New Astana vs old Astana: martinelli vs. bruyneel

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Mar 18, 2009
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Bruyneel only got in the car for the 'only race that matters' - most of Contador's wins were down to Gallopin or Yates so to give Bruyneel the credit is disingenuous at best.

And, I know a wins a win and all that but it's funny how winning the Tour de Backend ofbeyond suddenly becomes a significant win when it's anything to do with Bruyneel :rolleyes:
 
Feb 14, 2010
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karlboss said:
salvodelli? but I'm not sure johan was directing that one.
Mea culpa. You got me with that one. I was totally unaware of the Giro that year or that Discovery had posted the win. I'll leave now.:eek:
 
Nov 24, 2009
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Polish said:
The Old Astana's results were decent I think.
Lots of Podiums...

[edit]2008
1st, Overall, Vuelta a España - Alberto Contador + 2 stages
2nd, Overall, Vuelta a España - Levi Leipheimer + 2 stages
1st, Overall, Giro d'Italia - Alberto Contador
1st, Overall, Tour of California - Levi Leipheimer + 1 stage
1st, Overall, Vuelta al País Vasco - Alberto Contador + 2 stages
1st, Overall, Tour de Romandie - Andreas Klöden + 1 stage
1st, Overall, Vuelta a Castilla y León - Alberto Contador + 2 stages
1st, Overall, Tour de Wallonie - Serguei Ivanov
1st, Ronde van het Groene Hart - Tomas Vaitkus
1st, Clásica a los Puertos de Guadarrama - Levi Leipheimer
1st, Cascade Classic - Levi Leipheimer
2nd, Overall, Tour de Suisse - Andreas Klöden
3rd, Overall, Dauphiné Libéré - Levi Leipheimer
3rd, Overall, Deutschland Tour - Janez Brajkovic
3rd, Overall, Tour de Belgique - Serguei Ivanov
3rd, Overall, Volta ao Algarve - Tomas Vaitkus
3rd, Overall, Volta ao Distrito de Santarem - Andreas Klöden
3rd, Overall, Driedaagse van West-Vlaanderen - Serguei Ivanov
3rd, Overall, Vuelta a Murcia - Alberto Contador

3rd, Overall, Tour de Georgia - Levi Leipheimer
4th, Overall, Tour de Georgia - Antonio Colóm
2nd, Overall Österreich-Rundfahrt - Vladimir Gusev
2nd, Giro di Lombardia - Janez Brajkovic
2nd, Clásica a los Puertos de Guadarrama - Alberto Contador
Stage wins:
Stage 1, Tour de Romandie - Maxim Iglinsky
Stage 2, Volta ao Algarve - Tomas Vaitkus
Stage 2, Vuelta a Murcia - Chechu Rubiera
Stage 5, Österreich-Rundfahrt - René Haselbacher
National champions:
Serguei Ivanov - Road Race
Vladimir Gusev - Time Trial
Assan Bazayev - Road Race
Andrey Mizourov - Time Trial

Tomas Vaitkus - Road Race
Sergio Paulinho - Time Trial
[edit]2009
1st, Overall, Tour de France - Alberto Contador + 2 stages
3rd, Overall, Tour de France - Lance Armstrong
1st, Overall, Vuelta al País Vasco - Alberto Contador + 2 stages
1st, Overall, Tour of California - Levi Leipheimer + 1 stage
1st, Overall, Vuelta a Castilla y León - Levi Leipheimer + 1 stage
1st, Overall, Volta ao Algarve - Alberto Contador + 1 stage
2nd, Overall, Vuelta a Castilla y León - Alberto Contador
2nd, Overall, Tour de Luxembourg - Andreas Klöden
2nd, Overall, Giro del Trentino - Janez Brajkovič
3rd, Overall, Tirreno-Adriatico - Andreas Klöden + 1 stage
3rd, E3 Prijs Vlaanderen - Maxim Iglinsky
3rd, Overall, Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré - Alberto Contador
4th, Overall, Paris-Nice - Alberto Contador + 2 stages

4th, Overall, Tour de Suisse - Andreas Klöden
1st, Team Classification, Tour de France + 1 stage
1st, Team classification, Tour of California
1st, Team classification, Volta a Catalunya
1st, Team classification, Giro D'Italia
1st, Team classification, Critérium du Dauphiné Libéré
Stage wins:
Stage 1, Tour de Luxembourg - Grégory Rast
Stage 1, Giro del Trentino - Andreas Klöden
Stage 4, Tour de France (Team Time Trial)
Stage 6, Tour of California - Levi Leipheimer
Stage 15, Tour de France - Alberto Contador
Stage 18 (ITT), Tour de France - Alberto Contador

National champions:
Alberto Contador - Time Trial
Janez Brajkovic - Time Trial
All those in red are wins by riders on Astana 2010. Not looking so good for retirement shack now!

