National Football League

[Alpe d'Huez]

The only way I see Drew Brees actually playing is if he joins something like the Fan Controlled Football League, the way a few others have, to have fun. Sort of like a freshly retired bike racing deciding to enter gravel races, the Leadville 100, triathlons, etc. And not think about the money.

As far as the NFC west, I still think the big ? is the QB position in SF. Do they stick with Jimmy G, knowing the team is built to win now, but it's highly unlikely he'll ever get a team any further than a playoff game win? Or, do they roll the dice with Trey Lance, shifting the offense, and rolling the dice he'll be able to perform far better than he did in limited action last season?

I like where Seattle is going...in 2023 and beyond, but I don't see Geno Smith, or Drew Lock (or Gardner Minshew!) leading them to more than 10 wins, at best. No team's running offense or D is good enough to have a very average QB get the team far anymore. This isn't 1992. If they can get a good QB in a year or two, this team could have a very solid run in future years.

 

[movingtarget]

The only way I see Drew Brees actually playing is if he joins something like the Fan Controlled Football League, the way a few others have, to have fun. Sort of like a freshly retired bike racing deciding to enter gravel races, the Leadville 100, triathlons, etc. And not think about the money.

As far as the NFC west, I still think the big ? is the QB position in SF. Do they stick with Jimmy G, knowing the team is built to win now, but it's highly unlikely he'll ever get a team any further than a playoff game win? Or, do they roll the dice with Trey Lance, shifting the offense, and rolling the dice he'll be able to perform far better than he did in limited action last season?

I like where Seattle is going...in 2023 and beyond, but I don't see Geno Smith, or Drew Lock (or Gardner Minshew!) leading them to more than 10 wins, at best. No team's running offense or D is good enough to have a very average QB get the team far anymore. This isn't 1992. If they can get a good QB in a year or two, this team could have a very solid run in future years.

Expecting Jimmy G to be cut or traded before the 53 is announced otherwise his full salary is activated. Because he is injured if they cut him now they still owe him 7 million but if they wait until he gets medical clearance it will cost them nothing. I still think they want to get something back for him and I would be gobsmacked if he was still on the roster next season even if they agreed on a restructure. Considering what Lance cost them and what Lynch has said recently it seems to be full steam ahead with Lance even though there is a lot of chatter about how Lance is viewed. I''m sure some of it is trolling but Chis Simms and co seem to be dishing some scuttlebut but I have noticed in recent times that Simms is wrong about as much as he is right and a former NFL scout was spreading stories about Lance already being seen as a bust which goes against everything that is coming out of the 49ers camp lately.

Comparing Jordan Love at GB to Lance, Lance has played 2.5 real games plus preseason while Love has pretty much been kept hidden. There seems to be much less confidence about Love than Lance and with Rodgers still at GB you have to think that the Love pick in the draft was a much worse decision than picking Lance even though Lance cost more. I am sitting on the fence with Lance. I can see the potential but I think some 49ers fans are taking it to another level and the treatment of Jimmy G by a certain percentage of the 49ers fanbase has been pretty atrocious and unwarranted. They had a declining Kaepernick, Gabbert and Hoyer at QB and they won 7 games in two seasons under Kelly and Tomsula before Shanahan and Jimmy showed up.

 

[movingtarget]

https://www.nfl.com/news/dwayne-haskins-had-alcohol-drugs-in-system-at-time-of-death

https://www.nfl.com/news/former-rams-falcons-rb-todd-gurley-never-thought-i-wish-i-was-out-there-during-2

 

[movingtarget]

https://www.nfl.com/news/top-101-nfl-free-agents-of-2022-who-are-the-best-nfl-players-available

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I agree Jimmy G has to finally be done in SF. Even Kyle Shanahan said he expected him to be traded, as if he had zero input on such a decision. If they somehow decide to hold onto him, they may as well trade Lance away. If you ask me, the 49ers painted themselves into a corner here. They didn't expect Jimmy G to play as solid as he has, they didn't expect the other players to coalesce around him and believe in him as a leader, and they expected Lance to be the next Lamar Jackson, or Robert Griffin III, perhaps.

But at the same time they know Jimmy G isn't quite good enough as the entire team as a whole, not quite good enough to win a Super Bowl. And Lance hasn't shown himself to be anything close to Jackson...so far. But Lance also plays a style I think is much closer to what Kyle Shanahan wants to see.

