NBA / NCAA Basketball

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Apr 30, 2018
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Re: Re:

The Hitch said:
jmdirt said:
IMO Top 5:
Air
King
Bird
Magic
Sky Hook
Duncan, Malone (both of em), Shaq, Kobe? to fill out the top 10.

Russell, West, Robertson, Wilt...I din't see them play with my own eyes (well lots of replays but...) so I can't honestly say where I would put them in the top 5 or 10.

Its pretty tough to base comparisons on stats because its a team sport, so the other guys influence the numbers as well. I'm a HUGE Bird fan, but know that he was great because of the people around him. I also know that he could have had bigger numbers had the people around him not been as good.

With respect Red, putting Kobe ahead of James, makes me question what you are ranking (just rings?). IMO he barely makes the top 10 from 1975 to now so if you add in the older guys, I don't even see him in the top 10.

As with any GOAT comparison, its pretty tough to compare eras/generations.

I haven't been watching for as long as most so with all these players except Lebron, Duncan and Kobe I didn't see them.

Based on the stats - individual and championships, I would have it as

1 Jordan
2 Wilt
3 Lebron (but climbing and CAN surpass Jordan. The idea that because he loses finals he cant is ridiculous).
4 Magic
5 Kareem
Mine are the same!
 
Aug 3, 2009
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Cavs inept defense allows other teams to get easy buckets. Too many layups and dunks.Cavs have to work very hard on the offensive end for their buckets.
 
I sometimes get the impression that some of these teams reach the point of a game, and as early as the middle of the third quarter, when they are getting run off the court, that they are just going to shut it down and begin resting for the next game. There seems to be an inability to make adjustments on the fly as opposed to doing so during the halftime.

Houston seemed to be successful in going at Curry in game 2 and were continuing that strategy in the first half of game 3. Third quarter arrives, the Warriors go on a run and, unless I just was too caught up in the resurgence of Curry, the Rockets lost track of that winning tactic, and became completely rudderless.
 
Angliru said:
I sometimes get the impression that some of these teams reach the point of a game, and as early as the middle of the third quarter, when they are getting run off the court, that they are just going to shut it down and begin resting for the next game. There seems to be an inability to make adjustments on the fly as opposed to doing so during the halftime.

Houston seemed to be successful in going at Curry in game 2 and were continuing that strategy in the first half of game 3. Third quarter arrives, the Warriors go on a run and, unless I just was too caught up in the resurgence of Curry, the Rockets lost track of that winning tactic, and became completely rudderless.
Ya, there was a point when Houston threw in the towel, which was evident to me when they started subbing in players who never usually see the court. I thought that was more into the 4th quarter. It seemed to me and commentators that Curry kind of flipped the cards on Houston's Harden, who had been putting in effective efforts guarding Curry. The first couple of games Harden was able to sustain the effort. But in game 3 Curry (& GS) did a defensive number on Harden, making him work much harder for his points and wearing him out. That may have helped Curry go on his scoring rampage.

NBA though, said it before. Uninteresting play overall, with interesting moments. Too much isolated play, and too much chucking up the rock without any passing, and not enough team play. GS does do a better job of that than most but it still happens that way even with them.
 
on3m@n@rmy said:
Angliru said:
I sometimes get the impression that some of these teams reach the point of a game, and as early as the middle of the third quarter, when they are getting run off the court, that they are just going to shut it down and begin resting for the next game. There seems to be an inability to make adjustments on the fly as opposed to doing so during the halftime.

Houston seemed to be successful in going at Curry in game 2 and were continuing that strategy in the first half of game 3. Third quarter arrives, the Warriors go on a run and, unless I just was too caught up in the resurgence of Curry, the Rockets lost track of that winning tactic, and became completely rudderless.
Ya, there was a point when Houston threw in the towel, which was evident to me when they started subbing in players who never usually see the court. I thought that was more into the 4th quarter. It seemed to me and commentators that Curry kind of flipped the cards on Houston's Harden, who had been putting in effective efforts guarding Curry. The first couple of games Harden was able to sustain the effort. But in game 3 Curry (& GS) did a defensive number on Harden, making him work much harder for his points and wearing him out. That may have helped Curry go on his scoring rampage.

