Nelson Mandela

[patricknd]

I would appreciate a PM from the mod who deleted my post when i called Mandela a terrorist. I was serious, not at all trolling, and as far as i am concerned, a person who orders bombings and the killing of innocent people, regardless and whatever the purpose, is called a terrorist. Or am i wrong?

If you found my post offencive, then you better get a personality check.

Or you better change the tittle of the thread to, Nelson Mandela is dead and we are here to say good things about him. Only.

Yes he did good, yes he did bad. Yes, he fought for liberty and the lifes of his people, yes he took liberty from others when he ordered their killing.

No surprise if this post gets deleted aswell, but please next time you moderate one, make sure you send me a PM with the reasons.

Must have been due to the discussion of me and another member who posted here aswell by some other members in twitter.

Seriously, i had no intention of offending anyone, just stating my opinion without insulting (what i did) and correctly using the word 'terrorist' according to its concept.

Thank you.

i agree. you are entitled to your opinion, just as the offended party/parties who complained/deleted your post are entitled to disagree if they choose. your post should be restored.

 

[Zam_Olyas]

BigMac, tell this guy

 

[Amsterhammer]

I specifically asked in the OP if people would kindly use this as an 'In memoriam' topic, and NOT as somewhere to debate any political labels they might wish to stick on Madiba.

 

[Le breton]

The problem may have been with someone overreacting to the word ''terrorist'', that they usually affiliate with mass scale murderers and all of that. For instance, one must have tought i was comparing Mandela to the likes of Osama Bin Laden, for that is the kind of person they use the word terrorist on.

Of course i'm not saying Mandela did as much harm as someone like OBL, and of course I am not happy with his death, nor have i shown anything that indicates so. It is factual, history, that Nelson Mandela ordered killings, bombings of innocent people, there is no way do deny that. The ANC bombed train stations, restaurants, and other family meeting locations. Instead, if they so wished to keep this armed uprising, they should have focused on Military and Government targets, not places where children and women hang around.

Terrorism stands for the use of violent acts in order to achieve political/social goals. That is what Mandela did, deal with it.

You probably got me wrong. I am in no way deffending nor supporting the apartheid. I am against racism, fascism, and i think it [the apartheid] was the heck of a bloody nonsence ideal, but i was just reffering facts that can not be denied. I was educated to deprecate any sort of violent acts against all of animal species, so what Mandela did, killing, even though he wanted to free his people, can't be justified. Because in that restaurant, in those family cars, in that train station, among the hundreads of white killed, there were people who didn't agree with the segregation between blacks and whites. The end does not justify the mean.

He did very well for his people, he simply should not have resorted to killing. I have nothing against civil disobedience when its needed (it was), but that doens't mean murdering. Or as i mentioned before, if you think bombings and shootings are indeed required, you must focus on high value targets, those that command the harm.

Easy for you to say.

 

[Boeing]

I would appreciate a PM from the mod who deleted my post when i called Mandela a terrorist. I was serious, not at all trolling, and as far as i am concerned, a person who orders bombings and the killing of innocent people, regardless and whatever the purpose, is called a terrorist. Or am i wrong?

If you found my post offencive, then you better get a personality check.

Or you better change the tittle of the thread to, Nelson Mandela is dead and we are here to say good things about him. Only.

Yes he did good, yes he did bad. Yes, he fought for liberty and the lifes of his people, yes he took liberty from others when he ordered their killing.

No surprise if this post gets deleted aswell, but please next time you moderate one, make sure you send me a PM with the reasons.

Must have been due to the discussion of me and another member who posted here aswell by some other members in twitter.

Seriously, i had no intention of offending anyone, just stating my opinion without insulting (what i did) and correctly using the word 'terrorist' according to its concept.

Thank you.

Our own little form of oppression is so ironic here.


fight on

although i do not agree with your opinion regarding NM

 

[Le breton]

I specifically asked in the OP if people would kindly use this as an 'In memoriam' topic, and NOT as somewhere to debate any political labels they might wish to stick on Madiba.

Hi Amsterhammer, I am really disgusted by some of the contributions in this thread.

If only Israël or Palestine had any political leader today worthy of kissing Mandela's feet!

For me, it's hard to think of another person of Mandela's political stature in the 20th century on this planet.

To think that he was considered as a terrorist by the US until 2008!

How about Kissinger, Bush Jr, just to mention 2 people who are still alive?

 

[BigMac]

I specifically asked in the OP if people would kindly use this as an 'In memoriam' topic, and NOT as somewhere to debate any political labels they might wish to stick on Madiba.