Is for riders subsequently done for playing with naughty chemicals
 
Jul 22, 2009
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bianchigirl said:
Martinelli has something in his palmares that Bruyneel has never and will never achieve - the coveted Giro-Tour double. With Contador he has another rider capable of achieving that feat.
Bruyneel did indeed win the Giro, the Vuelta and the Tour in a little over a year, although not on the same year though.

And this is something even Martinelli has never done.
 
Nov 24, 2009
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Señor_Contador said:
Bruyneel did indeed win the Giro, the Vuelta and the Tour in a little over a year, although not on the same year though.

And this is something even Martinelli has never done.
Bryneel was not in the car for all those races, as has been discussed many times
 
Mar 18, 2009
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Señor_Contador said:
Bruyneel did indeed win the Giro, the Vuelta and the Tour in a little over a year, although not on the same year though.

And this is something even Martinelli has never done.
No but Cyrille Guimard did it with Bernard Hinault (1982-3) - and also added GP des Nations and Fleche Wallonne with the same rider plus Lemond's win at the Worlds.
 

Polish

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Mar 11, 2009
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Bruyneel orchestrated his first TdF win with Lance, second with Alberto.
His first Giro win with Paolo, his second with Alberto.
His first Vuelta win Roberto, his second with Alberto.

Martinelli orchestrated his first and only TdF win with Marco.
His first Giro win with Marco, 2nd w/Stefano, 3rd w/Gilberto, 4th w/Damiano.
Has not orchestrated a Vuelta win yet...

Bruyneel's GT WIN "body of work" is probably now complete.
Martinelli may still add to his body of work before all is said and done.

Both geniuses yes. As was Alberto's first Boss Manolo.
 
Aug 13, 2009
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Polish said:
Bruyneel orchestrated his first TdF win with Lance, second with Alberto.
His first Giro win with Paolo, his second with Alberto.
His first Vuelta win Roberto, his second with Alberto.

Martinelli orchestrated his first and only TdF win with Marco.
His first Giro win with Marco, 2nd w/Stefano, 3rd w/Gilberto, 4th w/Damiano.
Has not orchestrated a Vuelta win yet...

Bruyneel's GT WIN "body of work" is probably now complete.
Martinelli may still add to his body of work before all is said and done.

Both geniuses yes. As was Alberto's first Boss Manolo.
By "Orchestrated" you mean "watched the race on TV from his couch"
 
Polish said:
Bruyneel orchestrated his first TdF win with Lance, second with Alberto.
His first Giro win with Paolo, his second with Alberto.
His first Vuelta win Roberto, his second with Alberto.

Martinelli orchestrated his first and only TdF win with Marco.
His first Giro win with Marco, 2nd w/Stefano, 3rd w/Gilberto, 4th w/Damiano.
Has not orchestrated a Vuelta win yet...

Bruyneel's GT WIN "body of work" is probably now complete.
Martinelli may still add to his body of work before all is said and done.

Both geniuses yes. As was Alberto's first Boss Manolo.
Having exceptional talent at one's disposal has made many a mediocre ds look like a genius. Where would Bruyneel have been if Contador hadn't fallen into his hands? Do you think he could have conjured a Tour victory out of Leipheimer? If Armstrong falters this year and Bruyneel's Tour success is left on the shoulders of Leipheimer will Bruyneel's genius and collection of talented but senior stage racers be enough to defeat Contador and/or Andy Schleck? It should be quite interesting, especially since so many believe that Contador will falter without the guidance of Bruyneel.
 
May 15, 2009
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Angliru said:
Having exceptional talent at one's disposal has made many a mediocre ds look like a genius. Where would Bruyneel have been if Contador hadn't fallen into his hands? Do you think he could have conjured a Tour victory out of Leipheimer?
Well, the guy only lost 10 seconds to Evans in 2007. And, IIRC, he was penalized for 10 seconds earlier in the race. Of course, without Contador the whole 2007 Tour would have different scenario, but still-at least in that year Leipheimer had what it takes to be a Tour podium contender and a potential Tour winner IMO.
 
