Nationalism in pro cycling

[hrotha]

There is absolutely nothing wrong in celebrating one's own nationhood (ie nationalism), the attempts to marginalise nationalism is a liberal manifestation in their desire to create a new world order of centralised govt. structures.

It's quite possible to cheer for your countries own riders without disrespecting those of other teams and nations.

And why is this argument always being brought back to Sky? The most nationalistic of all the teams are probably the french ones. Why do those who have a problem with Sky not have the same problem with Cofidis, FDJ etc? Is it because Sky are British? And is that not just the type of objectionable nationalism they are railing about in the first place?

What the hell am I reading. "Liberal manifestation in their desire to create a new world order of centralised govt. structures" - haha, get a grip, not everything is about US or US-like politics.

It's possible to cheer for your countrymen without disrespecting others, yes, but why would you do that? Why should I care more for a Spaniard than for a Frenchman?

How are the French teams comparable to Sky? Are they bringing in thousands of fans whose only interest in the sport is that their countryman is winning? Are any of them basically a spin-off of the French cycling federation? Is their stated objective to win the Tour with a Frecnhman (someone tell Taaramäe!)?

 

[djlovesyou]

And why is this argument always being brought back to Sky? The most nationalistic of all the teams are probably the french ones. Why do those who have a problem with Sky not have the same problem with Cofidis, FDJ etc? Is it because Sky are British? And is that not just the type of objectionable nationalism they are railing about in the first place?

Yep, that's an interesting point.

It always seems strange to me that those people who are too evolved to resort to supporting people based on country of birth, etc, are very happy to dislike people or teams based on the very same thing.

 

[piemonster]

Go to about 62m in and see Jens reaction to nationalism

http://www.tudou.com/programs/view/p6Sbgzncl58/

 

[Arnout]

Yep, that's an interesting point.

It always seems strange to me that those people who are too evolved to resort to supporting people based on country of birth, etc, are very happy to dislike people or teams based on the very same thing.

I don't dislike teams for being of a certain nationality. To be honest I dislike most Anglo-saxon teams, but that's because I dislike their behavior, with the team first attitude and acting like they reinvented cycling (in case of Sky mostly).

I do dislike people, this summer certain Sky fans, that act all arrogant because a British rider has won the Tour (yes, I've seen people be proud with the British win). I think it's firstly arrogant and ridiculous to be the tough guy because someone else achieved something, and I don't see any logic in supporting anyone solely because of nationality. That's the clash basically.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

"Patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel" - Samuel Johnson

To me, I can understand patriotism in team sports where the participant is representing their country. International football, XC skiing etc. I can also understand it in pure individual sports where the participant is representing their country such as most track and field events. A sport like Formula 1, on the other hand, Fernando Alonso and Lewis Hamilton are not representing Spain and Great Britain respectively, they're representing Ferrari and McLaren respectively. This is amplified with team sports; why would a German want Bayern Munich to beat, say, Milan, unless they support Bayern? Or for a perhaps more extreme example, would you expect a die-hard Barcelona fan to support Real Madrid in Europe because they're from Spain?

Cycling falls between all stools; it is a team event in some respects and an individual event in others. Teams are commercial interests, but there are a growing number of pseudo-national teams. Teams like Rabobank, Movistar or FDJ may be seemingly quite national in their focus, but they are competing in a marketplace in their own countries, and happen to be doing well in it (Movistar in particular, as the downturn in the Spanish economy has killed off much of Spain's PT and ProConti scene, so they remain as the last major bastion of Spanish top level cycling), but they're not the ones I mean. FDJ in particular there may be very French in focus, but they are competing with other French teams. Teams like Astana, Katyusha, Sky and GreenEdge are conscious marketplace killers in their country. Any good young Kazakh or Russian talent is too important to Astana or Katyusha for them not to sign them, regardless of whether it's good for the rider's development or not. See also Sky breaking the bank to buy Wiggins' contract out, get Swift, and signing people like Dowsett. It's worked in Sky's case, but now, they are the only big team in Britain (not that there were any before), and now they've acquired the likes of Cavendish as well, they come across like a Briton's ONLY choice if they want to be a pro cyclist - apart from Adam Blythe and Steve Cummings, are there even any other British cyclists at the top two levels?

