Nationalism in pro cycling

[robert_c]

I'll admit to nationalism, but only as a starting point. Meaning I'll cheer for a rider from the USA unless he turns out to be an a hole. I'm not going to cheer for someone I learn to dislike just because he is from my country. I'm certainly not jingoistic.

Nationalism is condoned by the UCI (if that is the correct organization). National champs get to wear special kits etc.

 

[spikycyclist]

Almost everyone I know supports the cyclists whose riding style they like. I've a mate who loves Jens Voigt for his work ethic and never say die attitude. My personal favourite is Gilbert for his amazing attacks.
I am looking forward to a Wiggins victory this year, but mainly as it will raise road cycling's profile in the UK.
I support Cav in the sprints because he does the impossible, not because he is English speaking or comes from a small island that is a UK protectorate.
One of the things I love about cycling is the number of people who overlook nationality and admire the cyclist for their sporting qualities.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

@hrothra, Libertine and Machu

Well we're getting in to the realms of political philosophy, and I suspect the differences between anglo countries and European ones. Europeans seem to have a fetish for the one all-encompassing, trans-national state whilst some anglo countries see the benefits to the more individualistic co-operative approach. If that means you all want to support riders of any nation, that's absolutely fine by me but this forum has been infected by people resentful of British winners and trying to twist that into an attack on British people hiding behind insulting us as nationalistic. I'm proud to be British, I'm proud of what Wiggins, Brailsford etc have done but that does not mean I don't appreciate Tom Boonen, didn't cheer for Uran and Henao in the Giro (whilst respecting and appreciating Hesjedal) and would have been just as happy with an EBH win today rather than a Cavendish one.

And when L'Equipe stop doing full page spreads about a French stage winner, then you can start saying it's only us Brits that get nationalistic. There is no difference between British reactions to Wiggins and French reactions to Pinot.

Being proud and supportive of your own countries riders and admiring riders from elsewhere are not mutually exclusive.

Did I say anywhere that it was only the Britons that got nationalistic? I'm not a fan of it, nor do I really enjoy being caught up in it, in any way, shape or form. It comes to a head quite often with cycling; Britons are the ones facing the brunt of it at the moment simply because they're the ones who are at the head of the field, and yes, there are a bunch of new fans showing up who have been brought into the sport by British success, and who resent the harsh criticism or distaste for them they are seeing on these boards. But the dislike for Sky, or Wiggins, or whoever, is not borne out of nationalism or any kind of anti-British sentiment... it's borne out of being bored or irritated by the spectacle, or lack thereof, in the race, or borne out of dislike of Sky or Wiggins themselves. This dislike can then be exacerbated by clashing with people of opposing opinions who are parroting the "Sky are the best thing since ever!" talk, and resulting in rational people on both sides of the love/hate divide getting tarred with the same brush as their shrieking, extreme counterparts.

There are always rational fans, full-year-round fans and so on anywhere you go. But anywhere you have people being super successful, you have a bunch of fairweather fans brought in by the hyping of success. And those are the most likely to be nationalistic, no?

Also, I would note that apart from Boonen, all your counter examples are riding for the one British team. OK, one of the two British teams at the top two levels. There's Farnese Vini too. Rabottini's awesome. I like EBH and Uran too. Sky didn't bother me at the Giro, because those were riders I like, mostly racing in a way that was at least no less exciting than anybody else at that race. But that doesn't mean that I can't be resentful not of the guys winning, but of the rise to dominance of a particular breed of cyclist that doesn't enthrall me. Not the specific cyclists who are doing so, but the race routes this year have led to very controlled, conservative racing, which as a general rule of thumb has best suited the type of rider that is typically churned out by the Anglophone countries, not because of any underlying national agenda but simply because that's what the possibilities for racing are there (lots of NIMBYs means lots of open road time trialling, track cycling and circuit races, which produces riders whose strengths are trime trialling, sprinting and other aspects of racing that don't excite me).

Emma Pooley is British, can time trial well (former World Champion) and I'm a huge fan of hers.

 

[BillytheKid]

Almost everyone I know supports the cyclists whose riding style they like. I've a mate who loves Jens Voigt for his work ethic and never say die attitude. My personal favourite is Gilbert for his amazing attacks.
I am looking forward to a Wiggins victory this year, but mainly as it will raise road cycling's profile in the UK.
I support Cav in the sprints because he does the impossible, not because he is English speaking or comes from a small island that is a UK protectorate.
One of the things I love about cycling is the number of people who overlook nationality and admire the cyclist for their sporting qualities.