Remember that Kyle was OC during RGIII's electric rookie season, one of the most exciting, and impressive rookie seasons in NFL history (ruined by a knee injury, his whole career ruined by that double ACL/LCL tear, really). It has to have sat in the back of Kyle's mind, "what if RGIII never got hurt?" and maybe Trey Lance is the answer to that.

 

[Oldermanish]

I agree Jimmy G has to finally be done in SF. Even Kyle Shanahan said he expected him to be traded, as if he had zero input on such a decision. If they somehow decide to hold onto him, they may as well trade Lance away. If you ask me, the 49ers painted themselves into a corner here. They didn't expect Jimmy G to play as solid as he has, they didn't expect the other players to coalesce around him and believe in him as a leader, and they expected Lance to be the next Lamar Jackson, or Robert Griffin III, perhaps.

But at the same time they know Jimmy G isn't quite good enough as the entire team as a whole, not quite good enough to win a Super Bowl. And Lance hasn't shown himself to be anything close to Jackson...so far. But Lance also plays a style I think is much closer to what Kyle Shanahan wants to see.

Remember that Kyle was OC during RGIII's electric rookie season, one of the most exciting, and impressive rookie seasons in NFL history (ruined by a knee injury, his whole career ruined by that double ACL/LCL tear, really). It has to have sat in the back of Kyle's mind, "what if RGIII never got hurt?" and maybe Trey Lance is the answer to that.

There was much speculation before the game and after that sound coaching wouldn't have played RGIII on that knee. Who made the final call on that career-wrecking choice?

 

[movingtarget]

I agree Jimmy G has to finally be done in SF. Even Kyle Shanahan said he expected him to be traded, as if he had zero input on such a decision. If they somehow decide to hold onto him, they may as well trade Lance away. If you ask me, the 49ers painted themselves into a corner here. They didn't expect Jimmy G to play as solid as he has, they didn't expect the other players to coalesce around him and believe in him as a leader, and they expected Lance to be the next Lamar Jackson, or Robert Griffin III, perhaps.

But at the same time they know Jimmy G isn't quite good enough as the entire team as a whole, not quite good enough to win a Super Bowl. And Lance hasn't shown himself to be anything close to Jackson...so far. But Lance also plays a style I think is much closer to what Kyle Shanahan wants to see.

Remember that Kyle was OC during RGIII's electric rookie season, one of the most exciting, and impressive rookie seasons in NFL history (ruined by a knee injury, his whole career ruined by that double ACL/LCL tear, really). It has to have sat in the back of Kyle's mind, "what if RGIII never got hurt?" and maybe Trey Lance is the answer to that.

The whole debate around mobile versus non mobile QB play is an interesting one. For all of the talk a few seasons ago about how you now needed a mobile QB to compete, it hasn't really stuck and the majority of SB winners in recent times are still non mobile QBs. Both RGIII and Jimmy G made poor decisions by not stepping out but attampting to go for more yards and they got hammered. And some elite QBs are better at self preservation than others. I never watched the Bills much last season but when I did I was surprised at how much running Allen was doing. Obviously with his physique he can take the hits better than the smaller QBs but the Bills coach has already said with their offense upgrade he expects Allen to be doing less running.

Mahomes for all of his success early, in the SB against the Buccs he was getting assaulted and good defenses eventually catch up with running QBs. For all of the success early for Lamar Jackson and Kyler Murray, defenses have adapted, injuries are more common and once again self preservation is part of it. Murray and Mahomes sometimes seem to hold onto the ball forever to extend plays. Burrow moves very well but is definitely not a running QB. Stafford is more like Brady.

As far as the rookies went it was the pocket passer in Jones that had the best season. Best coach and best protection ? Compare Jones to what Lawrence and Fields had to go through. Fields was getting abused in many of his early games. it seems Shanahan is okay about risking his new QB that cost him multiple first round picks. In Lance's first game against the Cardinals who had the best defense in the league at that point, Kyle was calling run play after run play for Lance. The result from his first game, a knee strain and a chipped finger on his throwing hand. Watson has been off the field for a long time and the worst thing that could happen to the Browns is an injury to Watson especially after it cost them so much. Obviously Watson won't be changing his style much but he will also be rusty after so long off the field. The best of the new generation of QBs namely Burrow and Henry are not running QBs. So its going to be interesting to see how Lance and Fields progress and how much the 49ers offense changes. There is already talk about them changing their run game to more of a power run game and they no longer have Breida and Mostert. And now they have added speed to the WR group which means they will be going downfield more often while with the Jimmy G offense it was mainly a short passing game. Lance has already shown that he has a stronger arm than Jimmy but whether he can feed the offense as well as Jimmy remains to be seen.

