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New site design

Page 33 - Get up to date with the latest news, scores & standings from the Cycling News Community.
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Jun 17, 2009
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Stop responding

hugh w said:
And passive aggressive to boot!

Ok I just had my ride along the beach at Pebble Beach CA so now my head is clear.

I hope the boss is looking at these posts...for goodness sake stop these staffers responding they are making your business look like a two bit Corp. What are you going to say at 50,000 posts or 100,000 posts. You must get a PR firm to start to field these questions, you normal staff are not qualified to answer anything. If nothing is going to happen, say so, it would be better to have the sad news now. If you keep this forum going by this time next week I am sure you will have reached 75,000 hits...99% negative. That's going to be a PR nightmare.

I really do hope something happens, because I only join to vent my disappointment, but this is looking like a worldwide revolt. Now it might be that you don't care, but exactly how much did you pay for this business and how much are you willing to spend?

Next Friday, if the thread exists we will see. Good luck, but get the Good Doc to stop posting, your best interests in mind.
 
May 5, 2009
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Ninety5rpm said:
I want to be able to come here and read the news from a few hours ago without learning who won the stage...

It can't be any clearer why we liked the site so much. It is so clear to me that this was the most charming thing about this site, what got you so many fans, so much loyalty and faithful readership! I can't imagine ignoring this point in favor of making the site flashier and prettier. You can't have this many people saying the same thing without thinking 'Oh my God! I'd be failing my hard-core users if I ignore this point! I'd like to keep such loyal readers with me!'

Ninety5rpm said:
In the old format, everything was plain, but neat and tidy.Now it looks fancy, but is actually messy.

I sneaked a look at the site this morning and can see it's getting more organized.

My suggestions:

1. How about a little less purple on the site? I think it's too much. So much of the text and boxes is purple that it's dizzying.

2. How about an Arial-like font for the Live Coverage to make it easier to read? How about a bigger font? How about more white-space? That page is too cluttered.

3. Whenever I go to a news item page, I feel "boxed-in" to the right. It feels cluttered and 'tight' visually. Why don't you pass all your advertisments and 'other features' to the left-hand side? Having all the text all to the right might make me feel less boxed in than when it's crammed to the left. Please! I get claustrophobia reading your current layout. I feel encroached and assaulted. Please!
 
Jun 16, 2009
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Painfully slow.

Site is as slow as our old Ford Escort, and has the same kind of stutters and shakes.

Tried to give it a second chance today, but no go. velonews and dailypeleton have become much better alternatives, I'm afraid. Rarely visited those sites in the past, but what choice do I have?

For me, the site has become virtually unusable, even with a modern cable connection and PC.:(
 
May 5, 2009
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pedrospeeps said:
... stop these staffers responding - they are making your business look like a two bit Corp... You must get a PR firm to start to field these questions, your normal staff is not qualified to answer anything. If nothing is going to happen, say so, it would be better to have the sad news now. If you keep this forum going by... I am sure you will have reached 75,000 hits...99% negative. That's going to be a PR nightmare.

I ... only joined to vent my disappointment, but this is looking like a... revolt. ... get the Good Doc to stop posting, your best interests in mind.

I can't imagine they intend to sound arrogant or defensive... but they seem that way...

manolo said:
Just to get it off my chest... Here's what I would hope you would post here (or something like this...) for those of us who feel betrayed, ignored, trampled:

"We upset your cart. We destroyed what many of you thought was a beautiful site. We took away something you loved and liked for its simplicity. We didn't realize people loved it so much or that it meant so much to them. We screwed it up. It was a very clumsy maneuver and a very clumsy rollout. We never expected such a backlash and apologize to everyone that was flustered, indignated and felt at a loss when we made the changes we made, especially by implementing it without getting your feedback first by setting up a Beta site. We realize we "screwed up" many people's favorite cycling site, completely and forever obliterating a beautiful web experience which will never come back.