Fair enough, although those weren't political labels, but life labels. Remembering the life and legacy of Mandela as it was entirely.

It's better if i stay way from this thread.

May we keep posting together in harmony in other threads without these events affecting the way we look at each others posts.

I bid you farewell.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Sheesh, let's at least let the man rest in peace.

If you want to debate his politics, or that of his country, there's a thread for that. Take the conversation there, please.

 

[Echoes]

Huge respect for all South African black people who rebelled against apartheid, using violence, sabotage, terrorism, ...

Fighting for your rights, while peacefully strumming on a guitar like hippies in Woodstock, is living in a fantasy world.

Resistants from 1940-1944 on the Continent WERE terrorists and they have my support and recognition.

However for many Africans, Mandela was a traitor. Consider Winnie's opinion about ex-husband. At first I thought she was insane - because I also had admiration for Mandela - but now I think it might be interesting to listen to what she had to say. Was Mandela involved or did he condone Biko's murder?

South Africans are not better off now than they during the apartheid regime.

The RDP was a good attempt at redistributing wealth but MUCH more was needed.

But the straw that broke the camel's back for me was the 2nd Congo War in which he sided Kagame's Rwanda against Congo, thereby serving US and Israel's interest.

This can't be ignored. Mugabe is a hero for many Africans while Mandela is not.

 

[movingtarget]

Huge respect for all South African black people who rebelled against apartheid, using violence, sabotage, terrorism, ...

Fighting for your rights, while peacefully strumming on a guitar like hippies in Woodstock, is living in a fantasy world.

Resistants from 1940-1944 on the Continent WERE terrorists and they have my support and recognition.

However for many Africans, Mandela was a traitor. Consider Winnie's opinion about ex-husband. At first I thought she was insane - because I also had admiration for Mandela - but now I think it might be interesting to listen to what she had to say. Was Mandela involved or did he condone Biko's murder?

South Africans are not better off now than they during the apartheid regime.

The RDP was a good attempt at redistributing wealth but MUCH more was needed.

But the straw that broke the camel's back for me was the 2nd Congo War in which he sided Kagame's Rwanda against Congo, thereby serving US and Israel's interest.

This can't be ignored. Mugabe is a hero for many Africans while Mandela is not.

Mugabe is a hero if living a life of luxury in a country that's been run into the ground is seen as a positive. I can't believe Mugabe has lasted in power for so long. Mandela was a great man in the eyes of many but he will be remembered more as an icon. People that met him and knew him praised his humanity but like most people he was not close to be being perfect. Martin Luther King also polarized opinions. As usual when such people die, much of the truth gets lost in the hype and the media circus.

 

[greenedge]

Mandela avoided a civil war. 50 years of oppression can lead to a lot of the oppressed seeking justice over their oppressors.

He managed to create a situation where black and whites could work together.

SA is not paradise on earth, but without Mandela I think it would be a hell of a lot worse.

RIP Nelson. You will be missed.

RIP Nelson Mandela

I would say my only true hero. I visited South Africa and Robben Island when I was younger. Very impressive. I still remember we visited a school in the slums where they sang a song dedicated to Nelson Mandela for us

You sure he's your only true hero?

Your summary is great/ i agree with it but De Klerk also had a role in stopping a civil war. Over all he was a great person/ the most interesting aspect of my learning of South Africa in Year 9.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

As my previous warning was ignored, I deleted directly political posts, and will now be more direct. If you wish to discuss SA politics, current or past, do so in the World Politics thread, not here.

 

[Bavarianrider]

 

[Echoes]

Yeah censorship, love it.

 

[rhubroma]

Considering all the inevitable sentiments, the press review of Mandela's death made me wryly crack a smile (one knows that the death of illustrious personae provide the living with an excuse to talk about themselves). The dailies more favorable to compromise exalted the great deceased’s role as a pacifier and reconciler, for which the twenty-seven years of imprisonment served above all to demonstrate that not even persecution was able to take from Mandela his heroic disposition toward forgiveness and compromise. Whereas the more restless and anti-cast dailies exalted Mandela the revolutionary, the enemy of apartheid, the imprisoned leader: in short, the man of the fight before the one of governance. At least from the chronological point of view one has to give more reason to the second rather than the first position. At any rate there exists an iron and unavoidable consecutio, between the declared war (the causes behind which make Le Breton's "it's easy for you to say" retort to BigMac's analysis terribly valid) and the peace that came after: namely, the war against racial segregation and discrimination and the regime upon which it was founded. If Mandela were not to have been a revolutionary and a man of the struggle, the problem of "pacification" would not even have been posed, because apartheid would never have been scratched out. Every pacification, though, contains within itself both a victory and a defeat. In this case the victory was the end of apartheid, the defeat the continued unbridgeable gap between the living standards and prospective of whites and blacks in South Africa. And this, in Mandela's biography, was the inevitable transformation that came from moving beyond the man of the fight and into the one of governance.