Chris Horner seldom wins much, but he has a great love for what he does and never seems daunted but anything. I admire his attitude more than his racing style. It is too bad that he spent half of his career racing in the US.
I think he could have had some more Euro wins if not for the 2000-04 run in the states.

He fully admits that he has not a clue to life after racing and needs a paycheck. I almost turn pro under the old USA Professional Cycling because all it took was $150. For me it would have been brief career because life was going another way. Horner was one of the few that did it that way and made it. A true underdog.

 

[spikycyclist]

Chris Horner seldom wins much, but he has a great love for what he does and never seems daunted but anything. I admire his attitude more than his racing style. It is too bad that he spent half of his career racing in the US.
I think he could have had some more Euro wins if not for the 2000-04 run in the states.

He fully admits that he has not a clue to life after racing and needs a paycheck. I almost turn pro under the old USA Professional Cycling because all it took was $150. For me it would have been brief career because life was going another way. Horner was one of the few that did it that way and made it. A true underdog.

The situation made him the underdog. I would have liked to have seen him ride as a leader one year. He could have placed highly. He always shows guts and determination. Someone worthy of admiration.

 

[mscaviy2601]

Did I say anywhere that it was only the Britons that got nationalistic? I'm not a fan of it, nor do I really enjoy being caught up in it, in any way, shape or form. It comes to a head quite often with cycling; Britons are the ones facing the brunt of it at the moment simply because they're the ones who are at the head of the field, and yes, there are a bunch of new fans showing up who have been brought into the sport by British success, and who resent the harsh criticism or distaste for them they are seeing on these boards. But the dislike for Sky, or Wiggins, or whoever, is not borne out of nationalism or any kind of anti-British sentiment... it's borne out of being bored or irritated by the spectacle, or lack thereof, in the race, or borne out of dislike of Sky or Wiggins themselves. This dislike can then be exacerbated by clashing with people of opposing opinions who are parroting the "Sky are the best thing since ever!" talk, and resulting in rational people on both sides of the love/hate divide getting tarred with the same brush as their shrieking, extreme counterparts.

There are always rational fans, full-year-round fans and so on anywhere you go. But anywhere you have people being super successful, you have a bunch of fairweather fans brought in by the hyping of success. And those are the most likely to be nationalistic, no?

Also, I would note that apart from Boonen, all your counter examples are riding for the one British team. OK, one of the two British teams at the top two levels. There's Farnese Vini too. Rabottini's awesome. I like EBH and Uran too. Sky didn't bother me at the Giro, because those were riders I like, mostly racing in a way that was at least no less exciting than anybody else at that race. But that doesn't mean that I can't be resentful not of the guys winning, but of the rise to dominance of a particular breed of cyclist that doesn't enthrall me. Not the specific cyclists who are doing so, but the race routes this year have led to very controlled, conservative racing, which as a general rule of thumb has best suited the type of rider that is typically churned out by the Anglophone countries, not because of any underlying national agenda but simply because that's what the possibilities for racing are there (lots of NIMBYs means lots of open road time trialling, track cycling and circuit races, which produces riders whose strengths are trime trialling, sprinting and other aspects of racing that don't excite me).

Emma Pooley is British, can time trial well (former World Champion) and I'm a huge fan of hers.

Well I could have mentioned Cancellara, Hushovd, Pinot and many others who have grabbed my attention in differing races,

But as you are arguing style, I'll respond on that. Firstly, if you and others feel this has been a boring TDF, why is Sky getting it in the neck for that? They are only one team out of many. What did Euskatel offer the race? Or Lampre? I don't think RSNT attacked once in the whole race and if any team had the freedom or resources to attack it was them. In the end, only four riders really battled for the GC: Wiggins, Nibali, VDB and Evans. That's not a Sky failure, that's a failure of a lack of ambition by almost all the other teams who only cared about a stage win or getting their sponsors name recognised by being in the break of the day.

And as for style preference, I much more enjoyed the drama of riders being dropped as they were on Belles Filles than the Andy Schleck approach of attacking of the front for 100 yds and then sitting up as he does all too often. I actually appreciate the drama of the conservative tactical approach rather than everyone riding up the mountain together slowly constantly looking at each other before someone jumps off with 500m to go.

finally, has there actually been that much "Sky are the best thing ever" talk? I haven't seen it. Or is this another straw man?

