ok.. i think that was a little harsh.. critisism is one thing, slight humour is another, personal comments is getting a bit much..
we are bigger than that guys..
we are bigger than that guys..
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Just as an experiment I tried to get the pages up on my phone, I dont mind checking in while I am in the office or whatever and guess what, it doesnt load because of all the rubbish, so your business just cost itself a zillion web hits a day from people who regularly do that and just have normal internet capable phones.
dimspace said:
Gee maybe thats the problem over there in the mother country, everyone was too polite and didnt want to give the people responsible for this rubbish the unvarnished truth because it might hurt someones feelings..... glad I live in Australia, we may be uncouth heathens but at least we are not scared of a bit of honest feedback, besides I dont think thats harsh at all, nothing more than your average bit of banter in a bike race, have you ever done one of those?
I think that many users come here for not only news but also as a reference. many times I come to the site just to look up a map or check out a stage. often have 2 or 3 tabs of your site. You are not only read for news but are used as almanac. The home page should reflect this and be more of an index of what is inside. and no spoiler head lines.
I'm getting used to the new look. Other than the home page and race&results page you are doing some nice changes.
I'm getting used to the new look. Other than the home page and race&results page you are doing some nice changes.
If I squint I can just about see the old site
Having grown up used to Santa with a red coat, white beard and black buckle I was quite suprised one christmas when he appeared wearing neon purple pants. It's still the same site, although quite a shock to the system, it just needs some more polishing.
I don't like the spoiler headlines but understand your attempt to advertise what happened to get more interest, will I be able to subscribe to an RSS feed without the result headlines?
I don't understand the carousel thing, 10 static headlines in 2 coloumns would've been fine ? It's a touch too attention grabbing.
I hope the whitespace (middle column in the news items) dissappears with some wrapping only getting 7 words per line makes my eyes dizzy when skimming the reports.
Overall it does show potential, I hope it keeps improving in coming days and are looking forward to the creamy goodness of individual news item updates via RSS
Having grown up used to Santa with a red coat, white beard and black buckle I was quite suprised one christmas when he appeared wearing neon purple pants. It's still the same site, although quite a shock to the system, it just needs some more polishing.
I don't like the spoiler headlines but understand your attempt to advertise what happened to get more interest, will I be able to subscribe to an RSS feed without the result headlines?
I don't understand the carousel thing, 10 static headlines in 2 coloumns would've been fine ? It's a touch too attention grabbing.
I hope the whitespace (middle column in the news items) dissappears with some wrapping only getting 7 words per line makes my eyes dizzy when skimming the reports.
Overall it does show potential, I hope it keeps improving in coming days and are looking forward to the creamy goodness of individual news item updates via RSS
Rentakill said:
I'm obviously aware of the meaning of the term, I was just curious as to how anything I'd said could have been taken as "FP's IT-guys will win"?
All I've done is to try to answer some of the questions and queries you, the readers had, honestly and as straight-forwadly as I can. Shouting and abuse towards us, doing our jobs, providing a service to you, for free, feels unwarranted.
stefan said:
Thats an interesting comment Stefan.
OK I will refrain from the blunt and honest comments as they are clearly upsetting you, and obviously not garnering the hoped for response, which is that you as the responsible person for this stuff, as is evidenced by the 36 pages and growing exponentially of negative feedback is clearly ignorning the elephant in the room that the new site is rubbish and you need to do something drastic to fix it.
...... but seriously - for free? Who are you trying to kid? So let me get this straight. You are sitting there as an unpaid employee of cycling news? Me, as a part of your readership, who reads the pages, and sees what the pro bike riders use, likes it, follows the links and buys stuff after following the links on your site that your advertisers pay dearly for as you sell them advertising based upon your web site hits is doing you a favour and you are doing this for free out of the goodness of your heart?
Mate you need an education in commerce or alternately you are playing your readership for uneducated fools by telling them you are providing them a free service. Which one is it? You are paid as a direct result of people like me reading the site, who follow professional cycling, participate in the sport and buy stuff.
If your 'free' service disappears, loses credibility or another site gains popularity which your marketing and business managers fervently protect, then your site makes less money, you need less employees and people who are responsible for this lose their jobs. How comfortable is that seat you are sitting in?
To Stefan, Greg, Susan, Daniel and the staff of Cyclingnews.com and Future Publishing Ltd.
I have, until now, refrained from registering and posting in order to thoroughly browse the new site and to familiarize myself with the changes as much as possible. I have read through the 35 or so pages of this thread consisting of comments from your user base and your responses to them. I would like to offer my feedback in the hope you find it constructive.
