Teams & Riders Nairo Quintana discussion thread

[DFA123]

Re:

It’s not clear that he’s declining, it’s clear that Sky and Froome have his number.

I think he has a problem adopting the forceful position of a patrone. Once G attacked, someone in that group needed to take responsibility for bringing him back. Once Martin attacked, and pulled Froome clear, doubly so. It was a bit like how he just sat and watched Froome pedal away down the Peyresourde in 2016, waiting for someone else to react. You can’t wait for someone else, if you’re everybody else’s someone else.

I think the other factor that is ind of related to that, is just that it's really, really hard for a rider well below 60kg to win a GT, particularly the Tour. No-one close to Quintana's weight has come has close as he has to winning the Tour since Pantani. And I think maybe Heras and Cunego are the only other sub 60kg rider to have won any GT in the last 20 years, apart from Quintana.

For such light riders, it's a much bigger cost taking pulls into the wind on anything sub 8-9% gradient when your threshold power is about 70-80 watts less than that of your rivals. Plus you are always fighting against the inevitable time loss in the TT. Basically, it's just really hard to win a GT when you weigh 57kg.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Dump his contract and they can bring back some of good domestiques they've lost over the last two years or bring in new ones. They have lost almost all of their good domestiques. This team is now where near as strong as it was 2-3 years ago. They also have Soler who is getting better and stronger along with Carapaz who finished top 5 of this year's Giro with basically no support from the team at all. They don't need Quintana. I also believe he started his decline 2-3 years ago. He seems to have topped out in 2015. He has not gotten better and he really looks like he started a decline last year, and this seems to be showing more of the same.

But Quintana right now is way better than Soler and Carapaz in GTs. Whether he's declining or not, they have a huge improvement to make to get up to his level. He's also much better than Valverde and Landa at GTs. He won the Vuelta less than 2 years ago, and even in the disappointing last year he still finished 2nd in a GT. If the issue is that Movistar don't have enough quality domestiques, then surely they should be signing the domestiques to support Quintana, not to replace him.

 

[Von Mises]

Re: Re:

Froome fatigue ...are you all joking ...he is saying he is riding the Vuelta this year

Tough to see him win the Tour with the Giro in his legs. And he went DEEP in the Giro.

Froome seems to have this in the bag. No one literally no one can hold his wheel. Only time before G makes way for Froome in the yellow. This is going to be a real tough tour for Quintana. We are seeing the same thing again and again. Skytrain and Froome set a blistering pace on the last climb, Froome attacking and distancing Nairo in the final 3-5 kms and putting time into him in the first-second week and simply defending in the last week.

No matter how deep Froome has gone in Giro, I still think he is the strongest contender for the Tour. For Nairo it seems its all over. Might get a stage or two but not the yellow by any means - unless Froome crashes out but then G is still as strong as Froome.

So my hopes to see Nairo in the yellow are all but over. And I think tomorrow Froome will win big time on L'Alpe D'Huez - may even go in the yellow and definitely put more time into Quintana.

I'd be the most happiest person to be proved wrong on this. But it seems unlikely.....

I think today we've confirmed that Quintana has already started to decline in his abilities. I really hope Movistar moves on from him sooner rather than later. As far as I'm concerned this has to be his last shot at the Tour with Movistar.

Nonsense.

Quintana is only rider in recent years who has shown he can climb on par with Froome.
Today he showed what a nonsense is "Movistar has three leaders" talk.

He is very consistent and delivered a lot. Who else can be Movistar's leader?

 

[Koronin]

Re:

It’s not clear that he’s declining, it’s clear that Sky and Froome have his number.

I think he has a problem adopting the forceful position of a patrone. Once G attacked, someone in that group needed to take responsibility for bringing him back. Once Martin attacked, and pulled Froome clear, doubly so. It was a bit like how he just sat and watched Froome pedal away down the Peyresourde in 2016, waiting for someone else to react. You can’t wait for someone else, if you’re everybody else’s someone else.

He also doesn't have any leadership abilities and when Froome has attacked in the past he always looks around expecting someone else to do something or tell him what to do. We first saw that very explicitly in 2016 and are seeing it again now.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Dump his contract and they can bring back some of good domestiques they've lost over the last two years or bring in new ones. They have lost almost all of their good domestiques. This team is now where near as strong as it was 2-3 years ago. They also have Soler who is getting better and stronger along with Carapaz who finished top 5 of this year's Giro with basically no support from the team at all. They don't need Quintana. I also believe he started his decline 2-3 years ago. He seems to have topped out in 2015. He has not gotten better and he really looks like he started a decline last year, and this seems to be showing more of the same.