Please understand us. We're trying to move forward and look modern and be able to attract advertising dollars, make money and provide jobs to the many people that work here while providing meaningul content to our readers. But we screwed up with many of you. We apologize. Please give us another chance. We will do our best to make the new site a beautiful place to visit for all our loyal readers"

It's been such a painful heart-wrenchig experience, such a personal loss to so many of us, that, honestly, it's like your girlfriend or wife deciding to take on a completely different look, personality and attitude just because she wanted a change and then surprising you with the changes overnight. It's been shocking, in poor form and poorly handled from a PR point of view.

Of course, the site will go on. But please don't ignore the hearts you've broken, the unfairness of surprising your faithful readers with things they not only did not expect, but truly don't care for and just spew out the corporate line! Acknowledge your readership's sense of betrayal.

I'd still want to see something that seemed heart-felt from the staff... : (
 
Mar 11, 2009
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frankrevi said:
To John, Daniel, Greg, and Stefan (and Future Publishing):

I'm an IT and web professional and run an ad-sponsored site, as well as a long time CN reader. I've spent some days with the new site and read all 72 (and counting) pages of this post before commenting. I appreciate all of your time, energy, expertise, and good will in redesigning the site and genuinely participating in this thread. I hope you will find my feedback useful.

I appreciate the need to redesign the site from the back end, I've been there (I am there...). I appreciate the need to be a viable commercial business, that's a good thing, and treating sponsors right is important.

These need to be clearly distinguished from the user interface design. This thread is really only about the user interface design and information architecture and how it relates to your users.

When posters say they want the old site back, what they want is the user interface from the old site. When you hear this 700+ times in three days, this is not just the typical user resistance to change that will blow over quickly once the dust settles.

The ratio of people who have a given opinion to those that take the effort to contact their political representative is typically taken to be 100:1; I'd guess your situation is similar.

What it means is that design considerations very important to your users have been lost.

In fact the posts on this thread, if you discard the outrage and bad manners, and normalize for resistance to change per se, show quite a coherent set of major substantive objections that you would do well to address strategically. Cribbing and editing from scottsmack (post #411 - worth rereading):

----------------
A few themes clearly stick out in the 72+ pages of criticism:
- Simplicity of content access and navigation
- Spoilers
- Live reports
- Simplicity of content access and navigation
- Depth of content (and again, easy access to that depth)
- Loading speed
- Mobile access
None of these are simply trivial design issues; they are critical to the utility of the site and access to its valuable and unique content. The redesign should have identified these as key objectives essential to retain and attract users. In the sit-forward medium of online, function needs to lead form.
----------------

I reiterate that none of these are trivial fixes, and would require wise design and good implementation to properly resolve. The problem is not going to go away with a few formatting changes and a little div rearrangement.

There are many good specific suggestions in this thread, and I have a number of them myself, that would help in the larger task. Personally I agree that the old UI would benefit from improvement, and there are a couple things in the new design I think are good.

But the larger issue is the point: The new user interface design
1) is missing many of the best attributes of the old
2) fails to meet best practices of any number of design experts and references
3) has lost the CyclingNews brand identity
4) has alienated a large part of your core user base

All of these problems could be solved with a followup user interface redesign project. Yeah, that's big pill to swallow, but here we are.

I'm guessing you four are in a tight spot (because you seem to care about CN and your users) between your users and good design on the one hand, and Future publishing on the other. I'm guessing Future Publishing cares nothing for the above issues because market segment aggregation and other factors are part of their plan for buying CyclingNews anyhow. I'm also guessing that the new UI was pretty much ported over from BikeRadar or someplace with no real high level design attention.

It would be great if you could convince Future Publishing that CyclingNews captures a unique and separate demographic from BikeRadar and their other properties, and is thus worth preserving for commercial reasons. And that a user interface redesign project is well worth the money. Please do that. I'm sure an analysis of web stats and other data would support that idea.

At least, I hope you may learn from this that users are not simply an amorphous mass of "consumers" that can be treated as a bubble on a powerpoint slide.

Or, maybe I'm learning that we are.