My professional background includes corporate project management working for a very large company. I have no particular expertise in any programming, hardware or technology standards and practices. I am the proverbial clueless "corporate guy" who sits in the meetings with the developers, designers, and IT people who do the actual work, and makes unreasonable and outlandish demands in an attempt to communicate "management's vision" of the project at hand. I have seen many cases in which good intentions, extensive planning and strong belief in methodology and technical aptitude have been derailed by inflexibility and refusal to accept criticism. It happens routinely at the highest levels of the largest companies. No one wants to see their hard work and their commitment of time and resources rejected. Unfortunately, from your responses on this thread I must conclude that you appear to be falling into this defensive, fortress-like scenario.
Much of the criticism of your redesign is abrasive in nature and takes the form of an ultimatum, i.e. "change it back or I'm gone." I believe I understand the reasons why this type of commentary would be unhelpful to you. Stefan, your earlier comment regarding the "old" site being essentially a huge HTML stack, and your need to introduce more sophisticated content management seems valid to me in my limited knowledge. However, this is at heart an internal matter and must be separated from the external concerns of user perception, it should not override the primary goal of user satisfaction and retention.
I must add that your point regarding poor usability of the old site by first-time or casual cycling fans, and your desire to improve the experience for them, does not ring true to me. It has certainly not been my experience. In any case, I see no reason why this goal needs to or should compromise the usability of more seasoned, "hardcore" users. It's not an either/or.
One more piece of advice that I would like to offer is to be very cautious and circumspect in how you interpret and implement the results of any "professionally conducted usability reviews", focus groups, outsourced consulting, etc. I know such things are expensive and are highly regarded in certain business environments. I would humbly suggest that the comments in this thread, particularly the ones that are being widely repeated i.e. spoilers, flash, lack of density, poor navigation, are ultimately of much more value to you than any of those other methods can ever be.
Thank you for the opportunity to express my viewpoints, and good luck.
I have, until now, refrained from registering and posting in order to thoroughly browse the new site and to familiarize myself with the changes as much as possible. I have read through the 35 or so pages of this thread consisting of comments from your user base and your responses to them. I would like to offer my feedback in the hope you find it constructive.
My professional background includes corporate project management working for a very large company. I have no particular expertise in any programming, hardware or technology standards and practices. I am the proverbial clueless "corporate guy" who sits in the meetings with the developers, designers, and IT people who do the actual work, and makes unreasonable and outlandish demands in an attempt to communicate "management's vision" of the project at hand. I have seen many cases in which good intentions, extensive planning and strong belief in methodology and technical aptitude have been derailed by inflexibility and refusal to accept criticism. It happens routinely at the highest levels of the largest companies. No one wants to see their hard work and their commitment of time and resources rejected. Unfortunately, from your responses on this thread I must conclude that you appear to be falling into this defensive, fortress-like scenario.
Much of the criticism of your redesign is abrasive in nature and takes the form of an ultimatum, i.e. "change it back or I'm gone." I believe I understand the reasons why this type of commentary would be unhelpful to you. Stefan, your earlier comment regarding the "old" site being essentially a huge HTML stack, and your need to introduce more sophisticated content management seems valid to me in my limited knowledge. However, this is at heart an internal matter and must be separated from the external concerns of user perception, it should not override the primary goal of user satisfaction and retention.
I must add that your point regarding poor usability of the old site by first-time or casual cycling fans, and your desire to improve the experience for them, does not ring true to me. It has certainly not been my experience. In any case, I see no reason why this goal needs to or should compromise the usability of more seasoned, "hardcore" users. It's not an either/or.
One more piece of advice that I would like to offer is to be very cautious and circumspect in how you interpret and implement the results of any "professionally conducted usability reviews", focus groups, outsourced consulting, etc. I know such things are expensive and are highly regarded in certain business environments. I would humbly suggest that the comments in this thread, particularly the ones that are being widely repeated i.e. spoilers, flash, lack of density, poor navigation, are ultimately of much more value to you than any of those other methods can ever be.
Thank you for the opportunity to express my viewpoints, and good luck.
