as much as Nadal is, therefore, he is probably more deserving. This is much like Cadel Evans vs Alberto Contador. Because Evans is probably clean(er) than Bertie, he is viewed as more deserving.

good post.
Doping is still a matter of degree, and if guys are so blatantly pushing it to the extreme like LA, Contie and Nadal (but also Real Madrid and Barca over the past couple of years), that just aint fun no more. credibility is lost and it's just too obvious to buy.
Indeed, that is one reason (be it legit or not) why guys like Cadel and Federer are more acceptable winners: though they're doubtlessly on the juice as well, they manage to retain some credibility in their style of performance.

About Djoker, I'm not sure. Though indeed he's not as blatantly muscular as Nadal, his winning streak is quite out of this world and comparable to that of, say, Gilbert. It's quite appropriate to be suspicious of his uprising.