National Football League

[gobuck]

Under inflated or overinflated: From NFL.com

"Just in case you were wondering how common it is for NFL teams to mess with the amount of air that goes in or comes out of an official game ball, the Internet has uncovered an intriguing clip that seems to indicate Aaron Rodgers has admitted to “cheating” this way in the past"

Cheating is cheating!, or is the NFL like war?

FOXBOROUGH, Mass. -- With all the talk about deflated footballs, an exchange on the CBS broadcast of the New England Patriots' road game against the Green Bay Packers on Nov. 30 seems timely to pass along.

Early in the third quarter, Jim Nantz and Phil Simms had the following discussion on the broadcast:
Rodgers
Nantz: We talked to [Aaron] Rodgers about 'How do you like your footballs?' Because, you know, you can rub them up before the game. [Phil], you really kind of created that for everybody else in the league.

Simms: I don’t know if I did, because the quarterbacks got tired of them complaining. But he said something [that] was unique: 'I like to push the limit to how much air we can put in the football, even go over what they allow you to do and see if the officials take air out of it.' Because he thinks it’s easier for him to grip. He likes them tight. Of course, he’s got very big hands and you can tell that by watching him play.

Nantz: You’ve never heard of a guy really desiring a football to be fat and overinflated before, have you?

Simms: Everybody wants it smaller and soft, so they can dig their fingers into. He’s such a feel thrower. You can tell. The one touchdown he threw down the field to the tight end is such feel; then he flicks it. That shows you he just has great control of it, with his fingers and hand.

Nantz: He said, 'God gave me big hands and a strong grip.'

Simms: You know, the officials do check those footballs and sometimes maybe even get lucky and put an extra half pound of air in there to help Aaron Rodgers out.

 

[Amsterhammer]

It looks like Deflategate has got legs.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Last night some gumshoes were digging up other info on doctored footballs. It appears that none other than Eli Manning has a specific routine about having the balls sanded, wet and dried numerous times before a game. And it's all apparently within the rules. Well, that's not correct. It's sort of in an area not defined clearly by the rules.

The biggest story is that apparently Brad Johnson admitted some time ago that in Super Bowl 37 that the NFL was going to use 100 brand new balls. He hated new balls because his hands would sweat too much and he couldn't grip them, and liked his all sanded and ground down. So he paid someone $7,500 to secretly do it! The most fascinating thing is now someone simply must ask Rich Gannon if he liked his footballs brand spanking new. Because Johnson played well in that game, and Gannon had maybe the worst game of his entire career, after an MVP season. Gannon was shockingly bad, throwing 5 picks.

Isn't this fun?!

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Ok, I think we all know football here (thanks god it´s true, and we are not fanboys doing stupid comments on espn.com)... so let us keep the ball in the park. Beli-Cheat is cheating/bending rules as everybody else is (as I said mo than once; he may just excel better/do more )... Let me qoute Tim Green again: "Everything is allowed in love and football until you are caught".

Last night some gumshoes were digging up other info on doctored footballs. It appears that none other than Eli Manning has a specific routine about having the balls sanded, wet and dried numerous times before a game. And it's all apparently within the rules. Well, that's not correct. It's sort of in an area not defined clearly by the rules.

And still it did not help TheSiz™ as he still is the career Int leader between active QBs.

As I said numerous times: Either you can zip the ball, or you can´t. TheSiz™ simply can´t. The surname got him the NFL career. There are at least 1.000 better QBs out there who throw better balls without using the "spit-ball" I´d call it for now...

The biggest story is that apparently Brad Johnson admitted some time ago that in Super Bowl 37 that the NFL was going to use 100 brand new balls. He hated new balls because his hands would sweat too much and he couldn't grip them, and liked his all sanded and ground down. So he paid someone $7,500 to secretly do it!

Another butter who won a SB behind a great D... Enough said... well not truly: It´s widely known he is the worst SB winning QB after Dilf Dilfer. Cheating or not: He was at disadvantage by having no arm, because the better QBs also knew/know the tricks.

The most fascinating thing is now someone simply must ask Rich Gannon if he liked his footballs brand spanking new. Because Johnson played well in that game, and Gannon had maybe the worst game of his entire career, after an MVP season. Gannon was shockingly bad, throwing 5 picks.

Isn't this fun?!

OK, Gannon, and yet another butter (NFL seems to love QBs who can´t heave a ball further than me )... He was drafted as a SAF. Wow. So much him being a "QB". Anyway: It´s a different story. He had the GOAT at the WR position. Means they had to be great. But they lost their OL continuity when Robbins was going missing just before the SB... and Lynch openly admitted TB knew all the plays (as Sherman admited too ´bout the DEN game last Feb). Great Joe (no, no, not the Montana one) said (in Parrishs book): If the opp knows your plays you´ve got no chance. Simple as that.

