Teams & Riders Nairo Quintana discussion thread

[dacooley]

Re: Re:

Don't think you can compare riders like that with Quintana or Pantani, who can win mountain stages and GCs at any time of year, on almost any kind of climb.

little amendment is on any kind of a very difficult climb.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I'd say peak Froome is difficult to overlook, but peak Froome is quite an ephemeral creature that only exists for one or two days every year

Quintana, in contrast, seems to always be the best or very nearly the best climber regardless of form.

Exactly. Froome falls under the same category as Armstrong. Almost unbeatable for the one or two mtf they target each year and reach a super peak for, but significantly below that level for the rest of the year.

Don't think you can compare riders like that with Quintana or Pantani, who can win mountain stages and GCs at any time of year, on almost any kind of climb.

This post makes no sense at all. Naming Pantani in this context is beyond silly.

The guy with 16 victories on MTF in grand tours?

 

[Singer01]

Re: Re:

So, the last ITT will be a flat one, which will be even harmful to Quintana, which means he will have to go deep to win this. I guess he can say farewell to the double, if not even to the Giro.

The double is a fairy story for the 21st century.

The Giro Tour one is, but i think Tour Vuelta is doable (clearly, as Froome wins last year without that split).

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

I'd say peak Froome is difficult to overlook, but peak Froome is quite an ephemeral creature that only exists for one or two days every year

Quintana, in contrast, seems to always be the best or very nearly the best climber regardless of form.

Exactly. Froome falls under the same category as Armstrong. Almost unbeatable for the one or two mtf they target each year and reach a super peak for, but significantly below that level for the rest of the year.

Don't think you can compare riders like that with Quintana or Pantani, who can win mountain stages and GCs at any time of year, on almost any kind of climb.

This post makes no sense at all. Naming Pantani in this context is beyond silly.

The guy with 16 victories on MTF in grand tours?

Please try to be coherent. You said something about winning mountain sages and GCs any time of year. How Pantani compares favourably to Froome here, only you can explain. Maybe.

 

[Dekker_Tifosi]

In Burgos on a flat ITT in 2015 he lost 1'30, now on a hilly ITT in 2017 he loses nearly 3 minutes to the same man.

Simply a below par ITT for Nairo. He will go berserk now to win the Giro, but that might cost him the Tour. Any plan of winning the Giro in 'easy' mode is gone now.

 

[PremierAndrew]

Re: Re:

I'd say peak Froome is difficult to overlook, but peak Froome is quite an ephemeral creature that only exists for one or two days every year

Quintana, in contrast, seems to always be the best or very nearly the best climber regardless of form.

Exactly. Froome falls under the same category as Armstrong. Almost unbeatable for the one or two mtf they target each year and reach a super peak for, but significantly below that level for the rest of the year.

Don't think you can compare riders like that with Quintana or Pantani, who can win mountain stages and GCs at any time of year, on almost any kind of climb.

Since 2015, he's been keeping himself fresh for a Tour-Vuelta attempt each year

 

[Red Rick]

Re:

In Burgos on a flat ITT in 2015 he lost 1'30, now on a hilly ITT in 2017 he loses nearly 3 minutes to the same man.

Simply a below par ITT for Nairo. He will go berserk now to win the Giro, but that might cost him the Tour. Any plan of winning the Giro in 'easy' mode is gone now.

You have to look at the entire field though. This is a better field and Dumoulin recked it. There's no doubt this TT is better than the Vuelta one.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

I'd say peak Froome is difficult to overlook, but peak Froome is quite an ephemeral creature that only exists for one or two days every year

Quintana, in contrast, seems to always be the best or very nearly the best climber regardless of form.

Exactly. Froome falls under the same category as Armstrong. Almost unbeatable for the one or two mtf they target each year and reach a super peak for, but significantly below that level for the rest of the year.

Don't think you can compare riders like that with Quintana or Pantani, who can win mountain stages and GCs at any time of year, on almost any kind of climb.

Since 2015, he's been keeping himself fresh for a Tour-Vuelta attempt each year

So do you think Froome had a similar level in his Tour of Oman win or Tirreno Adriatico wins in 2013 as he did in his wins on Ventoux and Ax-3 Domaines? In my opinion, he was significantly below the level of his Tour wins in the rest of the year - sure, he picked up a few wins. But I think he has to peak a lot more to get his super level than Quintana does.