a bit blatant
I generally dislike people who whinge about free websites, but because I have been reading cyclingnews since about the second year and its probably the first site I read each morning, I'm a bit more motivated to say something and that this is such a blatant attempt to increase page impressions that it takes away all the enjoyment. the previous format of the news or the full results for each race was great; all the information was there and you could scroll past stuff you didnt want to read. Giving you my google analytics, I reckoned I looked at 5 pages each visit, visited once or twice a day and spent an average of 7 minutes a visit with use of clickthroughs probably about 3 times a week. The new attempt to make me reload every page makes this a real pain in the ****. To the extent that I am already reducing the time I spend on the site and to be honest I dont think I am giving you guys more page impressions. Cyclingnews was the best most readable cycling news website, and the content may remain the same, but I will increasingly go elsewhere
I generally dislike people who whinge about free websites, but because I have been reading cyclingnews since about the second year and its probably the first site I read each morning, I'm a bit more motivated to say something and that this is such a blatant attempt to increase page impressions that it takes away all the enjoyment. the previous format of the news or the full results for each race was great; all the information was there and you could scroll past stuff you didnt want to read. Giving you my google analytics, I reckoned I looked at 5 pages each visit, visited once or twice a day and spent an average of 7 minutes a visit with use of clickthroughs probably about 3 times a week. The new attempt to make me reload every page makes this a real pain in the ****. To the extent that I am already reducing the time I spend on the site and to be honest I dont think I am giving you guys more page impressions. Cyclingnews was the best most readable cycling news website, and the content may remain the same, but I will increasingly go elsewhere
dimspace said:this is NOT as it was before this is a ridiculous font, even more stupid line space but more imporantly 50% YES FIFTY PERCENT WHITE SPACE!! All because of ads and the stupid archive box that could have gone horizontally...
so stefan.. you think that looks good, user freindly and readable? or not readable, erm, easy to read
it actually reminds me of when you are at school and the teacher says write three pages and you can be bothered so you just right really really big and put in lots of gaps..
probably the most read page on the site each day.. and a mess..
bump..
why isnt there whistling smiley on here to whistle while you await a response..please stefan.. just say, "yes dim.. it looks s****" and i can go to bed happy..
Columbus said:
Indeed Columbus, the rankings in the result lists are not visible anymore. From now on you have to count the positions yourself. It is one of the new features of this new design: a more active role for the reader!
Whoah. This is turning nasty. When does the mob plan on bringing out the torches and pitch forks?
dimspace said:bump..
please stefan.. just say, "yes dim.. it looks s****" and i can go to bed happy..
I'm just trying to cut through your understandable anger that we've changed your favourite site and actually get something constructive...
Look at the old news edition and the new news edition..
http://autobus.cyclingnews.com/news.php?id=news/2009/jun09/jun15news
http://www.cyclingnews.com/editions/latest-edition-cycling-news-tuesday-june-16-2009
You essentially want content column to span the site, or just want more content crammed in the right hand column - more links - etc?
Saying it looks "s****" isn't going to help us improve the site for you. Telling us what you liked and why you liked it, that would be really helpful.
agaler said:
I like the older version better. With the links taking up a small amount of the space on the right and the actual news taking up the rest of the page width. The new version the text is jammed into the right side doubled spaced with the rest of the page empty white space and ad banners that are to wide. If you remove the second column Edition Archive thing and allowed the text to be single spaced and allowed it to go all the way to the ads on the right it would be much better, just add the Edition Archive thing to the bottom of the page with Previous and Next news links.
Open Letter to Stefan,
1. Nobody is impressed with your PhD, so drop it.
2. Nobody is impressed with with your vast array of technology, so drop it.
3. Nobody is impressed with your new website, so drop it.
Its ok to say "I made a mistake."
Its not ok to keep denying it as you seem to be doing.
We are your core, your power users, your meat and potatos, the reason you got such a nice budget for this re-design.
To stand firm and defensive isn't the way a business person would approach this. Its actually kind of child like.
Its up to you guys, stand firm and remember us down the road when your Tour numbers crater this year. Or bring back what we loved about the old site and we will return, everyday, often numerous times during the day and we can forget this little experiment ever happened.
I'll be back in a week or so to see if this has gotten fixed.
I think this is the first time in 7 years I've changed my homepage.
Bob
1. Nobody is impressed with your PhD, so drop it.
2. Nobody is impressed with with your vast array of technology, so drop it.
3. Nobody is impressed with your new website, so drop it.
Its ok to say "I made a mistake."
Its not ok to keep denying it as you seem to be doing.
We are your core, your power users, your meat and potatos, the reason you got such a nice budget for this re-design.
To stand firm and defensive isn't the way a business person would approach this. Its actually kind of child like.
Its up to you guys, stand firm and remember us down the road when your Tour numbers crater this year. Or bring back what we loved about the old site and we will return, everyday, often numerous times during the day and we can forget this little experiment ever happened.
I'll be back in a week or so to see if this has gotten fixed.
I think this is the first time in 7 years I've changed my homepage.
Bob
agaler said:
ok.. i have actually been very thorough previously about what is wrong with this page, but for your benefit i will go through it again... i wasnt saying it was rubbish, although i think it is, it was merely a consise and effective way for someone from CN to communicate their agreement..
Thank you for providing two links.. it demonstrates my point superbly..
lets look at them side by side..