Nov 17, 2009
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This thread reminds me of posts on college football I read about how good a coach is.

Those arguments always go "Anyone could win championships with the talent that guy had"... and my response is always "Then those other coaches should have recruited that talent".

I guess my problem is I don't have enough appreciation for the difference between a "DS" and a "general manager". In many other sports I follow... those roles are often held by the same person... and I value the aquisition of talent equally to the "coaching" or "strategy" that is used in an event to maximize that talent.

Maybe we should say that Bruyneel is amongst the best general managers based on the results brought in by his team... but he might not be anything special as a DS. He deserves some credit for taking a US Postal team who's biggest wins the year before he arrived were at the Tour of Luxembourg, the Cascade Classic and the Redlands Classic and having them win the Tour de France, stages of the Dauphine Libere and Post Danmark Rundt.
 
kurtinsc said:
This thread reminds me of posts on college football I read about how good a coach is.

Those arguments always go "Anyone could win championships with the talent that guy had"... and my response is always "Then those other coaches should have recruited that talent".

I guess my problem is I don't have enough appreciation for the difference between a "DS" and a "general manager". In many other sports I follow... those roles are often held by the same person... and I value the aquisition of talent equally to the "coaching" or "strategy" that is used in an event to maximize that talent.

Maybe we should say that Bruyneel is amongst the best general managers based on the results brought in by his team... but he might not be anything special as a DS. He deserves some credit for taking a US Postal team who's biggest wins the year before he arrived were at the Tour of Luxembourg, the Cascade Classic and the Redlands Classic and having them win the Tour de France, stages of the Dauphine Libere and Post Danmark Rundt.
I don't think there is any question about Johan's ability to scout and recruit talent. In my mind, it's what separates him from the other DS'/general managers.
 
Personally I think the role of DS is over-rated regardless of whom it is, Bruyneel, Martinelli, Guimard. If you have the talent, then yuo can win. I dont hear Jose De Cauwer being mentioned and he won a Tour with LeMond and a crap team.

One thing I have noticed is how people constantly leave out Echavarri/Unzue in this argument. If you are talking about GT wins.

Indurain 5 Tours/ 2 Giros
Delgado 1 Tour/1 Vuelta
Olano 1 Vuelta
Pereiro 1 Tour
Valverde 1 Vuelta -- Echavarri had retired by then, Unzue was team manager.

Also in charge in 82 when Arroyo won the Vuelta but then tested positive.

Throw in the likes of Jose Maria Jiminez and other guys they developed like Menchov/Karptes/Mancebo, not all angels mind but that is some impressive stats.
 
Feb 14, 2010
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Publicus said:
I don't think there is any question about Johan's ability to scout and recruit talent. In my mind, it's what separates him from the other DS'/general managers.
I'm gonna dissent on that. Recruiting talent is more about having a bigger chequebook, secondly about gathering guys who want to win, if you happen to have a big name or two on your team already. Then sometimes national aspirations enter into it. I expect that other team managements sought some of the same riders JB signed, but didn't have as much to offer. Success breeds success and all that.

I have a lot more respect for a team that picks up young unknown talent and develops it properly.

I think I'm drifting off-topic though, here...
 
Mar 12, 2009
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kurtinsc said:
This thread reminds me of posts on college football I read about how good a coach is.

Those arguments always go "Anyone could win championships with the talent that guy had"... and my response is always "Then those other coaches should have recruited that talent".

I guess my problem is I don't have enough appreciation for the difference between a "DS" and a "general manager". In many other sports I follow... those roles are often held by the same person... and I value the aquisition of talent equally to the "coaching" or "strategy" that is used in an event to maximize that talent.

Maybe we should say that Bruyneel is amongst the best general managers based on the results brought in by his team... but he might not be anything special as a DS. He deserves some credit for taking a US Postal team who's biggest wins the year before he arrived were at the Tour of Luxembourg, the Cascade Classic and the Redlands Classic and having them win the Tour de France, stages of the Dauphine Libere and Post Danmark Rundt.
too funny.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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today was written a new chapter in the new astana book. berto and vino worked seamlessly, hugged after the finish and i thought i saw vino flicking a bird towards bruyneel (only french telle showed it ;))

did anyone else see the bird ?
 
Aug 13, 2009
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python said:
today was written a new chapter in the new astana book. berto and vino worked seamlessly, hugged after the finish and i thought i saw vino flicking a bird towards bruyneel (only french telle showed it ;))

did anyone else see the bird ?
The Hog was not at the race today
 
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