 

[djlovesyou]

You are pretty nationalistic though Urlaub. Just not toward the UK.

Tell me you would not support a 'boring' riding Basque rider. I simply can't see it. Your support of Euskaltel and the Basque nation in general isn't merely down to their style of riding.

I'm not as smart in terms of the political arguments here, but is being nationalistic toward your own country different from being nationalistic toward another country?

 

[Arnout]

Well I could have mentioned Cancellara, Hushovd, Pinot and many others who have grabbed my attention in differing races,

But as you are arguing style, I'll respond on that. Firstly, if you and others feel this has been a boring TDF, why is Sky getting it in the neck for that? They are only one team out of many. What did Euskatel offer the race? Or Lampre? I don't think RSNT attacked once in the whole race and if any team had the freedom or resources to attack it was them. In the end, only four riders really battled for the GC: Wiggins, Nibali, VDB and Evans. That's not a Sky failure, that's a failure of a lack of ambition by almost all the other teams who only cared about a stage win or getting their sponsors name recognised by being in the break of the day.

And as for style preference, I much more enjoyed the drama of riders being dropped as they were on Belles Filles than the Andy Schleck approach of attacking of the front for 100 yds and then sitting up as he does all too often. I actually appreciate the drama of the conservative tactical approach rather than everyone riding up the mountain together slowly constantly looking at each other before someone jumps off with 500m to go.

finally, has there actually been that much "Sky are the best thing ever" talk? I haven't seen it. Or is this another straw man?

It's Euskaltel, not Euskatel, just to get that straight first.

Agreed, it's not the fault of Sky only, too many contenders dropped out before or during the race to make it a spectacle. However, if the new cycling with team first, riders are only machines to the awesomeness that is a team (sounds like communism to me, but hey) that is brought into cycling by Anglo-saxon teams and the result of that is the pathetic Froome vs Wiggins showdown in which one rider is not able to show himself as the all animals are equal, but one is more equal than others mentality prevails, you can expect certain cycling fans to be annoyed. It's a direct effect of national influences in cycling, in which even Froome, though he re-registered himself, is not considered the right winner. I think that's disgusting, and I lost all my respect for Froome and Sky because of it. Wiggins is the only smart guy, he knew this was the only way to win the Tour for him and he did it.

To answer your last question: yes, there are. A lot of July 2012 registered members acting very smug. It's not forbidden, but very annoying.

Just to make it clear, patriotism and nationalism are everywhere, in every country. The direct effects it is having on the racing we have today is because of British nationalism. That's why we're talking about it.

You are pretty nationalistic though Urlaub. Just not toward the UK.

Tell me you would not support a 'boring' riding Basque rider. I simply can't see it. Your support of Euskaltel and the Basque nation in general isn't merely down to their style of riding.

I'm not as smart in terms of the political arguments here, but is being nationalistic toward your own country different from being nationalistic toward another country?

I'm not sure who you mean by Urlaub, but the message has the potential of applying to me, so I'll answer regardless of whether you targeted me.

First of all, most Basque riders are quite attacking. I've never really rated Zubeldia (although I found it pretty cool that he was Shacks best GC rider in the end, though not because he is Basque, but because of the failure of that team) or Koldo Fernandez, two relatively high profile Basque riders. In case of Euskaltel, I've had a soft spot for the team since I started watching cycling in 2003 and immediately became a fan of Iban Mayo (me being Dutch and all), because of his riding style. I don't love Basques for being Basque, but because they're reminding me of the past.

I'm also of the belief that the Euskaltel way is old-fashioned and I hoped the team would open up after this year, but it's not happening sadly, as long as they have enough WT points.

 

[djlovesyou]

Sorry, I was talking to 'Libertine Seguros', I just know him by another name.

I must stress that I wasn't getting at him with my post, he always seems to think that I'm making jibes at him all the time, haha. Not getting at you mate.

 

[mscaviy2601]

@Arnout

If it was communism, they'd all wear the yellow jersey. If it was socialism, Wiggins would have to give up his yellow jersey to a team that did very little like Argos, Cofidis or EuskaLtel.

And most sports (and fans) should welcome an influx of new fans. And any smugness is nothing compared to the vitriol displayed against Sky - One only has to look at the number of Clinic posts after Belles Filles. I've seen Wiggins described as "Evil" and Sky as a "terrible disease". I bet none of those were written by Brits and I bet none of those descriptions would have been written about non-British cyclists. The vitriol against Sky has been "nationalism" of the worst kind - European snobbishness that upstarts are potentially revolutionising their beloved sport.