NBA though, said it before. Uninteresting play overall, with interesting moments. Too much isolated play, and too much chucking up the rock without any passing, and not enough team play. GS does do a better job of that than most but it still happens that way even with them.
Houston won game 2 by moving the ball to the open man or the available mismatch. They went away from that with Harden and Paul going one on one again. A more committed effort on defense by the Warriors along with better help for Curry on Harden resulting in him forcing the issue and turning the ball over often had bearing on the outcome as much as Curry's resurrection. Of course being at home helps loads too. Still it was just a matter of time before Curry became unleashed and Harden's history of wilting as a series progresses is on display.

Part of what made the Rockets the team with home court advantage throughout the playoffs by virtue of having the leagues best record has come back to bite them. Ryan Anderson was an integral part of their offensive success throughout the season but is seen as a liability defensively in the playoffs, so much so that he has had little time on the court this series. That is one less offensive option for the Rockets and places a bigger burden on Harden's and Paul's shoulders.
 
Re:

on3m@n@rmy said:
Good points. As you can see, I'm not much of an NBA analyst. Lol
You're better than you think. I agreed with everything you said and just added to it. Harden is really an uncommitted defensive player content to gamble for steals putting himself in position to often be beat to the hole as evidenced by Sean Livingston's embarrassment of him that led to a crowd pleasing dunk. He has quick hands that can often lead to steals but more often than not he's left standing flat-footed while his opponent is penetrating his team's defense.

On another note, and one that I probably have brought before but it bothers me: Harden and his two-step either sideways or backward to achieve separation from his defender, followed by a 3 point shot. For the life of me I can't understand why this is allowed. It is in my eyes such a blatant violation that it cheapens the game. Other aspects bother me also like the supposed no hand-check rule that isn't enforced (but not anywhere near as much as this two-step separation bs). The related rule that allows the use of the forearm when a player is backing the defender down, which isn't allowed when the offensive player is face-to-face with the defender. This rule so loosely enforced that it has become useless. Am I the only one that sees this as an obvious traveling violation that is just ignored by the league?
 
Re: Re:

Angliru said:
on3m@n@rmy said:
Good points. As you can see, I'm not much of an NBA analyst. Lol
You're better than you think. I agreed with everything you said and just added to it. Harden is really an uncommitted defensive player content to gamble for steals putting himself in position to often be beat to the hole as evidenced by Sean Livingston's embarrassment of him that led to a crowd pleasing dunk. He has quick hands that can often lead to steals but more often than not he's left standing flat-footed while his opponent is penetrating his team's defense.

On another note, and one that I probably have brought before but it bothers me: Harden and his two-step either sideways or backward to achieve separation from his defender, followed by a 3 point shot. For the life of me I can't understand why this is allowed. It is in my eyes such a blatant violation that it cheapens the game. Other aspects bother me also like the supposed no hand-check rule that isn't enforced (but not anywhere near as much as this two-step separation bs). The related rule that allows the use of the forearm when a player is backing the defender down, which isn't allowed when the offensive player is face-to-face with the defender. This rule so loosely enforced that it has become useless. Am I the only one that sees this as an obvious traveling violation that is just ignored by the league?
Thanks, its just I don't follow NBA anymore at all except during playoffs.

As for Harden's 2-step moves, I agree it cheapens the game. That kind of shot is the type I include when I get disgusted when players "chuck up the rock" without any ball movement (passing). Maybe not as blatant, but Curry does it too. However, last night we also saw Curry dish off to a teammate, who Curry sped past into the corner, where Curry received a return pass and then put up a 3-pointer. Nothing but net. The difference - Curry used the other players and ball movement to get an open shot. The disgusting part to me is the Harden type of 2-step is blatantly uninteresting. At least the Curry shot I described here required some teamwork or team execution. I would probably stop short of calling Harden's 2-step a violation, unless he does it at times without dribbling. I just have not watched Harden enough to know whether he travels at times.

I'm not an NBA rule expert, but as for the forearm usage facing a defender, how many times have we seen Lebron do that facing a defender, or trying to go around a defender (while not backing in)? I've seen it often enough I just assumed it was legal. I used to use that trick all the time playing 1-on-1 vs my son, who was immovable as an anchored post. Very good trick for getting separation and protecting the ball. This gives the offensive player an advantage.

My other pet peeve is rookies getting foul calls vs someone like Lebron, but if it was Durant guarding Lebron it would be a no-call. A rule's a rule. Refs should just call it consistently.
 