I do not like most Anglophone teams and riders. This is mainly because I dislike the style of cycling that has been propagated and created by their national scenes, and I dislike the media bluster and ridiculous self-aggrandizing hype. However, this does not mean that I uniformly dislike riders along national or linguistic lines; Emma Pooley and Mara Abbott are two of my very favourite women's cyclists, I have a lot of time for Robbie McEwen and I even quite like Cadel Evans these days.

 

[Arnout]

This is a good read re: Sky, nationalism etc.
Hard to disagree with too.

http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/07/what-is-my-trouble-with-a-team-sky-tour-de-france-victory/

Yeah, good argument. People reacting are taking Katusha as an example, but that's a team that wants to promote cycling in Russia, with foreign leaders (Purito) or domestic (Menchov this year). Sky is the other way around, they do very little in terms of development in cycling with youth teams and things like that, but are promoting a British Tour win.

There is absolutely nothing wrong in celebrating one's own nationhood (ie nationalism), the attempts to marginalise nationalism is a liberal manifestation in their desire to create a new world order of centralised govt. structures.

It's quite possible to cheer for your countries own riders without disrespecting those of other teams and nations.

And why is this argument always being brought back to Sky? The most nationalistic of all the teams are probably the french ones. Why do those who have a problem with Sky not have the same problem with Cofidis, FDJ etc? Is it because Sky are British? And is that not just the type of objectionable nationalism they are railing about in the first place?

There are a lot of domestic French races, traditionally the French rather stay at home to race than go to other countries. That's why there are a lot of French teams and riders. There's no big French team with a lot of money though, so they don't have a choice but to field French or second-rate foreign riders. Despite that, we see Roche and Taaramäe leading French teams.

 

[piemonster]

Out of curiosity, does anybody have the budgets for the UCI Pro tour teams? I've heard a lot about mega bucks Team Sky, but no actual figures. And definitely none from a reliable source.

 

[piemonster]

Sky is the other way around, they do very little in terms of development in cycling with youth teams and things like that, but are promoting a British Tour win.

Sky Ride!?

 

[gustienordic]

I've always had a hard time with patriotism since I disagree with pretty much everything America does. The only times I follow American athletes and like them more than foreign ones are in the Olympics & Skiing, but even then I still love Dario Cologna, and Kris Freeman doesn't do much for me. Jessie Diggins on the other hand is a good friend of my mine and I have skied with her many times. So in that case I will always be a super fan of hers.

When it comes to cycling, I like the Garmin guys, dislike the RSNT guys, and can't decide about TJ & Phinney. Either way, of my top 10 favorite riders, none of them are American.

 

[Arnout]

Out of curiosity, does anybody have the budgets for the UCI Pro tour teams? I've heard a lot about mega bucks Team Sky, but no actual figures. And definitely none from a reliable source.

There's no real list, nobody knows. A team like BMC has unlimited supply. They might spend a certain amount of money this year (ie their budget) but if there needs to be more spending, it's no problem. Sky is in the same situation. If they need to buy a rider, they will.

That's why budgets only tell part of the story.

 

[Arnout]

Sky is the other way around, they do very little in terms of development in cycling with youth teams and things like that, but are promoting a British Tour win.

Sky Ride!?

That's hardly fundamental is it? That's just a come look at us event.

 

[Arnout]

I've always had a hard time with patriotism since I disagree with pretty much everything America does.

Why? In terms of societies, there's a lot European countries can learn from America. The other way around holds too, mind you.

 

[piemonster]

Would be interesting to see who has spent what at the end of a season to see if it lives up to the assumed expectations.