 

[Oldermanish]

The whole debate around mobile versus non mobile QB play is an interesting one. For all of the talk a few seasons ago about how you now needed a mobile QB to compete, it hasn't really stuck and the majority of SB winners in recent times are still non mobile QBs. Both RGIII and Jimmy G made poor decisions by not stepping out but attampting to go for more yards and they got hammered. And some elite QBs are better at self preservation than others. I never watched the Bills much last season but when I did I was surprised at how much running Allen was doing. Obviously with his physique he can take the hits better than the smaller QBs but the Bills coach has already said with their offense upgrade he expects Allen to be doing less running.

Mahomes for all of his success early, in the SB against the Buccs he was getting assaulted and good defenses eventually catch up with running QBs. For all of the success early for Lamar Jackson and Kyler Murray, defenses have adapted, injuries are more common and once again self preservation is part of it. Murray and Mahomes sometimes seem to hold onto the ball forever to extend plays. Burrow moves very well but is definitely not a running QB. Stafford is more like Brady.

As far as the rookies went it was the pocket passer in Jones that had the best season. Best coach and best protection ? Compare Jones to what Lawrence and Fields had to go through. Fields was getting abused in many of his early games. it seems Shanahan is okay about risking his new QB that cost him multiple first round picks. In Lance's first game against the Cardinals who had the best defense in the league at that point, Kyle was calling run play after run play for Lance. The result from his first game, a knee strain and a chipped finger on his throwing hand. Watson has been off the field for a long time and the worst thing that could happen to the Browns is an injury to Watson especially after it cost them so much. Obviously Watson won't be changing his style much but he will also be rusty after so long off the field. The best of the new generation of QBs namely Burrow and Henry are not running QBs. So its going to be interesting to see how Lance and Fields progress and how much the 49ers offense changes. There is already talk about them changing their run game to more of a power run game and they no longer have Breida and Mostert. And now they have added speed to the WR group which means they will be going downfield more often while with the Jimmy G offense it was mainly a short passing game. Lance has already shown that he has a stronger arm than Jimmy but whether he can feed the offense as well as Jimmy remains to be seen.

Josh Allen is a big Linebacker that can throw. He's a bit of a unicorn.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Good posts. I tend to think of Mahomes as more of a mobile QB than a QB that will run. Using his feet to both deftly witin a morphig pocket, but also able to move keep plays alive. He's more like Russell Wilson in this regard.

I think the two really big questions we need to see on Lance are how quickly can he go through progressions, and how quickly can he pull the trigger. The NFL game moves so fast, if he hesitates for one second, a gap he thought would be open, now leads to a pick. Also, despite talk about his strong arm, which I believe, I want to know about his deep field accuracy, which means more.

There was much speculation before the game and after that sound coaching wouldn't have played RGIII on that knee. Who made the final call on that career-wrecking choice?

It has to fall on Mike Shanahan more than anyone I would think. I had to look the inury up. His knee was hurt in a late December game against Baltimore. I can't tell if he had partially torn either ligament at that point, but he didn't miss much time, though the team doctor did NOT give him permission to play. But the team had to think in a way this was their One Great Chance, to win with him, so the put him back in there, and his knee was basically ruined in that playoff game against Seattle. Here's the play. Not gruesome, just sad.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzaKBxTDEN0

 

[Oldermanish]

Good posts. I tend to think of Mahomes as more of a mobile QB than a QB that will run. Using his feet to both deftly witin a morphig pocket, but also able to move keep plays alive. He's more like Russell Wilson in this regard.

I think the two really big questions we need to see on Lance are how quickly can he go through progressions, and how quickly can he pull the trigger. The NFL game moves so fast, if he hesitates for one second, a gap he thought would be open, now leads to a pick. Also, despite talk about his strong arm, which I believe, I want to know about his deep field accuracy, which means more.


It has to fall on Mike Shanahan more than anyone I would think. I had to look the inury up. His knee was hurt in a late December game against Baltimore. I can't tell if he had partially torn either ligament at that point, but he didn't miss much time, though the team doctor did NOT give him permission to play. But the team had to think in a way this was their One Great Chance, to win with him, so the put him back in there, and his knee was basically ruined in that playoff game against Seattle. Here's the play. Not gruesome, just sad.