 

[fatandfast]

Brady owes it to all of us that don't know....will soft balls get you a super model wife and super bowl rings? It's important Tom so answer fast so I can skip the gym

 

[Merckx index]

If he gets banned, or NE gets thrown out of the SB, Beli-Cheat is still the GOAT since others use dirty tricks too…

Beli-Cheat is cheating/bending rules as everybody else is (as I said mo than once; he may just excel better/do more )... Let me qoute Tim Green again: "Everything is allowed in love and football until you are caught".

So LA is the GOAT, and Horner is right up there? They’re all doing it, so it doesn’t matter.

Thus my pick for SEA goes from 17-3 to 24-3... Will be a dull SB.

No way NE is held to a FG (just as no way was SE going to be held to 13 last year). I won’t be surprised if both teams score more than 20 points.

And I highly doubt the NFL would NE allow to win this SB. They denied them since "Spy-Gate", they denied the Raiders since Al Davis went to war, so I see no reason the NFL would let a two time offender get away with it. The game is done before it´s played. I´ll watch anyway. Hope I am totally drunk by HT so that the suffering doesn´t feel too bad...

So they fixed one SB by having Tyree catch the ball on his helmet? How did they pull that off? And another one by having Brady overthrow Welker? The NFL paid him to do that? And they paid Gannon just to lie down before the TB pass rush?

Actually, the NFL hated Davis when he moved the Raiders to LA, so how did they win a SB when they were there? In fact, I can’t remember a time when the NFL liked Davis, but the team managed to win three SBs under his watch.

*****

How much difference does deflating the ball really make? Very little in terms of changing the feel, says this unscientific study, but potentially a lot in terms of distance thrown (wish he’d provided some figures, though).

Again, I'm not an NFL quarterback, and I'm certain they can tell the degree of difference between psi with a far greater degree of certainty than I can. But, and this is key, once you get into double-digit psi, you really have to squeeze the ball hard to tell the difference. In other words, referees, particularly in a Gillette Stadium downpour, would have to be actively squeezing the balls, not just picking them up and tossing them to the sideline, to sense a pressure differential.

He says that you can tell it's soft when you get down to 7 psi, but even there the ball doesn't seem all that different. I think this just adds to the evidence of foul play, though, because someone who has done this before would presumably know how low the ball could go before the refs might notice the difference.

Now, this is tricky, because as noted above, I'm not an NFL quarterback, and presumably neither are you. (If you are, get in touch and tell me how wrong I am.) I noticed a slight grip improvement on the deflated ball, and my throwing distance was ... well, let's just say I won't be turning heads at the combine, but there's a measurable distance improvement when you're able to get slightly more grip on the ball.

How much, though? Really like to know. Wonder if it affects accuracy, too.

So how hard is it to pull two psi out of a ball? Even easier than you'd expect. Pop a needle into the ball and you can drop two psi faster than you can say "two psi." Granted, there are some chain-of-custody issues here; someone looking to do this would have to gain access to the balls, which are supposed to be under the referees' control prior to the game.

Verdict: If someone were to do a Mission: Impossible-style break-in of the football vault, they could deflate all 12 footballs inside of 30 seconds ... or miss one, if they're sloppy.

I'll just add that it would be interesting to know the exact psi for each ball. If someone was doing this quickly and surreptiously, there would be some variation in psi, because you can't take the time to measure it. OTOH, if someone had experience in deflating balls, he would probably know just how much time you need to keep that needle in to get the ball down 2 psi.

So what have we learned? This: deflating footballs is a perfect cut-the-corners gambit. It's an advantage that's simple to execute, not easily detectable, but with measurably positive results.

And it's been done before:

Deflating a football is a thing, thanks to Lane Kiffin's 2012 USC Trojans, who were fined and reprimanded by the Pac-12 for deflating footballs against Oregon. Kiffin denied it. A team equipment manager was fired. Was the equipment manager acting on his own? Well sure, that's possible.

And maybe by the Pats vs. Colts before:

a published report Wednesday says the Colts’ suspicions about the inflation of New England’s footballs date back at least to the regular season matchup with New England on November 16.

And again, an interception — two of them, actually — was the catalyst.

According to ESPN’s Adam Schefter, the Colts notified the NFL about potential under-inflation after safety Mike Adams picked off Brady twice in New England’s 42-20 victory.

In both cases, ESPN reported, Adams took the ball to the sideline as a memento, then gave it to the team’s equipment staff.

It was then, ESPN said, that the inflation of the footballs came into question.

And this, too:

According to Jay Glazer of Fox Sports, the Indianapolis Colts were tipped off by the Baltimore Ravens before the AFC championship game about the Patriots possibly altering the air pressure in their footballs. The Ravens lost to the Patriots in a divisional playoff game the week before.

OK, Alpe, I'll admit it: this is fun. And here is my favorite comment of all:

who didn't "Do Your Job" and get to that 12th ball? It's about the only lack of execution New England had on Sunday.

One thing we can all agree on I think is that Brady had to be aware of this. So when he said on some talk show that the whole thing was ridiculous, he had to be lying. He strongly implied that he never heard of QBs doctoring the ball; Alpe’s post makes it clear that it goes on, and Brady would have to know that. And as many have pointed out, no one would deflate the balls without Brady’s approval.