Angliru said:
Of course being at home helps loads too.
Home court definitely matters. Since 2015, the Warriors in the postseason are 36-5 at home, 21-13 on the road. Like a 72 win team at home vs. a 50 win team win on the road. It was a very small sample size, but last year’s finals showed this in a microcosm. The Warriors won all three games at home, all by comfortable margins. On the road, they were blown out in one game and barely won the other after a late fourth quarter rally. Or just look at the current Bos-Cle series.

Another stat speaks to both home advantage and focus. During that same period, the Warriors's record in different postseason games:

Game 1: 14-1
Game 2: 12-3
Game 3: 8-7
Game 4: 10-4

Why the poor record in Game 3? Until this series, they always had home court advantage, so Game 3 was always on the road. It’s also obvious from their record in Games 1 and 2 that they usually won both those games, and probably let up a little in Game 3. Then got a little more serious in Game 4.

Meanwhile, Iggy is doubtful for Game 4. They really need his defense.
 
RE: Traveling violation in the NBA: 12.1.71.3: NBA players are allowed four steps without dribbling except for twice during the game when the ref calls traveling so that the fans can't say that they never call traveling. Just as bad is how they dribble from the bottom of the ball on every possession.
 
Re:

jmdirt said:
RE: Traveling violation in the NBA: 12.1.71.3: NBA players are allowed four steps without dribbling except for twice during the game when the ref calls traveling so that the fans can't say that they never call traveling. Just as bad is how they dribble from the bottom of the ball on every possession.
The thing about the bottom of the ball dribbling is that it's usually done unconsciously by most of the players and often not to gain an advantage, such that it seems more of a bad habit that could be broken if the refs enforced the rules. I saw Chris Paul do it while dribbling cross court on the perimeter. I guess the league evolves to allow certain things that if called everytime would completely disrupt the flow of the game.

Apparently Harden's two-step move is within the rules according to a couple of NBA referee's videos addressing the issue that I viewed on youtube. It, in my eyes, still looks like traveling. When I played years ago I had a move that created space from my defender but it was within the middle of ending my dribble. It usually worked except against extremely long and athletic defenders (I'm 5'-10"). It involved a movement forward while dribbling followed by a jump back in ending my dribble landing on two feet and shooting my jumper. Harden's move seems to introduce an extra step in there somewhere, all within the rules according to these referee's and universally accepted by the league's refs as I've never seen a violation called on him for doing it.
 
Re: Re:

Angliru said:
jmdirt said:
RE: Traveling violation in the NBA: 12.1.71.3: NBA players are allowed four steps without dribbling except for twice during the game when the ref calls traveling so that the fans can't say that they never call traveling. Just as bad is how they dribble from the bottom of the ball on every possession.
The thing about the bottom of the ball dribbling is that it's usually done unconsciously by most of the players and often not to gain an advantage, such that it seems more of a bad habit that could be broken if the refs enforced the rules. I saw Chris Paul do it while dribbling cross court on the perimeter. I guess the league evolves to allow certain things that if called everytime would completely disrupt the flow of the game.

Apparently Harden's two-step move is within the rules according to a couple of NBA referee's videos addressing the issue that I viewed on youtube. It, in my eyes, still looks like traveling. When I played years ago I had a move that created space from my defender but it was within the middle of ending my dribble. It usually worked except against extremely long and athletic defenders (I'm 5'-10"). It involved a movement forward while dribbling followed by a jump back in ending my dribble landing on two feet and shooting my jumper. Harden's move seems to introduce an extra step in there somewhere, all within the rules according to these referee's and universally accepted by the league's refs as I've never seen a violation called on him for doing it.
I would argue that letting a violation go is not evolution. For the sake of argument, let's say that Magic started using it as an advantage. If the refs would have called him a few times per game, it wouldn't have become the norm that it is today. In other words, if they would have done their jobs then, it wouldn't be to the point of disrupting the game to call it now.

I see an extra step a lot with the cross-over. Most players stop dribbling too soon and take too many steps now. Its similar to what you described, in that the timing of the last dribble is key.
 
Brown's arrest: IMO: The cops were way over top. Brown could have made it easier, but entitled, egocentrism doesn't warrant what happened. Obviously the question is did race have anything to do with it, or would the reaction have been the same if his skin was lighter? Unless the first officer said "I need backup with a black perp" the over reaction with backup can't be blamed on race. Their actions once they all got there...WTH?!
 