 

[piemonster]

Sky Ride. No, not to racing, but we are largely fat knackers north of the channel and it's a start

 

[Arnout]

This is also the reason I have a pathological hatred of the Olympics. It's an event of sports nobody cares about (and athletics) but people are massively interested solely because "fans" can walk around in the fame of individuals, working for four years to achieve something.

And in case the sporter doesn't win there's nobody who cares a single second.

 

[piemonster]

This is also the reason I have a pathological hatred of the Olympics. It's an event of sports nobody cares about (and athletics) but people are massively interested solely because "fans" can walk around in the fame of individuals, working for four years to achieve something.

And in case the sporter doesn't win there's nobody who cares a single second.

All I can say about the Olympics is I'm glad it's nearer you than me.

 

[Arnout]

All I can say about the Olympics is I'm glad it's nearer you than me.

Hehe I don't have to pay for it though

 

[mscaviy2601]

This is a good read re: Sky, nationalism etc.
Hard to disagree with too.

http://www.cyclismas.com/2012/07/what-is-my-trouble-with-a-team-sky-tour-de-france-victory/

No, it's very easy to disagree with it - one of the worst argued pieces I've read. Talk about building up straw men just so that he can knock them down.

ther flag-waving types say that a Brad Wiggins/British victory is vital for providing a boost to cycling in the United Kingdom, that a Tour de France victory means that there will be more SkyRides, which are important and necessary for achieving a victory for the British cycling grassroots movement, and then the United Kingdom will be the greatest cycling nation on the planet and now we’ll feel better about ourselves and about our sport and about our national identity.

Where has this been the declared mission statement of team Sky?

As a prime example, take Canadian Ryder Hesjedal. Hesjedal was the first Canadian winner of a Grand Tour. He is a proud Canadian who displayed a hockey stick with a Canadian flag on the podium in Milan. And then, that was it. Was there a giant marketing campaign of “Believe in Canada?” No. In fact, Hesjedal didn’t even go home to Canada, because he had a job to do, because he rides for a trade team based in the U.S. with a roster comprised of a multitude of nationalities attempting to achieve a variety of goals in cycling.

Well maybe if Hesjedal was in the Canadian Olympic team and the Olympics were being held in Canada, then I suspect there's a very good chance he'll have returned there. Similarly, if following this TDF, if thire home country was on the opposite side of the world and they had another race to attend, I suspect the "Sky Guys" would have stayed in Europe too.

And as for this:

with a roster comprised of a multitude of nationalities attempting to achieve a variety of goals in cycling.

this is a good argument. Seriously?

The very same Giro the writer referred too had two riders from Colombia both representing well in the GC riding for a 'British' team. And yet Sky aren't "a roster comprised of a multitude of nationalities attempting to achieve a variety of goals in cycling.". Laughable!!

How do you think Edvald Boassen-Hagen feels about a “British” Tour de France victory? How about Richie Porte? Or Mick Rogers?

I suspect, considering the way they've ridden, they feel very strongly about a Team Sky victory and that is not mutually exclusive to a "British" victory.

 

[mscaviy2601]

What the hell am I reading. "Liberal manifestation in their desire to create a new world order of centralised govt. structures" - haha, get a grip, not everything is about US or US-like politics.

It's possible to cheer for your countrymen without disrespecting others, yes, but why would you do that? Why should I care more for a Spaniard than for a Frenchman?

How are the French teams comparable to Sky? Are they bringing in thousands of fans whose only interest in the sport is that their countryman is winning? Are any of them basically a spin-off of the French cycling federation? Is their stated objective to win the Tour with a Frecnhman (someone tell Taaramäe!)?

Why wouldn't you? If you are a Spaniard then you have more in common with that rider. You come from the same culture, share the same language, maybe the same religion and the cultural implications of that. Of course, when it comes down to it, the Spaniard might be a druggie and the Frenchman the most exciting rider ever and if you are so inclined, then by all means cheer for the Frenchman but we are, as humans, inclined towards those of us who are similar to ourselves. That does not mean however that we necessarily resent those less similar to ourselves.