I guess this proves that Brady is just like Manning, after all. He does better in low pressure situations.

Now we know what coaches really mean when they tell their offense to air it out.

And this gives new meaning to the term, psi-war.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

So LA is the GOAT, and Horner is right up there? They’re all doing it, so it doesn’t matter.

I just described reality. I don´t like cheating. But when über-millions are up, it´s obvious that people try it (and get away with it especially in US major sports; see MLB steroids scandals for example)...

So why hang Beli-Cheat, and let the others walk? Hypocrisy...

No way NE is held to a FG (just as no way was SE going to be held to 13 last year). I won’t be surprised if both teams score more than 20 points.

We will see. OFC I hope NE wins and scores more, but I highly doubt it for all the reasons I gave...

So they fixed one SB by having Tyree catch the ball on his helmet? How did they pull that off? And another one by having Brady overthrow Welker? The NFL paid him to do that?

Didn´t say that they fixed those plays, but it´s kinda funny NE scores only 14 & 17 vs a 400-Point defense, that Beli-Cheat the master played slow when being down by 14 vs NYJ (that game was super suspicious a couple of years ago), ...

Actually, the NFL hated Davis when he moved the Raiders to LA, so how did they win a SB when they were there? In fact, I can’t remember a time when the NFL liked Davis, but the team managed to win three SBs under his watch.

... and that the Raiders led the league basically every year in penalties, even though there is a major coach and player overhaul from year-to-year...

And they paid Gannon just to lie down before the TB pass rush?

... I didn´t say that. But I believe Sherman* when he said they knew the DEN plays, I believe Lynch* when he said the same about the OAK game, and I believe Namath and other QBs who say "if your opponent knows the plays, you got no chance". There is no discussing around it: Opponent knows what´s coming, you are doomed.

(* Why shall they make such things up, when this honesty actually hurts their reputation?)

You may believe in the integrity of the NFL. I don´t. When all this scandals like spy-gate hit the news, we only see the tip of the iceberg. Thus I am 100% sure (as I am since I read the Moldea and Parrish books) that games are fixed. I just don´t know the exact number. Can be anything between 10 and 90% of games. It´s like we don´t know how many pro cyclists dope. But we all know they do...

I guess this proves that Brady is just like Manning, after all. He does better in low pressure situations.

Agree. But the difference is that Brady doesn´t look that bad in his playoff meltdowns.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

You guys should hear all the shouting from rooftops out of the NY (ie, pro Giants) media. A reflection of some of the absurd reactions to all of this. Some people want the Patriots to forfeit the Colts game. Like that's going to happen.

I found Belicheck's denial interesting. Randy Moss says he believes it was sincere. Okay, great. I don't know. Either he knew it, and has helped plan this for months and it's part of their routine, or he gave a green light to handlers on the team to do just this, without telling him the specifics.

I don't doubt there is a lot of cheating to some degree. Some of it is obvious and sometimes gets caught (PED use). Some of it harder to unearth (Bountygate). Some of it subtle, like this. I just think the Patriots do it more than other teams, that's why they get caught.

My understanding is that the balls aren't kept under lock and key (they will be now!), and that teams have access to them during pre-game warmups.

If I were commissioner here is the punishment I would dole out. This is based on the current information I know. I would suspend Belicheck from having contact with the team from now until 24 hours before kickoff. He can still make the final prep, and coach them on the field, but Josh McDaniels has to step up in the time between. Next, I would take away a draft pick for next season, somewhere between rounds 2-5. I might give that pick to Indianapolis. Finally, I would give the team a hefty fine over $100k for every deflated ball they find. That would be I believe the biggest fine in NFL history, and might send a message to Robert Kraft that he needs to control his team better.

Finally, I would try to make a ruling on this as soon as possible. Hopefully by tomorrow afternoon. That way the media can gobble it up, and by the time we're into the weekend, start talking about the actual game.

And that's the negative aspect of all this, as fun as it is to pick apart, it's taking away from the talk and analysis and excitement of the actual game that's going to be played in a little over a week. The one where the Pats superb offense takes on the Seahawks superb defense, and the average, though improved Seattle offense takes on the average, though improved Patriot defense. I don't expect a high scoring game, but I don't see either team held to a FG. Something along the lines of 23-16 seems possible, with Seattle on top.

 

[gobuck]

Really Alpe?

http://wtop.com/nfl/2015/01/column-feel-bad-caring-deflategate/

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

This guy really thinks this is good for the NFL and the NFL thinks so?

“In the grand scheme of things, this is nothing,” says Farnetti. “It’s great for the league that they’re talking about this.”

Oh yeah, that's true. If it weren't for this, no one would be talking about football or the Super Bowl. Right.

What it's good for, is the media. It's not the NFL, or players, or owners, or coaches. It's reporters that stir the pot and make it a story more than anything. It's also the general blogosphere, of which we are guilty. But the media is always look for something extra, beyond the game, something they can write about, and grill players about. Something they can get an edge about. That in itself is interesting. But in no way do we need it in order to care about or pay attention to the game. No way.