 

[Netserk]

Sheesh, let's at least let the man rest in peace.

If you want to debate his politics, or that of his country, there's a thread for that. Take the conversation there, please.

Why not allow the same as in Thatcher's thread?

Post #5 in that thread (that I don't think would be allowed in this thread apparently):

There couldn't possibly be a better reason to return....sorry ACF, but I and many of my generation are planning how we are going to celebrate this day!! I have hated this woman for 40 years with a passion that only those who witnessed what she did to Britain in the 70's can imagine.

I marched with thousands chanting, "Margaret Thatcher, milk snatcher" when, as Sec. of Education, she took away free school milk.

A glorious day, enjoy the fires of hell, Maggie!

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Thanks for that great post by Amster... 100% agree.
While I do not see a good record for Mandelas politics, he still is lightyears ahead of neo-cons like Thatcher, Reagan and Milton Friedman (the freak brain behind the now worldwide plutocracy).

 

[patricknd]

Why not allow the same as in Thatcher's thread?

Post #5 in that thread (that I don't think would be allowed in this thread apparently):

Burn !!!!!!!!!!

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

I give. Thrash the man, or each other with all the demagoguery you like. Ive never been that heavy handed of a mod anyway. I merely came in here to wish the man peace. I'm out.

 

[Echoes]

Even if it were true that I trashed "for fun", I don't think it deserves censorship.

You said I ignored your warning but you didn't think that I posted just after your post and I was already typing when you posted ...

Posting on the politics thread is of course a diversionary tactic. Nobody's reading that thread ...

Respecting the truth is a way to respect a dead man and the truth IS that Mandela supplied weapons and ammunitions to Kagame and Museveni in the two wars of Congo (96/97 and 98/2002). War I might've been legitimate because they aided Kabila's rebels against Mobutu but the Rwandese and the Ugandese had different objectives (killing Hutu refugees and robbing Eastern Congo mineral resources). When Kabila asked to get back home, the Rwandese and Ugandese rebelled against him and then they were not legitimate at all. Every other countries in Southern Africa supported Kabila, while Mandela supported Kagame & Museveni. Besides in the meantime those signed contracts with Western companies (like Barrick Gold, from Canada).

Patrick Mbeko says it better than me:
http://therisingcontinent.wordpress...mandela-on-his-93rd-birthday-on-july-18-2011/
Even his ex-wife Winnie publicly stated in the past that her famous ex-husband had sold out Black Africans to the White South Africa. Changes that were supposed to happen with the abolition of Apartheid haven’t materialised for the majority of South Africans, nearly two decades after. Congolese activist Patrick Mbeko goes even farther to declare that it’s not only South Africans that Mandela betrayed, but also populations from the Great Lakes region, where his government has sided with the criminal leaders of Rwanda and Uganda in killing millions of people and exploiting illegally Congolese resources. He explains that ‘in 1996, while Rwanda actively prepared to invade Congo, South Africa was busy supplying ammunitions and other military equipment to the Rwandan regime. South Africa was in fact the first country to supply weapons to Rwanda immediately after the UN lifting of military embargo, following the 1994 genocide.’

Patrick Mbeko adds that as well ‘In August 1998, when the second Rwandan and Ugandan invasion of Congo was underway, South Africa again supplied quantities of military equipment the invaders used. When the countries members of SADC intervened to support Laurent Desire Kabila, [the then president of Democratic Republic of Congo], to stop the invaders, South Africa was the only country from the community of countries of Southern Africa not to join others in that coalition which included Zimbabwe, Namibia and Angola. Seeing the position adopted by South Africa, Robert Mugabe went on treating Mandela of hypocrite.’ In that respect, it’s not hard to conclude that South Africa of Nelson Mandela has so far behaved as all Western countries and others involved in Congolese wars and which continue fuelling instability for now more than fifteen years to gain access to rare and strategic minerals.

Of course Mandela failed at fighting poverty but this has already been said here and I'm fed up having to repeat 1,000 time the same thing, I have to go now.

However I have to add that having said all this I hate the libertarians charges against Mandela, calling him a terrorist and I usually would reply, that they are right. Some of his acts can be considered terrorism, just like the Resistance did in Europe between 1940 and 1944. One's right, you fight for it, you don't gain it by strumming on a guitar like a hippie ...