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JzaKBxTDEN0

On RGIII
The knee injury didn't look gruesome but I could feel the "pop" behind my ear when he went down. Then the pain and recognition that your athletic fate has taken a turn. Very tough stuff.
Shanahan was the answer I was looking for as the responsible party.

 

[movingtarget]

View: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jCIL260tQyM

 

[SHAD0W93]

Josh Allen is a big Linebacker that can throw. He's a bit of a unicorn.

Allen saw how Big Ben and Luck played and loved all of it. He might be even bigger then they were.

 

[movingtarget]

Yes very sad..........

 

[movingtarget]

Allen saw how Big Ben and Luck played and loved all of it. He might be even bigger then they were.

What might have been for Luck.........still retirement was completely understandable even though the timing annoyed Colts fans or some of them........

 

[SHAD0W93]

Yes very sad..........

Yeah, that was a brutal hit on two fronts. From the defender on the side then face first into the ground. There’s only so much room for our brain to move around before there is no more space. It sucks that these tragedies have to happen before change starts. The blows to the head and back are always hard to see, especially like the Dolphins OL this year that was a touchdown but a flag for ineligible man downfield or awhile ago of Gronk landing on his shoulders and back of the head from getting flipped. Heck got to WWE and you have Brock Lesnar almost breaking his neck from slipping off the top rope on a flip and landing on his head, the only reason he wasn’t more hurt was how much muscle he had. College and pro should have medical expenses covered to help them
as a lot probably don’t have very good insurance.

Then for his trouble sleeping and performing ADLs is just sad. He got abandoned and let to fend for himself. Heck when I got hit by the car, it took months for me to not have to take Tylenol pm in order to fall asleep because otherwise I’d just lay there, no matter how tired I was. And that was with a helmet and one blow. While he basically had 4 hard, blows to his brain with the coup and countrecoup.

What might have been for Luck.........still retirement was completely understandable even though the timing annoyed Colts fans or some of them........

Can only be mad at the management. They ran Luck into the ground and got an OL too late, like how Romo got constantly pummeled before Dallas got an OL. Of course him being who he was didn’t help but it could have been avoided. He lost all love for the game.

 

[Oldermanish]

Allen saw how Big Ben and Luck played and loved all of it. He might be even bigger then they were.

He's definitely stronger and faster. The guy can hit a tackler hard enough they think twice about taking him on.

 

[Nomad]

He's definitely stronger and faster. The guy can hit a tackler hard enough they think twice about taking him on.

Allen is not faster than Luck was - Luck ran an impressive 4.67 at the 2012 combine (4th fastest - RGIII/Wilson/Jefferson) while Allen ran 4.75 at his combine - the same as Big Ben. Size wise they're all about the same - Luck (6-4/235) Big Ben (6-5/241) & Allen (6-5/237). Don't know who's stronger since QBs don't participate in the BP at the combine & there's no other method to measure who's "stronger."

The knock against Allen is he's running the ball too much and risking injury. He put up dual-threat type rushing stats last year rushing 122 times for 763 yds - second behind dual-threat QBs Hurts (784 yds) & LJ (767 yds - though missed 5 games due to injury).

Allen was not a dual-threat QB in college (Wyoming) while Hurts & LJ ran the ball almost as much as they threw it in college - so it's instinctive to them & a hard habit to break in the NFL. Allen has already rushed 422 times in just 4 yrs since starting as a rookie. He may be a bigger QB in the league with decent speed but he's no match for some of these skull crushing LBs who are weighing in over 230 lbs & running mind-blowing 4.4's. Look at LJ - he's starting to accumulate injuries & I think it's a matter of time before the big one hits him. I'd hate to see Allen suffer a season-ending injury trying to take head on some of these stud backers & safeties (I think he's already had a concussion or two?).

 

[SHAD0W93]

I mean, Jay Cutler has to be the strongest at the bench press. Guy did 23 reps.

 

[Nomad]

HS!...23 reps @ 225 is smoking for anyone let alone a QB (he must have a 400+ max). Those were the days when the QBs did BP & mixed it up with everyone at the combine. Nowadays GMs don't what their prize possessions rupturing a pec muscle or tearing up a shoulder joint.