I was incorrect on the fines. Though I do still think the NFL will level some sort of punishment against the Pats. And if commissioner, I would do it soon. As I said before, making them forfeit last week's game, or firing Belichek is nuts. That's for NY fanboys (and maybe reporters there too).

 

[Merckx index]

So why hang Beli-Cheat, and let the others walk? Hypocrisy...

So why criticize Horner, and not care about the others?

Come on, Foxxy, you'e obsessed with Horner. I don't have a problem with that, but how can you not understand people who might be a little obsessed with Belichick?

... I didn´t say that. But I believe Sherman* when he said they knew the DEN plays, I believe Lynch* when he said the same about the OAK game, and I believe Namath and other QBs who say "if your opponent knows the plays, you got no chance". There is no discussing around it: Opponent knows what´s coming, you are doomed.

So how does one team know the other team’s plays, but not the reverse? How do they get this information? Do they pay an insider on the other team?

I’ll admit that I’ve long found the Pats fishy. Not because they win a lot, you expect from time to time a dominant team will emerge in any sport. It’s the way they win. I’ve never forgotten their 2004 postseason. They played Indy, which had averaged more than 32 ppg during the regular season, with Manning setting a record with 49 TD passes, and held them to a FG. OK, so Manning choked, cold weather, blah, blah, blah. But still, it was an incredible defensive effort. The next week, they played the Steelers, a great defensive team but not nearly as good offensively as Indy was, and you expect that game has to be low scoring, too. Instead, it’s the opposite, 45-27. It’s like the Pats have no identity or characteristic type of play, but can be anything from week to week. And I do seem to recall during the Indy game, whenever the Pats had a critical play, a third down e.g. needed to sustain a drive, they made it. It did seem they knew exactly what to do.

Or consider this year. One game they win when a RB no one ever heard of gains over 200 yards. Then they play the Ravens, can’t even rush for 20 yards, and win with Brady passing nearly every down. I can understand how a team can be really good in either passing or rushing, or balanced, or whatever, I don’t understand how they can be very unbalanced one way one week, and equally unbalanced another way another week. It doesn’t seem to make sense.

Alpe often mentions that Indy-Pitt game, when Vanderjagt missed a FG by a country mile. Maybe he was paid to do that. But that was a very weird game. If Indy was paid to lose, how does Bettis, who hadn't fumbled in something like 200 touches, drop the ball near the goal line--in a situation where the Steelers didn't even have to score, just needed to run out the clock? How does Pomalu's interception, which wrapped up the game for Pitt a little earlier, get reversed?

Agree. But the difference is that Brady doesn´t look that bad in his playoff meltdowns.

You didn’t get the joke, Foxxy. Low pressure situations?

Meanwhile, Brady and Belichick say, “we like our credibility”.

Belichick said he had no knowledge of the football protocol or the air pressure

Oh, come on. This is the most down-to-details prepared coach in the NFL, and he doesn’t know the protocol, or the required air pressure? After all the information that has come out in the past few days about how every QB wants the ball prepared in a specific way? Brady himself, while also denying any knowledge of the deflating, said he likes them at the low end. Belichick wouldn’t know that?

[Brady] said repeatedly he didn't note a difference between the balls in the first half and those in the second half, when reportedly the balls were switched out. He explained that he just grips the ball during the game and throws it. He wouldn't squeeze it, so he wouldn't notice a difference.

Really? A guy who isn’t even a QB said he noticed he could grip a ball better and throw it further when it was deflated, but a real QB doesn’t notice anything? Some former playersdid:

In a segment for ESPN, former NFL quarterback Mark Brunell and running back Jerome Bettis were given a ball inflated to regulation and another that was two pounds under regulation, as the Patriots’ balls were reported to have been. Both players were adamant an advantage would be gained. On the other hand, former NFL wide receiver Amani Toomer, on a Pro Football Now segment for SI, was given a ball at 13 psi and another inflated to just 10 psi—2.5 pounds under regulation—and said the latter felt “a little bit different” to him but it was not really noticeable unless someone worked and felt for the difference.

Some other coaches weigh in:

“Of course it’s a big deal,” said a defensive coordinator. “You go try to throw a ball in wet conditions that is fully inflated, and then throw one that has less air. Of course you’re going to get a better grip. It’s a definite advantage. And look which team it is. Not a surprise.”

An AFC defensive coach told me: “It ****es us off. We’re talking about the integrity of the game, respect for the game. That should mean something to you. You don’t have to look for every gray area to exploit. It’s like the ineligible player thing. [The Ravens complained that the Patriots were working too fast when players were reporting as ineligible and not allowing the defense time to change personnel, as is required.] That violates the spirit of the rule.

“[Belichick] is a great coach, and they are a great team. It’s just a shame that they feel the need to do these things. If you don’t respect the game, I lose respect for you.”

 

[Oldman]

I just described reality. I don´t like cheating. But when über-millions are up, it´s obvious that people try it (and get away with it especially in US major sports; see MLB steroids scandals for example)...