 

[yaco]

Quintana's team can do damage in the remaining mountainous stages of the Giro - It may be enough to get him over the line.

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

In Burgos on a flat ITT in 2015 he lost 1'30, now on a hilly ITT in 2017 he loses nearly 3 minutes to the same man.

Simply a below par ITT for Nairo. He will go berserk now to win the Giro, but that might cost him the Tour. Any plan of winning the Giro in 'easy' mode is gone now.

You have to look at the entire field though. This is a better field and Dumoulin recked it. There's no doubt this TT is better than the Vuelta one.

Much earlier in the race as well. There's only been two proper mountains; most of the other stages were soft pedalled and also two rest days so far. Everyone should still be really fresh which means the great recovery of guys like Quintana or Nibali is a tiny factor at the moment.

 

[Scarponi]

Re: Re:

I'd say peak Froome is difficult to overlook, but peak Froome is quite an ephemeral creature that only exists for one or two days every year

Quintana, in contrast, seems to always be the best or very nearly the best climber regardless of form.

Exactly. Froome falls under the same category as Armstrong. Almost unbeatable for the one or two mtf they target each year and reach a super peak for, but significantly below that level for the rest of the year.

Don't think you can compare riders like that with Quintana or Pantani, who can win mountain stages and GCs at any time of year, on almost any kind of climb.

This post makes no sense at all. Naming Pantani in this context is beyond silly.

The guy with 16 victories on MTF in grand tours?

Please try to be coherent. You said something about winning mountain sages and GCs any time of year. How Pantani compares favourably to Froome here, only you can explain. Maybe.

Regardless of technicalities in his post winning a Giro and Tour Mtf in a year is better then a stage in the catalunya and tour for example

 

[Scarponi]

Re: Re:

So, the last ITT will be a flat one, which will be even harmful to Quintana, which means he will have to go deep to win this. I guess he can say farewell to the double, if not even to the Giro.

The double is a fairy story for the 21st century.

The Giro Tour one is, but i think Tour Vuelta is doable (clearly, as Froome wins last year without that split).

I think even Giro/Vuelta won't be done again for a while or at best once in 20 years

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

Regardless of technicalities in his post winning a Giro and Tour Mtf in a year is better then a stage in the catalunya and tour for example

Remind me,when was the last time Froome rode the Giro again? (How many times did Pantani ride the Vuelta? What were his results?) Do you think Froome would not be able to win a mountain stage in both the Giro and the Tour if he tried? And what technicalities do you mean?

 

[DFA123]

Re: Re:

Regardless of technicalities in his post winning a Giro and Tour Mtf in a year is better then a stage in the catalunya and tour for example

Exactly. Pantani pretty much only entered GTs. And he won on the toughest climbs regularly whenever he entered them. He never showed the same crazy swings in form on mountains like Froome and Armstrong throughout the season. At least not until his form and career nosedived once he was chucked out of the Giro.

 

[kingjr]

Re: Re:

Regardless of technicalities in his post winning a Giro and Tour Mtf in a year is better then a stage in the catalunya and tour for example

Exactly. Pantani pretty much only entered GTs. And he won on the toughest climbs regularly whenever he entered them. He never showed the same crazy swings in form on mountains like Froome and Armstrong throughout the season. At least not until his form and career nosedived once he was chucked out of the Giro.

So... he pretty much only entered GT's translates to this?

can win mountain stages and GCs at any time of year, on almost any kind of climb.

I haven't seen much in terms of crazy swings in form on mountains by Froome lately. He is competitive pretty much every race he enters since 2012. That he's at his best at the Tour is to be expected. His competition wasn't exactly stellar either, with Contador in bad form, Quintana either in service to Valverde or surprisingly mediocre like last year.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

No need to overreact. He can win the Giro and the Tour this year.

He wont win neither.

Wanna do an avatar bet? I say he at least wins one.

 

[sir fly]

Re: Re:

No need to overreact. He can win the Giro and the Tour this year.

He wont win neither.

Wanna do an avatar bet? I say he at least wins one.

I'll do it if you say it's the Tour he'll win.