But Quintana right now is way better than Soler and Carapaz in GTs. Whether he's declining or not, they have a huge improvement to make to get up to his level. He's also much better than Valverde and Landa at GTs. He won the Vuelta less than 2 years ago, and even in the disappointing last year he still finished 2nd in a GT. If the issue is that Movistar don't have enough quality domestiques, then surely they should be signing the domestiques to support Quintana, not to replace him.

He ONLY won the Vuelta due to Contador and Valverde's plan in the ambush stage that worked to perfection. Because of Quintana's contract, they do NOT have the money to sign better domestiques. So as long as they are paying him they CANNOT pay top domestiques.

 

[Eclipse]

Too much hate today - Think he wasn't that far off. He made a mistake letting Froome and Martin go clear and he was never going to close down on the shallower stuff on his own but he seemed fairly comfortable up until then imo.

He won't win, too much to do, but this isn't the first time that Sky blow out everyone on a day like this early in the race and I'll not be surprised to see a few strong rides and a podium tilt before this Tour is over.

 

[SafeBet]

He won the Vuelta because he was the strongest climber in the race and because he seized the opportunity to join in when Contador attacked. You make it look like he was just lucky. He wasn't.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Dump his contract and they can bring back some of good domestiques they've lost over the last two years or bring in new ones. They have lost almost all of their good domestiques. This team is now where near as strong as it was 2-3 years ago. They also have Soler who is getting better and stronger along with Carapaz who finished top 5 of this year's Giro with basically no support from the team at all. They don't need Quintana. I also believe he started his decline 2-3 years ago. He seems to have topped out in 2015. He has not gotten better and he really looks like he started a decline last year, and this seems to be showing more of the same.

But Quintana right now is way better than Soler and Carapaz in GTs. Whether he's declining or not, they have a huge improvement to make to get up to his level. He's also much better than Valverde and Landa at GTs. He won the Vuelta less than 2 years ago, and even in the disappointing last year he still finished 2nd in a GT. If the issue is that Movistar don't have enough quality domestiques, then surely they should be signing the domestiques to support Quintana, not to replace him.

He ONLY won the Vuelta due to Contador and Valverde's plan in the ambush stage that worked to perfection. Because of Quintana's contract, they do NOT have the money to sign better domestiques. So as long as they are paying him they CANNOT pay top domestiques.

So, with good tactics and a bit of fortune he is strong enough to win a GT? Not sure I see what the problem is then. Because right now he looks to me the only Movistar rider capable of winning a GT in any way.

I think today could yet possibly be a blessing in disguise for the team. With Valverde now more or less out of the GC picture, he can fully commit to supporting Quintana rather than hedging his bets a bit. And he could certainly be a useful domestique in the third week if Sky shows any signs of cracking.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Dump his contract and they can bring back some of good domestiques they've lost over the last two years or bring in new ones. They have lost almost all of their good domestiques. This team is now where near as strong as it was 2-3 years ago. They also have Soler who is getting better and stronger along with Carapaz who finished top 5 of this year's Giro with basically no support from the team at all. They don't need Quintana. I also believe he started his decline 2-3 years ago. He seems to have topped out in 2015. He has not gotten better and he really looks like he started a decline last year, and this seems to be showing more of the same.

But Quintana right now is way better than Soler and Carapaz in GTs. Whether he's declining or not, they have a huge improvement to make to get up to his level. He's also much better than Valverde and Landa at GTs. He won the Vuelta less than 2 years ago, and even in the disappointing last year he still finished 2nd in a GT. If the issue is that Movistar don't have enough quality domestiques, then surely they should be signing the domestiques to support Quintana, not to replace him.

He ONLY won the Vuelta due to Contador and Valverde's plan in the ambush stage that worked to perfection. Because of Quintana's contract, they do NOT have the money to sign better domestiques. So as long as they are paying him they CANNOT pay top domestiques.

So, with good tactics and a bit of fortune he is strong enough to win a GT? Not sure I see what the problem is then. Because right now he looks to me the only Movistar rider capable of winning a GT in any way.

I think today could yet possibly be a blessing in disguise for the team. With Valverde now more or less out of the GC picture, he can fully commit to supporting Quintana rather than hedging his bets a bit. And he could certainly be a useful domestique in the third week if Sky shows any signs of cracking.

Actually if Valverde looses another minute or two he's going to go out in the break in the Pyrenees and go stage hunting. He will NEVER be a true domestique for anyone. He'll NEVER go into the red for anyone including himself. So you'll only ever get what you've already seen from him.