So why hang Beli-Cheat, and let the others walk? Hypocrisy...



... I didn´t say that. But I believe Sherman* when he said they knew the DEN plays, I believe Lynch* when he said the same about the OAK game, and I believe Namath and other QBs who say "if your opponent knows the plays, you got no chance". There is no discussing around it: Opponent knows what´s coming, you are doomed.

(* Why shall they make such things up, when this honesty actually hurts their reputation?)


.

I like how you've taken excellent pre-game preparation and turn it into yet another reason why the SB was taken from Denver. You make it sound like they have a secret code book and get cues from the sideline about the upcoming play. Pretty close: they actually studied the other team's plays on film and their predictable tendencies. How DARE they be smarter than the other team!
There's cheating and then theres studying. Seattle is smart and studies. They also hit twice as hard as anyone else on Denver. That's why the most heroic receiver Denver had was Welker and even he was burrowing deeper than a prairie dog after each reception. NE can expect much of that.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Good posts, guys.

I like how you've taken excellent pre-game preparation and turn it into yet another reason why the SB was taken from Denver.

I agree with you completely. The Seahawks had a team, and gameplan that took away Denver's strengths. They had a very good idea how they were going to play, and how to stop that. They also had the defensive match-ups against Denver that no other team Denver faced had. It had nothing to do with knowing which exact plays were coming, that's an absurd claim I have never heard even the most ardent Broncos fan make. They know their team was slaughtered. End of story.

’ll admit that I’ve long found the Pats fishy. ...It’s like the Pats have no identity or characteristic type of play, but can be anything from week to week.

Reminds me of the 2011 divisional game. After blowing out the Jets 45-3 a month earlier and a 14-2 season, the Patriots played the most disinterested game I've ever seen from them, losing to those same Jets in the playoffs.

Of course there's also 2008, where in the last week of the season they put up 38 points on the NY Giants, in New York, then could muster no more than 14 against them in the Super Bowl.

Alpe often mentions that Indy-Pitt game, when Vanderjagt missed a FG by a country mile. Maybe he was paid to do that. But that was a very weird game.

I honestly don't know what happened, we never will, but it was just the most unreal and suspicious play I have ever seen. Most accurate kicker in history, almost never misses at home, or in the playoffs. Snap and hold perfect, and he's 15 yards to the right?

Maybe the ball was deflated?!

That entire game was strange, but so were those playoffs. Recall this is the year in the Super Bowl nearly every close call went for Pittsburgh, and against Seattle. It's the worst officiated big game I have ever seen. And I'm not alone in saying this (recall I had no horse in that race, I'm a Raiders fan).

Every indication at this point with Deflategate is that Roger Goddell is going to take the tact that they are not going to react too early, like they did with Ray Rice, and hope it blows away enough before game time. But there have been many of these blemishes on the NFL, and him, I think it will be a mistake to not dole out some sort of punishment now, even if it's just a fine for the balls with other punishment pending investigation. Because it not only detracts too much for the fans, and teams, it also will leave too much speculation to the result of the game, especially if New England wins anything but a tight, perfectly played game. We're all going to wonder how and if the Patriots were able to cheat.

The problem with this also is that I imagine several teams, owners and coaches are livid. Do you think the Colts won't mind if Goodell hands down punishment months from now? How about Baltimore? Or Seattle? Paul Allen is a quiet man, but he's also the wealthiest owner in the NFL last time I checked, and he's been nothing but great for the team, city of Seattle, and the league as a whole. And how do you suppose the Saints feel about now? They were handed the harshest penalty in NFL history - had an entire season wiped, and the course of their future changed, and the Patriots get to play the big game scot free?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

I like how you've taken excellent pre-game preparation and turn it into yet another reason why the SB was taken from Denver. You make it sound like they have a secret code book and get cues from the sideline about the upcoming play. Pretty close: they actually studied the other team's plays on film and their predictable tendencies. How DARE they be smarter than the other team!
There's cheating and then theres studying. Seattle is smart and studies. They also hit twice as hard as anyone else on Denver. That's why the most heroic receiver Denver had was Welker and even he was burrowing deeper than a prairie dog after each reception. NE can expect much of that.

"We knew what route concepts they liked on different downs, so we jumped all the routes. Then we figured out the hand signals for a few of the route audibles in the first half. ... If Peyton had thrown in some double moves, if he had gone out of character, we could've been exposed."

Nuff said...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Meaning, they were smarter, and played better, which is hardly cheating, and part of the game, in addition to beating them in every other aspect of the game.

Considering how poorly the Broncos, and Manning played, right from the first play, I don't think him "going out of character" would have helped the Broncos that much. He was also pressured by the Seattle pass rush many times. You may also recall they did complete several passes, but both Welker and Thomas were noticeable timid about getting hammered when they did, resulting in a lot of incompletes, or short gains. Most of their stats, like Manning's padded numbers, were in garbage time when the game was already blown out and Seattle's celebration was starting.