This is the best written post on what is wrong with the redesign with great constructive advice. Yet the editors have not responded to it:confused:
 
Jun 17, 2009
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I wish I could write like this

titan_90 said:
This is the best written post on what is wrong with the redesign with great constructive advice. Yet the editors have not responded to it:confused:

I really wish I could write like this, but I am a street guy that make it OK in computers back in 90's and checked out at 45 to move to USA to ride my bike. If the guys in the office are reading they should pick out the best ten posts and really discuss what is going on. I feel they are going to loose this one...or maybe not. We will go away and a new bunch of guys will come to town. It was GREAT while it lasted. All we wanted was the User Interface back so we could easily read the content, we got a kick in the face and it ain't going to change. Now we can't read the content and the tech guys (or guy...I think there was only one and a college student) that ported over Bike Radar can say Look it's great...you got your clicks...that's what you wanted? readers??? what are they? you wanted clicks....you wanted clicks...you wanted clicks. I wish I could write like those bright guys.
 
Mar 10, 2009
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titan_90 said:
This is the best written post on what is wrong with the redesign with great constructive advice. Yet the editors have not responded to it:confused:

Absolutely. I think that we have come to understand and appreciate that the site architecture was too cumbersome and needed updating.

We would like the new architecture's front end to mirror as closely as possible the old site with it's simple functionality and lack of spoilers. We do not want to read a site which appears so similar to BikeRadar. We would also like the media buy from advertisers to be a little less intrusive. Pretty simple really.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Lol, did CN just get a record number of visitors?

I suppose the CN crew don't care that we hate the site, but I suppose they love the publicity, even if it is negative.........I bet more "new" people have visited to see what the fuss is about...
 
lanceolot said:
Site is as slow as our old Ford Escort, and has the same kind of stutters and shakes.

:(

Mine too, slow as this morning. Even with the new IE8 that Stefan said would help the problem. It's still a nightmare... AND still only 10 names showing in the results page, I thought that problem was supposed to be fixed :mad:
 
Jun 15, 2009
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tonyfarnell said:
Sorry to be negative, but i'm tired of sites that put the emphasis on flashy appearance at the expense of functionality and efficiency. I can read, and I want to read.

Ding Ding Ding Ding!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3LkQrtCIFA4

Just replace the customer's request for web <> supply chain integration with "concise, easily navigable, timely information (oh yeah, and without spoilers!)" and you've got an exact description of the current CN situation.

PS That ad is 10 years old now.
 
Jun 17, 2009
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First 40 posts

I just re-read the first 40 post to remind myself what this was all about. In the beginning all was well, we were all full of hope and the staff were nice, now after 800 plus posts the staff are nasty and there is NO HOPE. It seems a year ago, was it Monday? I have had no news of cycling since then, another week and I will not care about cycling news...I will try and find other sites, but I feel my cycling news days are over...that with the switch to digital TV here (now I do not have TV any more, Cyclingnews and TV in one week) I do have BBC worldservice but I am beginning to loose the plot...what's happeneing in the Archers? it is 15 years since my last fix did Tony drink himself to death?
 
Mar 11, 2009
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scottsmack said:
CN-

For what its worth, I have personally managed site redesigns for major TV networks and media outlets in the U.S. I currently run a company that measures the effectiveness of online advertising and online media, including site UI development and inventory monetization, so I understand all the motives and complications your teams face. I also used to race bikes, participated in the Olympics and raced for 7-11 and Motorola, and CN is how I stay in touch with the sport. In other words, like all of the people who spoke up on your forums, I am a Cyclingnews loyalist and am concerned about its fate.

Your redesign was well-intentioned and has many features that even this group of die-hards will eventually get used to and come to appreciate. However, I have never seen a mutiny of this magnitude among a core user group, and although I know it is tempting to steadfastly stick to your guns and see this through, it would be a bad idea for you and your advertisers to not think very hard about what you're hearing, and the implications of inaction.

As one sage user said, "It is very hard to build brand loyalty, but easy to lose it." This is especially true in online media, where your competition is but a click away. Your core audience is your bread and butter. Anyone who cares about this kind of content is already here, or will eventually hear about it from a core user. There is no "new audience". Your strength has always been in (as another user put it) your reliable, knowledgable, and trustworthy reporting on the many many dimensions of this amazing sport. You are so far ahead of the competition that this audience is yours to lose. You cannot dumb it down for some fictitious broader audience and expect to retain the real, lasting audience that drives your business.