It's not a particularly difficult concept. It's just human nature.

 

[Wiggins_Sideburn]

Leave us alone and let us enjoy it since we never win anything in football

 

[Machu Picchu]

Why wouldn't you? If you are a Spaniard then you have more in common with that rider. You come from the same culture, share the same language, maybe the same religion and the cultural implications of that.

Wouldn't necessarily agree but even so what bearing would that have on how he/she competes and my appreciation of same.

 

[the asian]

Euskatel is the only exclusive nationalist team in cycling, but the basques have a similar tradition in other sports, etc Athletic Bilbao in Football.
The recent trend in nationalistic started with Non traditional cycling countries like Kazakhstan, Russia, GB & Australia forming cycling teams in the belief that it would give their riders a better chance to have success as well as promote development.
I see no harm in that. Italy, Spain, France,Belgium, USA have had one or two teams at the highest level and most of their riders have enjoyed success at local teams. Etc-Indurain, Armstrong, Boonen, Pantani all rode in local teams.
As more and more cyclists from the non traditional countries turn pro, a need will arise for teams based in these countries.
As for the fans, the hardcore fans will support riders based on style of racing rather than nationality, but the casual fans will be attracted if riders of their nationality are performing well.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Why wouldn't you? If you are a Spaniard then you have more in common with that rider. You come from the same culture, share the same language, maybe the same religion and the cultural implications of that.

I feel a lot more affinity for those in far-flung countries that I share life experiences, tastes and interests with than those who don't share any of those with me but come from the same country.

And to take another example, Parrulo, our erstwhile moderator, is Portuguese. He's from a town right up against the Spanish border in the north of the country. A Spanish rider could be born 10km from him, and why would he then root for a Portuguese born down in Tavira or even as far as Funchal ahead of the guy who's so local he could pop round and see him?

 

[hrotha]

Why wouldn't you? If you are a Spaniard then you have more in common with that rider. You come from the same culture, share the same language, maybe the same religion and the cultural implications of that. Of course, when it comes down to it, the Spaniard might be a druggie and the Frenchman the most exciting rider ever and if you are so inclined, then by all means cheer for the Frenchman but we are, as humans, inclined towards those of us who are similar to ourselves. That does not mean however that we necessarily resent those less similar to ourselves.

It's not a particularly difficult concept. It's just human nature.

I'm not saying it's a complicated concept for me to understand (group mentality, it's not rocket science), but we're rational beings here, surely we can go beyond mere social instincts?

You might get more exposure to riders from your own country or who speak your language, and thus get to appreciate them as people, but in this time and age you can do that with pretty much everybody. Judging from Twitter, I'm pretty sure I have more in common with Taylor Phinney or Manuel Quinziato than with Jesús Hernández (to name a cyclist from Madrid).

 

[mscaviy2601]

@hrothra, Libertine and Machu

Well we're getting in to the realms of political philosophy, and I suspect the differences between anglo countries and European ones. Europeans seem to have a fetish for the one all-encompassing, trans-national state whilst some anglo countries see the benefits to the more individualistic co-operative approach. If that means you all want to support riders of any nation, that's absolutely fine by me but this forum has been infected by people resentful of British winners and trying to twist that into an attack on British people hiding behind insulting us as nationalistic. I'm proud to be British, I'm proud of what Wiggins, Brailsford etc have done but that does not mean I don't appreciate Tom Boonen, didn't cheer for Uran and Henao in the Giro (whilst respecting and appreciating Hesjedal) and would have been just as happy with an EBH win today rather than a Cavendish one.

And when L'Equipe stop doing full page spreads about a French stage winner, then you can start saying it's only us Brits that get nationalistic. There is no difference between British reactions to Wiggins and French reactions to Pinot.

Being proud and supportive of your own countries riders and admiring riders from elsewhere are not mutually exclusive.