To fantasize that if only Seattle hadn't stole their plays, Manning would have some how cemented the GOAT and marched the Broncos down the field drive after drive, "exposing the Seahawks" is fanboy wishful thinking. Maybe they would have lost 34-20, instead of 43-8, but that's about it. A Seattle fan could easily flip that around and say if the Seahawks had kept their foot to the gas the entire time, they might have won 57-0. That's how dominant and lopsided the game was.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

No that wasnt cheating. I just posted it to underline what I said and wats true: Your opponent knows wats coming, you are doomed. Its like if a opposing batter gets served a fastball over the middle all the time. Guess wat? This batter is going to hit one out of two balls out of the park all day and night long...

That was that...

The cheating was the steroids, the un-called defensive holdings and who knows wat else... We have been trou that more than once.

Peace.

Otherwise you are right. It was the wrong team going to the SB. We all know PM melts under pressure. Any other AFC playoff team with SEA not knowing the plays and not allowed to hold, we have a whole different ball game. I know that is a lot ifs. After all: Just standing by my words; A one sided team shall not win the SB.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Oh, that's right. I forgot about all the holding by Seattle's defense. Right. That must be why they won. I mean, it's not like they had much talent, nor played very well.

As to the adderall (and Browner then busted for weed), the Seahawks were probably more dope up than Chris Horner, while Denver and a few other teams were on bread and water. Let's ignore that one of the guys busted at Seattle, John Moffitt, actually played for Denver last season.

Keep trying. Eventually someone will buy it. Maybe someone from Denver. Any takers?

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Oh, that's right. I forgot about all the holding by Seattle's defense. Right. That must be why they won. I mean, it's not like they had much talent, nor played very well.

As to the adderall (and Browner then busted for weed), the Seahawks were probably more dope up than Chris Horner, while Denver and a few other teams were on bread and water. Let's ignore that one of the guys busted at Seattle, John Moffitt, actually played for Denver last season.

Keep trying. Eventually someone will buy it. Maybe someone from Denver. Any takers?

No buyers today. Ok. No prob.

But you´d agree you are not sure about the integrity of the NFL, right? You´d agree the Raiders leading the league in pens every year is ... well... not normal, right? You´d agree that Brock said the difference between top team and worst team is very small, right? It´s not 43-8-like between the best and second best team, right? You´d agree knowing opponents signals and routes is a major advantage, right? You´d agree there was a big discussion between experts going on about SEAs non called holdings during the season, right?
You´d agree that speed, strength and ability (IOW: overall talent) has nothing to do with all that, right?

Sure PM would have lost that game either way, single handedly. But I wasn´t sure about that before the game. I thought a 600 point offense has a great chance to win that game. Especially since superior offenses normally trump superior defenses (at least until all those random playoff outcomes started at circa 2005, and all those flops by the refs since 2001). Since then it´s confirmed: He can´t take the pressure even when having the best ever offense on the field. That was a all time first. And all time low OFC.

 

[on3m@n@rmy]

...But you´d agree you are not sure about the integrity of the NFL, right? ...

Totally disagree. NFL is squeaky clean. 100%.

If you don't believe me, check me out...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Totally disagree. NFL is squeaky clean. 100%.

True. That convinced me. If you say it, then the NFL is clean...

BTW, nice pic of that cute white cat...

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

So why criticize Horner, and not care about the others?

Because he is over the top. It hurts my eyes and brain. It´s just insulting. If Beli-Cheat is seen bribing opponent coaches to lose intentionally, I´d say he is over the top too again. But not with deflating balls.

Spygate was tough. We dont know how bad it was. NFL did the smart thing (in their opinion), destroying all evidence. For me it just shows how rotten they (NFL) are. It wasn´t about Beli-Cheat. It was about to keep a dirty secret (which isn´t so secret to those who are informed) used by many.

Others walked free. When MIA beat NE 21-0 in 2003something, MIA knew all plays &, signals, snap counts (confirmed by MIA trou the Huddle magazine). It´s possible they spyed too. It´s a dirty trick used since ages (see Greens book).

Come on, Foxxy, you'e obsessed with Horner. I don't have a problem with that, but how can you not understand people who might be a little obsessed with Belichick?

See above. If Beli-Cheat starts dropping opponents 2007-like with Guaradapolo or whatever his name is, then I´d say we shall be concerned again.

So how does one team know the other team’s plays, but not the reverse? How do they get this information? Do they pay an insider on the other team?

Filming secretly, spying, stealing... It´s all described in Greens book. Has nothing to do with talent. If I´d see the two covered cards by world class poker players, I´d win every single hand...

I’ll admit that I’ve long found the Pats fishy. Not because they win a lot, you expect from time to time a dominant team will emerge in any sport. It’s the way they win. I’ve never forgotten their 2004 postseason. They played Indy, which had averaged more than 32 ppg during the regular season, with Manning setting a record with 49 TD passes, and held them to a FG. OK, so Manning choked, cold weather, blah, blah, blah. But still, it was an incredible defensive effort. The next week, they played the Steelers, a great defensive team but not nearly as good offensively as Indy was, and you expect that game has to be low scoring, too. Instead, it’s the opposite, 45-27. It’s like the Pats have no identity or characteristic type of play, but can be anything from week to week. And I do seem to recall during the Indy game, whenever the Pats had a critical play, a third down e.g. needed to sustain a drive, they made it. It did seem they knew exactly what to do.