No he WAS good enough to win when Valverde and Contador both had strong teams that could pull off something. Movistar no longer has any kind of strong team like they did then and none of the other teams have a team as strong as what Contador's Tinkoff/Saxo team was that year. He has noticeably declined since that Vuelta.

 

[Ataraxus]

Re: Re:

Froome fatigue ...are you all joking ...he is saying he is riding the Vuelta this year

Tough to see him win the Tour with the Giro in his legs. And he went DEEP in the Giro.

Froome seems to have this in the bag. No one literally no one can hold his wheel. Only time before G makes way for Froome in the yellow. This is going to be a real tough tour for Quintana. We are seeing the same thing again and again. Skytrain and Froome set a blistering pace on the last climb, Froome attacking and distancing Nairo in the final 3-5 kms and putting time into him in the first-second week and simply defending in the last week.

No matter how deep Froome has gone in Giro, I still think he is the strongest contender for the Tour. For Nairo it seems its all over. Might get a stage or two but not the yellow by any means - unless Froome crashes out but then G is still as strong as Froome.

So my hopes to see Nairo in the yellow are all but over. And I think tomorrow Froome will win big time on L'Alpe D'Huez - may even go in the yellow and definitely put more time into Quintana.

I'd be the most happiest person to be proved wrong on this. But it seems unlikely.....

I think today we've confirmed that Quintana has already started to decline in his abilities. I really hope Movistar moves on from him sooner rather than later. As far as I'm concerned this has to be his last shot at the Tour with Movistar.

So strange. At 28 he should be entering his peak

There's a phenomenon called age doping in sports.
But there isn't a proper subforum to discuss this topic

 

[Forever The Best]

Lol
https://mobile.twitter.com/Mr_Chon/status/1019612598000603137

 

[Koronin]

Re:

He won the Vuelta because he was the strongest climber in the race and because he seized the opportunity to join in when Contador attacked. You make it look like he was just lucky. He wasn't.

He won the Vuelta because Contador and Valverde put together a great plan for an ambush.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Dump his contract and they can bring back some of good domestiques they've lost over the last two years or bring in new ones. They have lost almost all of their good domestiques. This team is now where near as strong as it was 2-3 years ago. They also have Soler who is getting better and stronger along with Carapaz who finished top 5 of this year's Giro with basically no support from the team at all. They don't need Quintana. I also believe he started his decline 2-3 years ago. He seems to have topped out in 2015. He has not gotten better and he really looks like he started a decline last year, and this seems to be showing more of the same.

But Quintana right now is way better than Soler and Carapaz in GTs. Whether he's declining or not, they have a huge improvement to make to get up to his level. He's also much better than Valverde and Landa at GTs. He won the Vuelta less than 2 years ago, and even in the disappointing last year he still finished 2nd in a GT. If the issue is that Movistar don't have enough quality domestiques, then surely they should be signing the domestiques to support Quintana, not to replace him.

He ONLY won the Vuelta due to Contador and Valverde's plan in the ambush stage that worked to perfection. Because of Quintana's contract, they do NOT have the money to sign better domestiques. So as long as they are paying him they CANNOT pay top domestiques.

So, with good tactics and a bit of fortune he is strong enough to win a GT? Not sure I see what the problem is then. Because right now he looks to me the only Movistar rider capable of winning a GT in any way.

I think today could yet possibly be a blessing in disguise for the team. With Valverde now more or less out of the GC picture, he can fully commit to supporting Quintana rather than hedging his bets a bit. And he could certainly be a useful domestique in the third week if Sky shows any signs of cracking.

Actually if Valverde looses another minute or two he's going to go out in the break in the Pyrenees and go stage hunting. He will NEVER be a true domestique for anyone. He'll NEVER go into the red for anyone including himself. So you'll only ever get what you've already seen from him.

Of course he will help the team. If Quintana is in with any chance of winning in the last week and Valverde went off stage hunting instead of helping to try to win the overall, he should be sacked. It would be a disgraceful thing to do in a team sport. But he obviously won't do that.

He wouldn't be allowed in the break anyway in that scenario.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

He won the Vuelta because he was the strongest climber in the race and because he seized the opportunity to join in when Contador attacked. You make it look like he was just lucky. He wasn't.

He won the Vuelta because Contador and Valverde put together a great plan for an ambush.

Why didn't Valverde just go through with the plan himself then, and win himself a second Vuelta?

If it was all about the plan, why did he need Quintana to do it?

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

He won the Vuelta because he was the strongest climber in the race and because he seized the opportunity to join in when Contador attacked. You make it look like he was just lucky. He wasn't.

He won the Vuelta because Contador and Valverde put together a great plan for an ambush.