 

[SHAD0W93]

HS!...23 reps @ 225 is smoking for anyone let alone a QB (he must have a 400+ max). Those were the days when the QBs did BP & mixed it up with everyone at the combine. Nowadays GMs don't what their prize possessions rupturing a pec muscle or tearing up a shoulder joint.

They don’t call him “Smokin” Cutler for no reason. I think from his own mouth he didn’t even have to or was asked to do the BP. He just wanted to do it to show how strong he was.

Jay Cutler | Combine Results | QB - Vanderbilt

NFL Scouting Combine and Pro Day scores, percentiles and metrics for Jay Cutler, QB, Vanderbilt.

nflcombineresults.com

 

[SHAD0W93]

HS!...23 reps @ 225 is smoking for anyone let alone a QB (he must have a 400+ max). Those were the days when the QBs did BP & mixed it up with everyone at the combine. Nowadays GMs don't what their prize possessions rupturing a pec muscle or tearing up a shoulder joint.

Who Has the Strongest Arm in the NFL?

While possessing a strong arm isn't a requirement for the top quarterbacks in the NFL , it is a nice quality to have...

syndication.bleacherreport.com

Cutler can bench press 405 pounds, and at the NFL Scouting Combine he put together a string of 23 bench repetitions of 225 pounds. In his four seasons, Vanderbilt coaches say, he missed only one practice, and he has bulked up by about 40 pounds since his freshman season.

According to a report by Jim Wyatt of The Tennessean, Cutler volunteered to participate in the bench press and lifted 225 pounds 23 times.


Cutler had fully embraced the challenge in front of him, telling reporters: “You come here to show what you have. All the coaches are here, all the GMs, everyone is here.”

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

There was a play I think Denver designed for Cutler that I can't find. In fact, there's only two times a team has run it. The first was for John Elway.

The play goes like this, the QB purposeful rolls right with the pocket, the offense then tilts the field on a 45 off-angle, with the receivers now running routes ignoring the north-south rule. 1-2 receivers then cut back against the field to the back side, the opposite side of the field, where the QB finds them open. Put another way, the defense is expecting you to throw the ball down the field, but you're playing like your entire offense is trying to move the ball from one corner of the field to the other. I believe both Elway and Cutler completed the pass on the play.

I'm not sure if I'm making it clear, but this point is this: it's a huge no-no to throw the ball against the field like that, the ball simply cannot travel that fast, and DBs can quickly close that gap and either int the ball, or at least tip it. As a result, receivers running that direction (from mid-field, away from the QB to the opposite side of the field) are left almost, mostly open. Granted, it only results in a 5-20 yard gain if you complete it, and is still a risk, but it takes an extremely strong armed QB to even consider and attempt it. But NO defensive back or LB is expecting it.

Very strong armed QB's have completed a few passes against the grain, usually on broken plays. Aaron Rodgers has done it a more than a couple times, but it's never, ever designed this way. There's too much risk. Cutler (and Elway), their coach was willing to take that risk.

 

[SHAD0W93]

There was a play I think Denver designed for Cutler that I can't find. In fact, there's only two times a team has run it. The first was for John Elway.

The play goes like this, the QB purposeful rolls right with the pocket, the offense then tilts the field on a 45 off-angle, with the receivers now running routes ignoring the north-south rule. 1-2 receivers then cut back against the field to the back side, the opposite side of the field, where the QB finds them open. Put another way, the defense is expecting you to throw the ball down the field, but you're playing like your entire offense is trying to move the ball from one corner of the field to the other. I believe both Elway and Cutler completed the pass on the play.

I'm not sure if I'm making it clear, but this point is this: it's a huge no-no to throw the ball against the field like that, the ball simply cannot travel that fast, and DBs can quickly close that gap and either int the ball, or at least tip it. As a result, receivers running that direction (from mid-field, away from the QB to the opposite side of the field) are left almost, mostly open. Granted, it only results in a 5-20 yard gain if you complete it, and is still a risk, but it takes an extremely strong armed QB to even consider and attempt it. But NO defensive back or LB is expecting it.

Very strong armed QB's have completed a few passes against the grain, usually on broken plays. Aaron Rodgers has done it a more than a couple times, but it's never, ever designed this way. There's too much risk. Cutler (and Elway), their coach was willing to take that risk.

Yeah your top is what the article I posted said as well. I didn’t see the okay you were talking about in the video though.