The Pats 3 SBs are tainted. All of them. They spyed the Rams, got away with un-called holdings, didn´t had to kick-off after the last FG... One of the worst fixed SBs ever. SL got stolen...

And NE needed every single help (plus turnover 3+ advantage) to escape with a 20-17 "win"...

... and to get there they needed a new rule: The tuck rule. In hindsight, I should have stopped after that season. It got absurd by then already.

After the 2001 SB, everything was fishy about NE until spygate was stopped in 2007. And after that, they started to play beautiful ball for the first time in Beli-Cheats era. But by then NE was blacklisted. Enough was enough, like it was with the Raiders/Davis. Got too greedy. Paid a high price. Never were allowed to win the SB again. What a irony: They "won" 3 SBs with lesser talented teams and help with big time cheating. And once they had great teams, NFL denied them. What a farce.

Alpe often mentions that Indy-Pitt game, when Vanderjagt missed a FG by a country mile. Maybe he was paid to do that. But that was a very weird game. If Indy was paid to lose, how does Bettis, who hadn't fumbled in something like 200 touches, drop the ball near the goal line--in a situation where the Steelers didn't even have to score, just needed to run out the clock? How does Pomalu's interception, which wrapped up the game for Pitt a little earlier, get reversed?

You never know were the fix comes from. Can be NFL headquarters, can be Vegas cleaning books, can be mobsters having bet millions trou birds, can be a weak character like Schlichter cleaning debts.

The most obvious for that game? Vanderjagt owned something to somebody. No kicker, not even if hyper nervous, shanks a short one one kilometer wide right. It was like he had to be super duper sure: the ball shall have no chance to spiral/drift towards the posts, or being picked up after a miss for a (even though unlikely) IND recovery.

You didn’t get the joke, Foxxy. Low pressure situations?

At least for PM they exist. Otherwise he would never have thrown for 300 in a game...

 

[Oldman]

No that wasnt cheating. I just posted it to underline what I said and wats true: Your opponent knows wats coming, you are doomed. Its like if a opposing batter gets served a fastball over the middle all the time. Guess wat? This batter is going to hit one out of two balls out of the park all day and night long...

That was that...

The cheating was the steroids, the un-called defensive holdings and who knows wat else... We have been trou that more than once.

Peace.

Otherwise you are right. It was the wrong team going to the SB. We all know PM melts under pressure. Any other AFC playoff team with SEA not knowing the plays and not allowed to hold, we have a whole different ball game. I know that is a lot ifs. After all: Just standing by my words; A one sided team shall not win the SB.

Still with the holding crap...and if Peyton's plays are easily read isn't there something like 5 offensive spotter up in a box to offer some variables? If there is one thing you bring to the big game is some new weapons. Peyton prides himself on play calling, adjustments...it's part of his "genius". I also recall a certain fan saying the O line would blow Seattle up.

If you learned one thing from watching Russell Wilson's last drive this weekend it was they adapted and won. Oh, wait. You didn't see it so you couldn't know that no steroids, holding, whatever was involved in that drive.
Seattle did manage to win a few other games so they must have everyone's Playbook. Maybe the super-rich Paul bought them from corrupt NFL management...or mobsters.

You need to write all of this down in a novel because it's really good stuff.

 

[Oldman]

Just watched that Superbowl again and saw less of what some imagine and more that you allege. Shady game.
I see PM looking away from a snap and giving up 2 pts. Then Seattle driving on short plays...improvising because Denver's defense repeatedly stops Lynch. Field goal and 5 pts total.
PM passes credibly, Moreno runs well and they move down field. Damarius Thomas catches one over the middle and meets Cam Chancellor. He carries the message back to the huddle; ow. OW. I see PM rushed and a ball tipped and a SEA interception barely missed. Later PM is pressed and is slow getting the pass off, ball is tipped and Smith catches it while Damarius gazes into space...another 7 pts for Seattle.
On offense Seattle runs Harvin on end-arounds (usually one of the flashiest and least successful offensive plays against an average D). They do this 3 times with no adjustments by Denver's defense. Clearly Denver's defense is being paid by the Mob at this point. Everything else this half for Seattle is scramble plays and field goals.
2nd half starts with John Fox allowing his kicker to drive it Harvin's way. Clearly he is in the Mob's pocket too as there is no other explanation for this stupid a call. Whatacrook.
Julius Thomas plays solid, manly offense while most of Denver's other guys are now limping or diving.
It doesn't get better from there because Seattle gets a long gain on a play that Troy Aikman notes was exactly the same play they threw to Baldwin in the NFC Championship. Now it's obvious Denver's defensive coordinator is conspiring with Fox because they ignore a play that should be easily recognizable.
The fix was definitely in.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Still with the holding crap...and if Peyton's plays are easily read isn't there something like 5 offensive spotter up in a box to offer some variables? If there is one thing you bring to the big game is some new weapons. Peyton prides himself on play calling, adjustments...it's part of his "genius". I also recall a certain fan saying the O line would blow Seattle up.