Why didn't Valverde just go through with the plan himself then, and win himself a second Vuelta?

If it was all about the plan, why did he need Quintana to do it?

It was the day after Valverde had lost 10 minutes (for the record, I don't know where she gets the Valverde being the mastermind of that plan, though).

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

He won the Vuelta because he was the strongest climber in the race and because he seized the opportunity to join in when Contador attacked. You make it look like he was just lucky. He wasn't.

He won the Vuelta because Contador and Valverde put together a great plan for an ambush.

Why didn't Valverde just go through with the plan himself then, and win himself a second Vuelta?

If it was all about the plan, why did he need Quintana to do it?

It was the day after Valverde had lost 10 minutes (for the record, I don't know where she gets the Valverde being the mastermind of that plan, though).

Indeed. So the plan was only really a great plan, if there was a rider strong enough to execute it and then hold Froome off for the remainder of the race. And on the combined teams of Movistar and Trek, Quintana was the only one who was even close to being able to do so.

Which is why he is their GT leader and will remain so for the forseeable future I imagine.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

He won the Vuelta because he was the strongest climber in the race and because he seized the opportunity to join in when Contador attacked. You make it look like he was just lucky. He wasn't.

He won the Vuelta because Contador and Valverde put together a great plan for an ambush.

Why didn't Valverde just go through with the plan himself then, and win himself a second Vuelta?

If it was all about the plan, why did he need Quintana to do it?

It was the day after Valverde had lost 10 minutes (for the record, I don't know where she gets the Valverde being the mastermind of that plan, though).

Contador was most likely the mastermind, but he also couldn't have pulled it off himself. Thus talking to Valverde. Yeah, Valverde had lost about 10 minutes on the stage before so he was out of it. However he still had the team that could help Contador.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

He won the Vuelta because he was the strongest climber in the race and because he seized the opportunity to join in when Contador attacked. You make it look like he was just lucky. He wasn't.

He won the Vuelta because Contador and Valverde put together a great plan for an ambush.

Why didn't Valverde just go through with the plan himself then, and win himself a second Vuelta?

If it was all about the plan, why did he need Quintana to do it?

It was the day after Valverde had lost 10 minutes (for the record, I don't know where she gets the Valverde being the mastermind of that plan, though).

Indeed. So the plan was only really a great plan, if there was a rider strong enough to execute it and then hold Froome off for the remainder of the race. And on the combined teams of Movistar and Trek, Quintana was the only one who was even close to being able to do so.

Which is why he is their GT leader and will remain so for the forseeable future I imagine.

Valverde has been promised the Vuelta. Rumors in Spain are Quintana is breaking his contract and leaving at the end of the year. Rather that's true or not, who knows, but those are the rumors in Spain.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

He is clearly the strongest of the movistar trio and much better than the eternally overhyped Mikel Landa.

But today he was put in a difficult spot. If he was able to he should have been with Thomas. But I think he just didn't have the legs. And the people in his group (Bardet, Roglic, etc) all looked to him mainly to do the chasing. And he knew that would not have paid off. Looks further away from the Tour victory than ever.

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

He won the Vuelta because he was the strongest climber in the race and because he seized the opportunity to join in when Contador attacked. You make it look like he was just lucky. He wasn't.

He won the Vuelta because Contador and Valverde put together a great plan for an ambush.

Why didn't Valverde just go through with the plan himself then, and win himself a second Vuelta?

If it was all about the plan, why did he need Quintana to do it?

It was the day after Valverde had lost 10 minutes (for the record, I don't know where she gets the Valverde being the mastermind of that plan, though).

Contador was most likely the mastermind, but he also couldn't have pulled it off himself. Thus talking to Valverde. Yeah, Valverde had lost about 10 minutes on the stage before so he was out of it. However he still had the team that could help Contador.

But why not go with?

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

Dump his contract and they can bring back some of good domestiques they've lost over the last two years or bring in new ones. They have lost almost all of their good domestiques. This team is now where near as strong as it was 2-3 years ago. They also have Soler who is getting better and stronger along with Carapaz who finished top 5 of this year's Giro with basically no support from the team at all. They don't need Quintana. I also believe he started his decline 2-3 years ago. He seems to have topped out in 2015. He has not gotten better and he really looks like he started a decline last year, and this seems to be showing more of the same.

But Quintana right now is way better than Soler and Carapaz in GTs. Whether he's declining or not, they have a huge improvement to make to get up to his level. He's also much better than Valverde and Landa at GTs. He won the Vuelta less than 2 years ago, and even in the disappointing last year he still finished 2nd in a GT. If the issue is that Movistar don't have enough quality domestiques, then surely they should be signing the domestiques to support Quintana, not to replace him.