I hope it's the last time I have to say it.

 

[aphronesis]

Even if it were true that I trashed "for fun", I don't think it deserves censorship.

You said I ignored your warning but you didn't think that I posted just after your post and I was already typing when you posted ...

Posting on the politics thread is of course a diversionary tactic. Nobody's reading that thread ...

Respecting the truth is a way to respect a dead man and the truth IS that Mandela supplied weapons and ammunitions to Kagame and Museveni in the two wars of Congo (96/97 and 98/2002). War I might've been legitimate because they aided Kabila's rebels against Mobutu but the Rwandese and the Ugandese had different objectives (killing Hutu refugees and robbing Eastern Congo mineral resources). When Kabila asked to get back home, the Rwandese and Ugandese rebelled against him and then they were not legitimate at all. Every other countries in Southern Africa supported Kabila, while Mandela supported Kagame & Museveni. Besides in the meantime those signed contracts with Western companies (like Barrick Gold, from Canada).

Patrick Mbeko says it better than me:
http://therisingcontinent.wordpress...mandela-on-his-93rd-birthday-on-july-18-2011/
Even his ex-wife Winnie publicly stated in the past that her famous ex-husband had sold out Black Africans to the White South Africa. Changes that were supposed to happen with the abolition of Apartheid haven’t materialised for the majority of South Africans, nearly two decades after. Congolese activist Patrick Mbeko goes even farther to declare that it’s not only South Africans that Mandela betrayed, but also populations from the Great Lakes region, where his government has sided with the criminal leaders of Rwanda and Uganda in killing millions of people and exploiting illegally Congolese resources. He explains that ‘in 1996, while Rwanda actively prepared to invade Congo, South Africa was busy supplying ammunitions and other military equipment to the Rwandan regime. South Africa was in fact the first country to supply weapons to Rwanda immediately after the UN lifting of military embargo, following the 1994 genocide.’

Patrick Mbeko adds that as well ‘In August 1998, when the second Rwandan and Ugandan invasion of Congo was underway, South Africa again supplied quantities of military equipment the invaders used. When the countries members of SADC intervened to support Laurent Desire Kabila, [the then president of Democratic Republic of Congo], to stop the invaders, South Africa was the only country from the community of countries of Southern Africa not to join others in that coalition which included Zimbabwe, Namibia and Angola. Seeing the position adopted by South Africa, Robert Mugabe went on treating Mandela of hypocrite.’ In that respect, it’s not hard to conclude that South Africa of Nelson Mandela has so far behaved as all Western countries and others involved in Congolese wars and which continue fuelling instability for now more than fifteen years to gain access to rare and strategic minerals.

Of course Mandela failed at fighting poverty but this has already been said here and I'm fed up having to repeat 1,000 time the same thing, I have to go now.

However I have to add that having said all this I hate the libertarians charges against Mandela, calling him a terrorist and I usually would reply, that they are right. Some of his acts can be considered terrorism, just like the Resistance did in Europe between 1940 and 1944. One's right, you fight for it, you don't gain it by strumming on a guitar like a hippie ...

I hope it's the last time I have to say it.

I hope so too.

Deeply, deeply interesting. Now, can you make a politically inflected argument without citing a scholar, nor making reference to the so-called second world war? Try it out. See how you go.

 

[The Hitch]

Why not allow the same as in Thatcher's thread?

Post #5 in that thread (that I don't think would be allowed in this thread apparently):

+ 1 I was thinking the exact same thing netserk.

Free speech is important because it helps develop arguments. If someone says Mandela was a terrorist (a common charge against him) it is better to explain to that person why this is not the case rather than intimidate that person by telling them you wish they were dead (how on earth did that escape a ban btw).

Big mac is quite an intelligent young poster and when I was that age I held some beliefs I disagree with now. In fact I can't trust anyone who goes through life never changing their beliefs because that means they never consider whether those believes are right, but support them for support sake.

Neither has big mac ever showed himself to be hostile to anyone.

If big Mac's comment had been countered with an argument that explained why Mandela was not a terrorist, or an article, then he and others who believe this would have seen why they are wrong and allowed a chance to reconsider, or offer their responces to the points raised.

It could be explained that while Mandela may have been behind some deaths he was doing so in a fight against a regime and ideology that is simply unacceptable and which was persecuting him. I personally do believe that violence is the right thing when it comes to fighting undemocratic regimes. And his comments pre incarceration and behaviour post incarceration clearly show that he was trying to replace it with a fair system.