If you learned one thing from watching Russell Wilson's last drive this weekend it was they adapted and won. Oh, wait. You didn't see it so you couldn't know that no steroids, holding, whatever was involved in that drive.
Seattle did manage to win a few other games so they must have everyone's Playbook. Maybe the super-rich Paul bought them from corrupt NFL management...or mobsters.

You need to write all of this down in a novel because it's really good stuff.

I know, I know, you are a biased SEA fan. I have no problems with that.

To clarify: I have never said others don´t cheat. Big money > big cheating... Please, please have a look at the whole Steriod-Era and then tell me NFL is clean and integer. You can´t believe that. Do you?

You can joke around that I made it look SEA bought all and everything to have me looking ridicoulous here. But here is news for you: NFL games were fixed, dopers were caught, ticket scalping did happen, and so on, all in the books with hard eveidence... And now you tell me everything is fine, they caught all cheaters, the rest play by the rules ... I OTOH see what it is: The tip of the iceberg. To uncover a fix you need somebody to talk under oath (which happened, but very very seldom), because a fix (trou birds) is impossible to find out with normal criminal investigation methods. There is no DNA. There is no single guy betting one million and then running around shouting "I bought game xy". There is no single bank transfer stating "bet 1 mio that SEA covers the line, I bought the ref". There is no integer Michael Franzese commiting suicide by naming names... Ok, believe what you want and make me look ridicoulous.

I saw what happened, I did listen to the experts (about SEAs un-called defensive holdings trou-out the season), SEA players where caught doping, Carroll had his improper methods uncovered (why shall he stop in NFL?)... and finally I do say that PM melts under pressure. All years long. But I didn´t expect him to bust in the SB with the best ever offense. Tell me who saw that. You wasn´t it.

And finally, finally: Yep, it seems the guys behind the mirrors upstairs did not adjust. If they had, Sherman wouldn´t have said what he said.
They are not the super-intelligent football guys. They are just like everyone else. Otherwise guys like Norv the smurf, Reid, McCartney would learn from past mistakes.
All you got there is football nerds alledgly working 24-7 to get the last detail for the upcoming game. And what do they do? Get lost in details, no time for innovative play calls, no adjustments, going by the originalplan no matter what, no plan B (see McCartneys bust vs SEA for example)...

No holding happened... sure, no roids... sure... all by the rules... sure...

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

But you´d agree you are not sure about the integrity of the NFL, right? You´d agree the Raiders leading the league in pens every year is ... well... not normal, right? You´d agree that Brock said the difference between top team and worst team is very small, right? It´s not 43-8-like between the best and second best team, right? You´d agree knowing opponents signals and routes is a major advantage, right? You´d agree there was a big discussion between experts going on about SEAs non called holdings during the season, right?
You´d agree that speed, strength and ability (IOW: overall talent) has nothing to do with all that, right?

• League integrity it relative. Probably less than the NCAA Division 2. Probably more than Track & Field (Athletics).
• The Raiders leading the league and having more odd penalties (ie, tuck rule) go against them was probably not happenstance, no.
• Brock was correct, best to least best is miniscule. Hence, if they played and tried (and nothing strange happened in the game) the Tampa Bay Buccaneers would beat Ohio State about 63-0. But that same Bucs team lost to Atlanta 56-14 in week 3, then beat the Steelers the following week, in Pittsburgh. The ball bounces in peculiar ways.
• Knowing another team's signals is an advantage, though I doubt Seattle knew them all, all game long. But it helped. Otherwise, they may have only won 34-20, like I said.
• I'm aware of the discussion about Seattle holding. They were also the most penalized team in the NFL last year.
• Strength and overall talent do have something to do with it, but not everything, or Jamarcus Russell would be in the HOF.

Sure PM would have lost that game either way, single handedly. But I wasn´t sure about that before the game.

Certain, no. But you did discuss it being possible before the game and during the 2013 season. Though it was definitely cemented after the game. And it came to true fruition in this year's divisional game. Thigh injury or not, he couldn't even complete short, simple passes to open receivers. There had to have been a strong mental aspect to his poor play. It had to be more to it than injury, lest Ostweiller would have been playing, at least at some point.

As I noted before, you take away all the things that supposedly gave Seattle an advantage in last year's Super Bowl, and they still win handily. I don't see any other result. If we're not going to agree on this, then we have to say that virtually every Super Bowl as a possibility of an erroneous outcome. Then we can go back and look at Super Bowl III (Colts strange play calling against Jets), Super Bowl XII (Morton throwing as many int's as completions), Super Bowl XL (the calls for Pittsburgh against Seattle), and plenty more playoff and RS games. We could analyze this ad infinitum, and conclude that maybe a third of all games were not the result they should have been.

Then we can all go back to college, and get degrees and careers in mathematics and live happy lives.