 

[Machu Picchu]

@Arnout

If it was communism, they'd all wear the yellow jersey. If it was socialism, Wiggins would have to give up his yellow jersey to a team that did very little like Argos, Cofidis or EuskaLtel.

And most sports (and fans) should welcome an influx of new fans. And any smugness is nothing compared to the vitriol displayed against Sky - One only has to look at the number of Clinic posts after Belles Filles. I've seen Wiggins described as "Evil" and Sky as a "terrible disease". I bet none of those were written by Brits and I bet none of those descriptions would have been written about non-British cyclists. The vitriol against Sky has been "nationalism" of the worst kind - European snobbishness that upstarts are potentially revolutionising their beloved sport.

So yet again we have another thread with a sky fan using the occasion to whinge about being british, shame but then your post here shows how far your naivety goes.

 

[mscaviy2601]

So yet again we have another thread with a sky fan using the occasion to whinge about being british, shame but then your post here shows how far your naivety goes.

Why on earth would I whinge about being British? I'm just glad that I was born a Brit and not from some other barbarian place

 

[King Of The Wolds]

I take objection to my nationalism being called loathsome.

Human beings, having evolved this way due to the benefits it brings, are tribal and territorial creatures. It's perfectly natural, therefore, to want my own to succeed, in the same way that I wouldn't call anybody loathsome for having the urge to love or procreate.

Friendly nationalism is a force for good. My best experience at any sporting event was a international rugby match when I drank with, exchanged shirts with, and learnt each others songs, with the French in a bar after the game. That wouldn't have happened without a bit a national pride.

July crowd excepted, go easy on us Brits. It's not everyday we get 1-2 in the Tour. And put up with my gloating when I see the Maillot Jaune lead out the Rainbow Jersey on the Boulevard de Cavendish tomorrow. It won't last forever, and the French, Italians, Spanish, Aussies, Slovaks and Outer Mongolians will be handing us our a*ses again before we know it.

 

[Hayabusa]

There's nothing wrong with supporting your countries cyclists.

The fact is that is how most people start off, I started following Cavendish and then got interested in this sport, the history and the whole calendar.

What is wrong is some of the current people here who seem to think that because others started watching in July, it makes them less of a fan or their opinion worthess.

Instead of criticising new fans, welcome them, let them engage in the love of the sport that we all share.

Sure there are some that are just coming on here as a one time thing, but that doesn't mean that you can tar everyone with the same brush.

 

[Mshengu]

nationalism is not the same as liking a cycling team or a cyclist from your own country. Cycling is an olympic sport anyways so nationalities have always played a role. What we should oppose though is prejudice and negative bias due to national origin.

 

[mscaviy2601]

nationalism is not the same as liking a cycling team or a cyclist from your own country. Cycling is an olympic sport anyways so nationalities have always played a role. What we should oppose though is prejudice and negative bias due to national origin.

Nationalism/Patriotism - call it what you will. There's nothing inherently negative about either

What we should oppose though is prejudice and negative bias due to national origin.

We've not seen that apart from those criticising explicitly British riders (and some anti-aussie rivalry (trust me, they give as good as they get and it's mostly tongue in cheek anyway).

Both king Of The Wolds and Hayabusa are two voices of reason.

 

[RedheadDane]

*Runs in*
I totally forgot a team in my little list of "Dane teams"

Rabobank: Matti Breschel!

I keep forgetting about Matti! The random guy on Vacansoleil I remember... not the two-times medal taker at the Worlds.

 

[BillytheKid]

Nationalism? Like every thing else "in moderation" is the way.

 

[PCutter]

Why on earth would I whinge about being British? I'm just glad that I was born a Brit and not from some other barbarian place

Yes, like Belgium or Kenya

 

[perico]

@Arnout

If it was communism, they'd all wear the yellow jersey. If it was socialism, Wiggins would have to give up his yellow jersey to a team that did very little like Argos, Cofidis or EuskaLtel.

And most sports (and fans) should welcome an influx of new fans. And any smugness is nothing compared to the vitriol displayed against Sky - One only has to look at the number of Clinic posts after Belles Filles. I've seen Wiggins described as "Evil" and Sky as a "terrible disease". I bet none of those were written by Brits and I bet none of those descriptions would have been written about non-British cyclists. The vitriol against Sky has been "nationalism" of the worst kind - European snobbishness that upstarts are potentially revolutionising their beloved sport.