But instead these posters are intimidated into not posting here again but don't actually know why what they said was wrong and therefore will probably continue to hold that belief, perhaps even more strongly. Big mac doesn't want to take part in the discussion any more. Others who were thinking the same will hold their tongue but also hold their beliefs. What has been achieved?

Also people who don't know that much about Mandela but like him also learn nothing. They see that people post that he is a terrorist and rhat they are told to go die but what actually happened is unclear to them. Maybe next they Google "Mandela terrorist" find an article that says that he was and that's what they believe.

Intimidation and censorship are never the way to counter opinions you don't agre with. They only make things worse and give neither side a chance to either develop their own arguments or consider the merits of the other side.

Also I dont understand why echoes comment was deleted. How is that ny different to amsters comment in the Thatcher thread? It's a lot lot softer if anything. If people think it is tasteless they can comment on it like netserk did. I think it is a very unpleasant comment from someone with an extremist ideology, as I did when he showed no respect to Arnaud Coyot, and as I did when he was praising Bashir Assad as a hero. But an opinion being unpopular is not grounds for deleting it. He has the right to say it, especially since others have been granted that right before.

 

[Netserk]

+ 1 I was thinking the exact same thing netserk.

Free speech is important because it helps develop arguments. If someone says Mandela was a terrorist (a common charge against him) it is better to explain to that person why this is not the case rather than intimidate that person by telling them you wish they were dead (how on earth did that escape a ban btw).

Big mac is quite an intelligent young poster and when I was that age I held some beliefs I disagree with now. In fact I can't trust anyone who goes through life never changing their beliefs because that means they never consider whether those believes are right, but support them for support sake.

Neither has big mac ever showed himself to be hostile to anyone.

If big Mac's comment had been countered with an argument that explained why Mandela was not a terrorist, or an article, then he and others who believe this would have seen why they are wrong and allowed a chance to reconsider, or offer their responces to the points raised.

It could be explained that while Mandela may have been behind some deaths he was doing so in a fight against a regime and ideology that is simply unacceptable and which was persecuting him. I personally do believe that violence is the right thing when it comes to fighting undemocratic regimes. And his comments pre incarceration and behaviour post incarceration clearly show that he was trying to replace it with a fair system.

But instead these posters are intimidated into not posting here again but don't actually know why what they said was wrong and therefore will probably continue to hold that belief, perhaps even more strongly. Big mac doesn't want to take part in the discussion any more. Others who were thinking the same will hold their tongue but also hold their beliefs. What has been achieved?

Also people who don't know that much about Mandela but like him also learn nothing. They see that people post that he is a terrorist and rhat they are told to go die but what actually happened is unclear to them. Maybe next they Google "Mandela terrorist" find an article that says that he was and that's what they believe.

Intimidation and censorship are never the way to counter opinions you don't agre with. They only make things worse and give neither side a chance to either develop their own arguments or consider the merits of the other side.

Also I dont understand why echoes comment was deleted. How is that ny different to amsters comment in the Thatcher thread? It's a lot lot softer if anything. If people think it is tasteless they can comment on it like netserk did. I think it is a very unpleasant comment from someone with an extremist ideology, as I did when he showed no respect to Arnaud Coyot, and as I did when he was praising Bashir Assad as a hero. But an opinion being unpopular is not grounds for deleting it. He has the right to say it, especially since others have been granted that right before.

Very nice post Hitch.

*Okay I'll stop the circle-jerk now* :O

 

[Cyivel]

The Specials did a song about free speech and Nelson Mandela I believe.

 

[python]

I am going to comment on several points here…

Let’s make the squarely on-topic point first. I do believe (based on my own impartial assessment though admittedly incomplete) that NM was an outstanding man. Whatever the controversial emotion and opinions regarding the rebellious PAST , his conciliatory actions as the head of the new post- Apartheid state are the hard fact. Specifically, it is an inarguable fact that he had presided over the unprecedented peaceful evolution whence the oppressed did not exact the revenge they (by all historical precedents) were entitled to. Thus, I do bow my head to the great man Mandela was.

That said, I do find the several posts criticizing Alp as the mod who ‘interfered’ , to put it mildly, misplaced . Or at the least off topic. An off topic post that went un-moderated in another thread is a silly, if not a downright stupid, reason to justify any long-winded however considered or thoughtful off-topic posts in this thread. You want to disagree with the moderation, fair enough, go ahead. But do it in the proper place. Doing it here was and is off-topic whatever the contribution .. That alp has given up so easily, is hardly going to contribute to the great man’s memory…Thatcher or not, NM terrorist pas t or not.