 

[Pantani_lives]

I don't like to say I told you so, but I told you so. 69.1K of time trial is a big problem for a small climber. He needs to take at least four minutes in the remaining mountain stages. The best chance to take several minutes in one day is the queen stage next tuesday. Movistar should send someone in front early, so that Quintana can jump to his teammate on the Stelvio. It's not a MTF, so it would be ideal if he still had someone with him in the last 20K, e.g. Pierre Rolland or Landa, and let him win the stage in exchange for cooperation. That seems the best way to take a lot of time. The MTFs won't be enough to take four minutes, so he needs a big attack if he wants to win the Giro.

 

[Scarponi]

Re: Re:

Regardless of technicalities in his post winning a Giro and Tour Mtf in a year is better then a stage in the catalunya and tour for example

Remind me,when was the last time Froome rode the Giro again? (How many times did Pantani ride the Vuelta? What were his results?) Do you think Froome would not be able to win a mountain stage in both the Giro and the Tour if he tried? And what technicalities do you mean?

I apologise I wasn't comparing to froome but just in general. Winning a stage in both would have rate higher then 95% of other Riders results. E.g valverde this year would easily be better

 

[Valv.Piti]

Its time to show how big of a champion he is. Put some riders up ahead, show cojenes and jump early and knockout Dumoulin on the hardest stage of 2017. Maybe Dumoulin will show resistance and not lose much time if any at all, there are still hard stages left. Stage 18 could also be absolute carnage of ridden hard from the start.

Quintana was a bit disappointed, but he can't defy nature. What he did today was decent. And he can win GTs riding decent time trials if he just puts enough time into everyone else in the mountains!

 

[Escarabajo]

I have always defended Quintana's defensive style of riding at times, but I don't think that he can afford to do that anymore. Every stage would be an opportunity. Stage like tomorrow is an opportunity.

If he thinks about recovery, just think that his rivals will recover as well. If he is hurting in a mountain, then his rivals are hurting more.

And forget 100% about the double completely. Otherwise he will not win this one. Worry about that later.

Some people talk too much about the Stelvio stage. But waiting for that stage could be too risky. Many things can happen. And you don't think Dumoulin would be at least prepared. What happens if he waits for that stage and then fails to take significant time. He will then start to stress and Dumoulin will gain confidence.

I guess many people don't see it like this but I would not risk it.

 

[Mr.White]

Re:

I have always defended Quintana's defensive style of riding at times, but I don't think that he can afford to do that anymore. Every stage would be an opportunity. Stage like tomorrow is an opportunity.

If he thinks about recovery, just think that his rivals will recover as well. If he is hurting in a mountain, then his rivals are hurting more.

And forget 100% about the double completely. Otherwise he will not win this one. Worry about that later.

Some people talk too much about the Stelvio stage. But waiting for that stage could be too risky. Many things can happen. And you don't think Dumoulin would be at least prepared. What happens if he waits for that stage and then fails to take significant time. He will then start to stress and Dumoulin will gain confidence.

I guess many people don't see it like this but I would not risk it.

You're 100% right.

 

[Jspear]

Re: Re:

No need to overreact. He can win the Giro and the Tour this year.

He wont win neither.

Wanna do an avatar bet? I say he at least wins one.

I'll do it if you say it's the Tour he'll win.

lol I'm not that confident. I still strongly believe he'll win he Giro and I think he has a much better chance of winning the Tour than AC did in 2015.

 

[sir fly]

I think Quintana and Movi will be very patient waiting for Dumo to crack.
Quintana will need two stages in reserve if Dumo doesn't crack following Movi.

 

[DFA123]

Re:

I think Quintana and Movi will be very patient waiting for Dumo to crack.
Quintana will need two stages in reserve if Dumo doesn't crack following Movi.

Exactly, there are three stages in the final week (Stelvio, Dolomites and Grappa) where they have possibilities to absolute destroy Dumoulin, the way that Astana did at the Vuelta. (And Astana only had one stage in which to do - a significantly easier one than the three here). The plan working on just one of those would basically remove him from the GC equation in one stage.

They certainly don't need to panic and try to force things to happen in stages like tomorrow. Sure, go for it if opportunity presents, but Quintana is currently a bigger favourite for the race than he was at the start (at least with the bookies), so no need to be tearing up the strategy and plans yet.