A few themes clearly stick out in the 40 pages of criticism:
- Spoilers
- Live reports
- Simplicity of content access and navigation
- Depth of content (and again, easy access to that depth)
- Loading speed
- Mobile access

None of these are simply trivial design issues; they are critical to the utility of the site and access to its valuable and unique content. The redesign should have identified these as key objectives essential to retain and attract users. In the sit-forward medium of online, function needs to lead form.

Google is an amazing company for many reasons, but the one that is relevant to this situation is this: they embark on plenty of experiments, some requiring huge investments of capital and talent. But when they realize they have made a mistake, they do not hesitate to swallow their pride and move quickly to throw the thing in reverse and get back on track. CN can recapture equity and earn respect by responding to the overwhelming criticism and reverting to the "old site" until the criticism can be digested and, as appropriate, integrated into the new design. It's probably unthinkable for you, just 3 days into the new launch, but you have already started shedding users. You have already damaged brand loyalty by the way things have been handled on the forums. This act would be an act of deference to your audience while you sort out the next steps forward. (On the issue of redesign: There is always a pull for "onward and upward". But consider two of the biggest winners in the online space: Google and Craigslist. Pure utility and simplicity - which fits the medium. To me, CN used to be a Craigslist for cycling. Did you know they earn $120 million dollars with a 30 person staff? Can you imagine how many people would love to "redesign" CL? New is not necessarily better).

You are lucky to have an audience that speaks so loudly, so quickly. Usually users just abandon without a peep. That your audience would speak so loudly says a lot about the value of your content among the plethora of cycling information sites. Harley Davidson is a brand with such strong loyalty that people will get tattoos of the brand. In online media, the ultimate indicator of brand strength is home page designation and visits per day -- both of which you enjoy. Somehow you have managed to stand out and apart from the rest, so great care should be taken not to squander that market position.

If the redesign is driven by revenue goals, then that is important. But do not forget that what attracts advertisers is target audiences and engagement. Retaining those is the prime directive. There are many monetization strategies that can improve revenue and CPM without undermining your audience, which IS your product. One more time: your product is not your cycling content! It is your audience. That's what you sell, isn't it?

Please listen carefully to your audience. Do not let the momentum of the redesign effort and the personal and financial investments that have been made overwhelm the undeniable response from your user community. These cricitisms are not simple design issues; they are critical to your survival.

Scott McKinley
CEO, Factor TG
scottsmack@gmail.com

Post 411 referred in frankrevi's post.
 
Jun 20, 2009
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Joining the chorus

I feel like I've lost an old friend. I joined this forum since there does not appear to be any other avenue for providing feedback on the new design. I loved your old design and followed it daily for years. Now I can hardly stand to look at it! Did you give this a test run before rolling it out?

By the way, one of the reasons I read this page over Velo News is because you went more than 10 deep in the results. Not so anymore.

Very dissapointed.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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IE6 Support

stefan said:
Pretty much :) Many thanks.

Our support for Internet Explorer 6 is likely the culprit - IE6 is no longer supported by Microsoft (current version is 8.X), and although we've done what we can to make the site usable in IE6, support for it is 'best effort only'. I obviously have no business telling you which browser to use, but if you at all get a chance to upgrade your Internet Explorer, you will likely see benefits, not just from us, but pretty much all over the web. IE 8 is a free download away:

http://www.microsoft.com/windows/internet-explorer/default.aspx

or Firefox3 if you're that way inclined:

http://www.mozilla.com

If you choose to upgrade from IE6 to pretty much anything else, you will make a lot of web developers happy, not just at Cyclingnews, but everywhere.

You are simply incorrect in stating that IE6 is no longer supported by MS:

http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean24 "The following operating systems have Internet Explorer 6 installed and will follow the lifecycle of the operating system: Windows XP Service Pack 2"

http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifesupsps#Windows "Windows XP Service Pack 2 | 13-Jul-2010"

I don't argue with you for a minute that IE6 is ancient junk, and I can't remember how many years it's been since I used it. But it IS still supported by its vendor (for another year+) and we need you to post correct statements. If CN wants to support only certain browsers/versions, that's certainly CN's prerogative, but the homepage needs to clearly state which browsers/versions have been tested and are supported. And in the forums, CN staff need to make factually correct posts since credibilty is crucial.
 