Re:

jmdirt said:
Brown's arrest: IMO: The cops were way over top. Brown could have made it easier, but entitled, egocentrism doesn't warrant what happened. Obviously the question is did race have anything to do with it, or would the reaction have been the same if his skin was lighter? Unless the first officer said "I need backup with a black perp" the over reaction with backup can't be blamed on race. Their actions once they all got there...WTH?!
Yes it was over the top as is parking in a disabled spot. But why put yourself in a position to get involved with cops these days ? They are shooting white women in their pyjamas who actually called the cops !
 
Re: Re:

jmdirt said:
Angliru said:
jmdirt said:
RE: Traveling violation in the NBA: 12.1.71.3: NBA players are allowed four steps without dribbling except for twice during the game when the ref calls traveling so that the fans can't say that they never call traveling. Just as bad is how they dribble from the bottom of the ball on every possession.
The thing about the bottom of the ball dribbling is that it's usually done unconsciously by most of the players and often not to gain an advantage, such that it seems more of a bad habit that could be broken if the refs enforced the rules. I saw Chris Paul do it while dribbling cross court on the perimeter. I guess the league evolves to allow certain things that if called everytime would completely disrupt the flow of the game.

Apparently Harden's two-step move is within the rules according to a couple of NBA referee's videos addressing the issue that I viewed on youtube. It, in my eyes, still looks like traveling. When I played years ago I had a move that created space from my defender but it was within the middle of ending my dribble. It usually worked except against extremely long and athletic defenders (I'm 5'-10"). It involved a movement forward while dribbling followed by a jump back in ending my dribble landing on two feet and shooting my jumper. Harden's move seems to introduce an extra step in there somewhere, all within the rules according to these referee's and universally accepted by the league's refs as I've never seen a violation called on him for doing it.
I would argue that letting a violation go is not evolution. For the sake of argument, let's say that Magic started using it as an advantage. If the refs would have called him a few times per game, it wouldn't have become the norm that it is today. In other words, if they would have done their jobs then, it wouldn't be to the point of disrupting the game to call it now.

I see an extra step a lot with the cross-over. Most players stop dribbling too soon and take too many steps now. Its similar to what you described, in that the timing of the last dribble is key.
Jmdirt is right. I never paid close attention but Harden's 2 step is a traveling violation that should be called. SHAME ON THE NBA! Here's an example that went viral on Twitter:
https://twitter.com/danWorthington/status/985703748633878528?s=19
 
Re: Re:

movingtarget said:
jmdirt said:
Brown's arrest: IMO: The cops were way over top. Brown could have made it easier, but entitled, egocentrism doesn't warrant what happened. Obviously the question is did race have anything to do with it, or would the reaction have been the same if his skin was lighter? Unless the first officer said "I need backup with a black perp" the over reaction with backup can't be blamed on race. Their actions once they all got there...WTH?!
Yes it was over the top as is parking in a disabled spot. But why put yourself in a position to get involved with cops these days ? They are shooting white women in their pyjamas who actually called the cops !
Did you see the cop punching the girl MMA style in the face today (white cop/white girl). Again, she could have made it much easier, but the cops could have done better too. Maybe the pressure of the job is driving them insane. I know you couldn't pay me enough to be a cop.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/05/video-catches-new-jersey-cop-punching-woman-suspected-of-underage-drinking-on-beach.html

Sorry for the OT, but its sorta relative to Brown.
 
Re: Re:

jmdirt said:
movingtarget said:
jmdirt said:
Brown's arrest: IMO: The cops were way over top. Brown could have made it easier, but entitled, egocentrism doesn't warrant what happened. Obviously the question is did race have anything to do with it, or would the reaction have been the same if his skin was lighter? Unless the first officer said "I need backup with a black perp" the over reaction with backup can't be blamed on race. Their actions once they all got there...WTH?!
Yes it was over the top as is parking in a disabled spot. But why put yourself in a position to get involved with cops these days ? They are shooting white women in their pyjamas who actually called the cops !
Did you see the cop punching the girl MMA style in the face today (white cop/white girl). Again, she could have made it much easier, but the cops could have done better too. Maybe the pressure of the job is driving them insane. I know you couldn't pay me enough to be a cop.

https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2018/05/video-catches-new-jersey-cop-punching-woman-suspected-of-underage-drinking-on-beach.html

Sorry for the OT, but its sorta relative to Brown.
Cops seem to act as per their protocols these days instead of using commonsense. They prefer to shoot mentally ill people instead of tasering them or tackling them. It seems cops are not allowed to take risks anymore when arresting people, they just go straight for the extreme option. Of course there has to be some good ones.
 

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