Cutler possesses one of the strongest arms that I have ever seen. Even scouting him from an early age at Vanderbilt, it became clear that the former first-round pick could make every single throw on the football field with ease. His ability to throw from the right hash to the left sideline on a 20-yard out never ceases to amaze.



Honestly, if Cutler had Brady’s work ethic he could have been unstoppable. Another thing I guess was going on is he is a diabetic so when his sugar was low people would think that’s just how he is. Like how Brett Michaels had the drug rep for a little bit since he is a diabetic and had a seizure at a concert.

That also goes with why he was always stand-off to people, because that’s how everyone treated him and talked trash on him. So he gave up and said F it. Honestly if he didn’t get injured it could have been Chicago in the Super Bowl with Rodgers getting even more scrutiny.

 

[movingtarget]

They don’t call him “Smokin” Cutler for no reason. I think from his own mouth he didn’t even have to or was asked to do the BP. He just wanted to do it to show how strong he was.

Jay Cutler | Combine Results | QB - Vanderbilt

NFL Scouting Combine and Pro Day scores, percentiles and metrics for Jay Cutler, QB, Vanderbilt.

nflcombineresults.com

Cutler was a character. You get the feeling it all came a bit too easily for him. Wonder what he would have done with a Brady type mindset..........

 

[Nomad]

There was a play I think Denver designed for Cutler that I can't find. In fact, there's only two times a team has run it. The first was for John Elway.

The play goes like this, the QB purposeful rolls right with the pocket, the offense then tilts the field on a 45 off-angle, with the receivers now running routes ignoring the north-south rule. 1-2 receivers then cut back against the field to the back side, the opposite side of the field, where the QB finds them open. Put another way, the defense is expecting you to throw the ball down the field, but you're playing like your entire offense is trying to move the ball from one corner of the field to the other. I believe both Elway and Cutler completed the pass on the play.

I'm not sure if I'm making it clear, but this point is this: it's a huge no-no to throw the ball against the field like that, the ball simply cannot travel that fast, and DBs can quickly close that gap and either int the ball, or at least tip it. As a result, receivers running that direction (from mid-field, away from the QB to the opposite side of the field) are left almost, mostly open. Granted, it only results in a 5-20 yard gain if you complete it, and is still a risk, but it takes an extremely strong armed QB to even consider and attempt it. But NO defensive back or LB is expecting it.

Very strong armed QB's have completed a few passes against the grain, usually on broken plays. Aaron Rodgers has done it a more than a couple times, but it's never, ever designed this way. There's too much risk. Cutler (and Elway), their coach was willing to take that risk.

I can't remember that play off the top of my head - that would have been under Mike Shanahan. I know what you're talking about in throwing back against the grain. These cannon-arm QBs would do that on occasion in college but like you said it's an entirely different situation in the Pros with the closing speed of these DBs.

I had season tickets for the Broncos back then & I recall for one game getting to the stadium early to watch pre-game warmups & drills. I remember Cutler was launching some bombs from the end zone traveling about 70 yds - I thought to myself that kid has got one effing cannon of an arm.

Interesting thing about Cutler was all the excitement here when Shanahan traded up to draft Cutler at #11. With his cannon arm, athleticism & the fact he graduated from a think-tank university - the media was portraying him as Elway 2.0. I'll admit that I got on that bandwagon thinking this franchise QB will bring some more SBs to the Mile High City and could break some of Elway's passing records. The guy looked like he had all the makings of a great NFL QB, and with Shanahan coaching him the future could only look bright.

Unfortunately, how things unraveled & fell apart so quickly for Cutler was sobering. Cutler started the last 5 games of his rookie season replacing Jake "The Snake" Plummer. The Broncos were 7-4 at that time & for some strange reason Shanny wanted a QB change. Cutler, a little overwhelmed with the caliber of NFL talent, went 2-3 & the team missed the playoffs. The next two seasons Cutler started & played in all the games with the team going a disappointing 7-9 & 8-8 and no playoffs. With Shanny failing to make the playoffs for 3 straight seasons, Pat Bowlen had just about enough & fired him. Who replace Shanny? Wonderboy from NE was hired & that did not go over well with Cutler. For some reason, he didn't want to play for McDaniels & asked his agent to put together a trade.

So, supposedly the hier apparent to Elway lasted a measly 3 yrs with both he & Shanny gone by the 09 season. I call this Mile High Madness.