May 5, 2009
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New site horrible, forced me to VeloNews

The confusion and posting style has forced me to look and use VeloNews from here forward. I do not like to be forced to read results on the home page. I go to the site for other reasons, and do not always want to see a days results before watching it on tv. Results for races should not be posted in big letters on your homepage. Goodbye, hope you guys change it back in the future.:eek:
 
Jun 17, 2009
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Taking on the good doctor?

powerste said:
You are simply incorrect in stating that IE6 is no longer supported by MS:

http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifean24 "The following operating systems have Internet Explorer 6 installed and will follow the lifecycle of the operating system: Windows XP Service Pack 2"

http://support.microsoft.com/gp/lifesupsps#Windows "Windows XP Service Pack 2 | 13-Jul-2010"

I don't argue with you for a minute that IE6 is ancient junk, and I can't remember how many years it's been since I used it. But it IS still supported by its vendor (for another year+) and we need you to post correct statements. If CN wants to support only certain browsers/versions, that's certainly CN's prerogative, but the homepage needs to clearly state which browsers/versions have been tested and are supported. And in the forums, CN staff need to make factually correct posts since credibilty is crucial.

I am not quite sure how the good doctor is going to take this, he a real computer buff. When he was young he built a computer out of z80 chip set or S100 bus and loaded cpm and ran wordstar...might have even had an Apple IIe.

I still use IE6 I see no need to change. I had hoped designers understand not everyone has the newest slowest computer on the market because they are in hopes Word might be able to print 100 pages will typing text.
 
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pedrospeeps said:
I am not quite sure how the good doctor is going to take this, he a real computer buff. When he was young he built a computer out of z80 chip set or S100 bus and loaded cpm and ran wordstar...might have even had an Apple IIe.

I still use IE6 I see no need to change. I had hoped designers understand not everyone has the newest slowest computer on the market because they are in hopes Word might be able to print 100 pages will typing text.

oy.. :p i used to use wordstar..

but then i also sat there for hours typing programs into the zx81's touch sensitve keyboard, saved them to tape 12 times just in case and then found they didnt work anyway.. not quiete as bad as the cat nudging the rampack and crashing the comp just as youd finished..

do you know in 1981, 1 gb of memory for the zx81 would have cost 3 million quid and filled a phone box.. :eek:

hows that for off topic..

for your own security though, upgrade from ie6 to opera or firefox.. :/
 
Jun 15, 2009
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dimspace said:
for your own security though, upgrade from ie6 to opera or firefox.. :/

Although my previous post was from IE7 on the kids' computer (someone left her browser window open to webkinz.com :eek:), anything from my own or work PC would be from FF3 since no version of IE runs on linux :D
 
Jun 20, 2009
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My biggest problem with the redesign is that it is harder to find what I'm looking for. This may partly be due to the fact that I'm not used to it, but I do think there is some validity in this.

I also don't like that the stage winners are listed right on the homepage. Cyclingnews is my homepage, and I don't like knowing the winners if I'm going to watch races later in the day. Its hard not to look down when I'm opening my browser and see the result!

Finally, the race reports are harder to read. They appear less organized than they used to be.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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seeya, babe

Man, this is sad. . . the old cyclingnews.com site has been THE homepage on my computer for about six years, but this redesign sucks so bad that I've gotta dump it and look for something new. It's like having the perfect girlfriend-- and then coming home some night to find that she's had plastic surgery and made herself really ugly. WTF??!!!

Anyway, I loved the way you used to give viewers choices about finding out who won the day's stage. I loved the way you showed all the results, right down to the last rider in. I loved the bottomless archives. I loved being able to see profiles of all the stages. I loved not having everything all airbrushed and plastic and acting like it already knew what I wanted. I loved the sheer volume of raw data, and the choices I had for accessing it.

My guess is that the guys who created the perfect cycling website must have finally decided to cash in and sold out to someone who has no clue about what made the old site great. I can only hope that they're enjoying their money-- and that the marketing genius behind this new monstrosity loses his job very quickly. Bottom line-- thanks for six great years as my home page. Seeya, babe.
 
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