Then let me introduce you to Mellow Jonny, otherwise known, in the words of Paul Sherwin as "A CERTAIN LANCE ARMSTRONG."

 

[Arnout]

@Arnout

If it was communism, they'd all wear the yellow jersey. If it was socialism, Wiggins would have to give up his yellow jersey to a team that did very little like Argos, Cofidis or EuskaLtel.

And most sports (and fans) should welcome an influx of new fans. And any smugness is nothing compared to the vitriol displayed against Sky - One only has to look at the number of Clinic posts after Belles Filles. I've seen Wiggins described as "Evil" and Sky as a "terrible disease". I bet none of those were written by Brits and I bet none of those descriptions would have been written about non-British cyclists. The vitriol against Sky has been "nationalism" of the worst kind - European snobbishness that upstarts are potentially revolutionising their beloved sport.

When comparing Sky to a form of governance, I'm talking about Sky and not about the peloton. The other teams can be other countries if you want, so maybe they will have to prepare an attack in the Tour of Cuba. In that case RSNT will race to get them back, in name of capitalism.

If Sky was communism no-one would wear the yellow jersey but the most equal, whether it is Wiggins, Stalin or Jong-Il (no no I'm not putting these three in the same list, Wiggins is way worse ) and the others will be send to a cold and dark place if they oppose. If Sky was socialism, Wiggins would have to share his talent with Knees, meaning no-one will rise to the top and everything will be average. I just proved that communism is better than socialism in getting things done, and it is more preferable if you're on top of the food chain, yet even more frustrating than socialism if you don't belong to the inner gang. History has proven this to be right: the Soviet Union was doing brilliantly till the early sixties, after that it all went pear-shaped. I'm expecting the same thing to happen to Sky, Froome will not work as hard anymore if he does not get rewards.

I prefer capitalism though. Even though some riders may put in an attack too early and grab too much time too soon it is usually more exciting and rewarding for everyone.

Now, a bit more seriously, although I think it does make some sense to compare cycling teams and races to nations in the world, as the mechanisms are similar.

I welcome any new fans, to watch the beautiful sport that is cycling with me. The hatred towards Sky is explainable though, and will be fueled by smugness. The big reason though is that cycling fans who have been around a bit longer find it all so familiar. New training methods, hard work and dedication and suddenly brilliant results. We've seen it, time and time again, over the last 20 years. Forgive us for placing question marks. It's not hatred towards Sky or Britain, why would we? It's hatred towards a return to the old way, US Postal, Kelme, Banesto, etc. Nothing to do with nationality.

If you think so, I urge you to go to the clinic. During the last Vuelta, a topic was made about Cobo sooner than you can blink an eye. That's just one example, there are many more. There's no nationalism, I prefer to call it realism.

When then some new supporters come and think the world is conspiring against them, it can get a bit annoying. We've seen that before, too. Just ask any seasoned clinic poster what he thinks of Armstrong fans.

If you still think it's the Brits vs the rest, well, then I can't be bothered anymore. I honestly don't care about trivial things like nationality.

 

[Arnout]

Nationalism/Patriotism - call it what you will. There's nothing inherently negative about either

If you think it's no problem to say your country is better and sporters from your country are better simply because they were born in said country, nationalism is no problem no.

Patriotism for me is no problem, although I don't understand it. Patriotism is simply cheering for your country and your sporters/whatever for the sake of it, nothing wrong with that.

 

[taiwan]

@Arnout

If it was communism, they'd all wear the yellow jersey. If it was socialism, Wiggins would have to give up his yellow jersey to a team that did very little like Argos, Cofidis or EuskaLtel.

And most sports (and fans) should welcome an influx of new fans. And any smugness is nothing compared to the vitriol displayed against Sky - One only has to look at the number of Clinic posts after Belles Filles. I've seen Wiggins described as "Evil" and Sky as a "terrible disease". I bet none of those were written by Brits and I bet none of those descriptions would have been written about non-British cyclists. The vitriol against Sky has been "nationalism" of the worst kind - European snobbishness that upstarts are potentially revolutionising their beloved sport.

If it was capitalism, WIggins would force all the other teams to lead him out for every stage win and all the jeseys, in exchange for aSky branded bidon, just saying. Probably anarchy would make for the best racing.

I think nationalistic fans lack appreciation for the sport. If all you want is to se your guy win over and over again, how do you enjoy good performances that don't gratify that desire?