He ONLY won the Vuelta due to Contador and Valverde's plan in the ambush stage that worked to perfection. Because of Quintana's contract, they do NOT have the money to sign better domestiques. So as long as they are paying him they CANNOT pay top domestiques.

So, with good tactics and a bit of fortune he is strong enough to win a GT? Not sure I see what the problem is then. Because right now he looks to me the only Movistar rider capable of winning a GT in any way.

I think today could yet possibly be a blessing in disguise for the team. With Valverde now more or less out of the GC picture, he can fully commit to supporting Quintana rather than hedging his bets a bit. And he could certainly be a useful domestique in the third week if Sky shows any signs of cracking.

Actually if Valverde looses another minute or two he's going to go out in the break in the Pyrenees and go stage hunting. He will NEVER be a true domestique for anyone. He'll NEVER go into the red for anyone including himself. So you'll only ever get what you've already seen from him.

Of course he will help the team. If Quintana is in with any chance of winning in the last week and Valverde went off stage hunting instead of helping to try to win the overall, he should be sacked. It would be a disgraceful thing to do in a team sport. But he obviously won't do that.

He wouldn't be allowed in the break anyway in that scenario.[/quote]


Except he and Sagan are the two riders in the peloton that can do whatever they want without repercussions. Two years ago he was talking about loosing time so he could go stage hunting, he just never got around to loosing time. The team's actual response to that was, he can do what he wants. Also you may have missed it when Mr Unzue said last summer when he got hurt that he has an open contract and can race for them for as long as he wants to. That there will always be a place for him. He said Valverde is the only rider he's ever given that to.

 

[Koronin]

Re: Re:

He won the Vuelta because he was the strongest climber in the race and because he seized the opportunity to join in when Contador attacked. You make it look like he was just lucky. He wasn't.

He won the Vuelta because Contador and Valverde put together a great plan for an ambush.

Why didn't Valverde just go through with the plan himself then, and win himself a second Vuelta?

If it was all about the plan, why did he need Quintana to do it?

It was the day after Valverde had lost 10 minutes (for the record, I don't know where she gets the Valverde being the mastermind of that plan, though).

Contador was most likely the mastermind, but he also couldn't have pulled it off himself. Thus talking to Valverde. Yeah, Valverde had lost about 10 minutes on the stage before so he was out of it. However he still had the team that could help Contador.

But why not go with?[/quote]


Truthfully I don't know why he didn't go, because that move would have also given him his overall top 10 that he had wanted. It's possible he didn't have the legs to go with that move. Remember we are talking the day after he lost 10 minutes and he was in his 3rd GT of the year, which he has admitted a couple of times that he was very close to climbing off the bike and abandoning that Vuelta.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Valverde has been promised the Vuelta. Rumors in Spain are Quintana is breaking his contract and leaving at the end of the year. Rather that's true or not, who knows, but those are the rumors in Spain.

Sounds like bs to me - probably some internet nonsense. I certainly haven't had any such rumours in Spain, and such things tend to travel fast and loud over here.

 

[tobydawq]

Re: Re:

Truthfully I don't know why he didn't go, because that move would have also given him his overall top 10 that he had wanted. It's possible he didn't have the legs to go with that move. Remember we are talking the day after he lost 10 minutes and he was in his 3rd GT of the year, which he has admitted a couple of times that he was very close to climbing off the bike and abandoning that Vuelta.

Yes but he was good enough to ride hard tempo, getting rid of all the Sky riders, isolating Froome. It was exceptionally smart even though it at the time looked like mutiny but that was what killed Sky.

I don't think that was a part of a plan before the stage because it's impossible to plan for such an unlikely eventuality. So maybe he hadn't heard of any plan of which there might not have been one. Otherwise he would surely have gone up the road.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Except he and Sagan are the two riders in the peloton that can do whatever they want without repercussions. Two years ago he was talking about loosing time so he could go stage hunting, he just never got around to loosing time. The team's actual response to that was, he can do what he wants. Also you may have missed it when Mr Unzue said last summer when he got hurt that he has an open contract and can race for them for as long as he wants to. That there will always be a place for him. He said Valverde is the only rider he's ever given that to.

I think you're doing Valverde a bit of a dis-service here. I agree completely that he could do whatever he wanted within Movistar, but I just don't think he would, I think he has more character than that. If Quintana was in with a chance of winning, then I'm sure Valverde would work hard for him - not go chasing stages.

I'm sure Sagan would have sacrificed himself as well if Contador would ever have been in a position to challenge for the Tour (in fact I think he did in one of the cobbled stages).