(am i imagining it or does advertising and white space outweigh content on the right hand picture.. i need to grab a ruler)
first lets look at the basics... Just how much text appears on the news page of the old news page, compared with the new.. its fairly obvious.. )thats ignoring the fact the actual text starts about an inch lower down because of the bloated new menu system.. again does that really need to be that big)
flaws with the new page...
firstly, why on earth is the edition archives box where it is.. it removes an entire 3rd of the page by it being there.. is a box of archives really more important than using the rest of the page wisely and effectively, or would it be better placed up to the top.. i dont even think thats a valid question because only a complete lunatic would put it where it is now.. it just doesnt follow any logic for it to be there..
my second comment was going to be about the article headers ,but someone seems to have tidied up the thrice repaeated date, time, author since yesterday...
font size and line spacing.. simply.. WHY.. if people are partially sighted they can zoom in, you may think its easier to read, but actually the eyes are confused by white space and find it harder to read.. double line spacing is only to be used for typing essays where the examiner wants to put comments in between the lines.. apart from that dont use it
im not even going to ask why [next edition] and [previous edition] links are in that order.. that is easily remedied and i assume will be very shortly..
by the time you get to the bottom half of the page you are looking at half a column of weirdly spaced text, and half a page of blank white space..
probably the most read page on the site and it looks awful, and i cant actually read it, it doesnt interest me.. it looks like it lacks depth, glosses over, its not good to look at..
as for the advertising, it is actually fact that using a few well placed, and relevant advertising boxes on a page is more effective than just walloping a ruddy great behemoth of them that people will avoid..
so do you agree it looks *****
We're writing but no one is listening, they're continuing with the site no matter how bad it is and how dysfunctional. They need more money so they chose the route of more click counts, so to disable the click count they'd have to re-construct their ad contracts.
The solution for us readers is to not click, don't visit the main site and don't click on anything. That will reduce the click count and reduce the revenue and then maybe and just maybe will they listen.
Continuing to test the site by us will only give them a higher click count and defeat our purpose or goal.
The solution for us readers is to not click, don't visit the main site and don't click on anything. That will reduce the click count and reduce the revenue and then maybe and just maybe will they listen.
Continuing to test the site by us will only give them a higher click count and defeat our purpose or goal.
agaler said:
can we have a banging head against wall smiley please...
weve been suggesting this since yesterday good god.. I would still like to know who put the archive box there to start with.. perhaps you could offer them as a daily prize during the tour.. id like them to mow my lawn, as long as they can be trusted not to mow my strawberries by mistake..
dimspace said:
You have strawberries in your garden? You luck devil.
Here you go...
To everyone - rest assured the team are listening and your comments and suggestions will be taken on board. Please try and keep the comments constructive, tell us why you liked stuff in the old site and how you would improve the new site rather than singling out individuals who are only trying to help. That will just stop them from reading and responding to your comments.
Wow!!!!!!!!!
If I screwed up this bad, I would get fired! As a long time reader of CN, I have to tell you how dissappointed I am. I have read CN at least twice a day for quite a while. Again, I read cyclingnews.com not bikeradar.com!!!! I have read other news sites, but nothing compares to CN. I have watched the live commentary for the Tour de France and just about every other race for that matter, for many years. I feel like I just lost a good friend........ but life goes on. This was a mecca for cycling purists, now it is for disco loving, weight weenies. I guess I'll break down and get cable for now. That's all I have to say about that.
Scuba
If I screwed up this bad, I would get fired! As a long time reader of CN, I have to tell you how dissappointed I am. I have read CN at least twice a day for quite a while. Again, I read cyclingnews.com not bikeradar.com!!!! I have read other news sites, but nothing compares to CN. I have watched the live commentary for the Tour de France and just about every other race for that matter, for many years. I feel like I just lost a good friend........ but life goes on. This was a mecca for cycling purists, now it is for disco loving, weight weenies. I guess I'll break down and get cable for now. That's all I have to say about that.
Scuba
Sad
Dear Cyclingnews,
Please, please bring back the text version of the race results. The only reason I come here is to read the race reports, which includes checking out the thumbnails of the cool race pics and to see the comprehensive results in text format. The results are difficult to consult now, and the overall design is off-putting. As far as the homepage goes, I guess the latest news box at the top is kind of cool, but it seems rather unnecessary. I realize this site change is a result of your interpretation of the questionnaires we all filled out a year ago, but frankly, I thought that that change had been made last summer, when the site underwent a minor rearrangement.
Sorry to say it, but I guess it'll have to be velonews for me from now on.
Please change it back!
Dear Cyclingnews,
Please, please bring back the text version of the race results. The only reason I come here is to read the race reports, which includes checking out the thumbnails of the cool race pics and to see the comprehensive results in text format. The results are difficult to consult now, and the overall design is off-putting. As far as the homepage goes, I guess the latest news box at the top is kind of cool, but it seems rather unnecessary. I realize this site change is a result of your interpretation of the questionnaires we all filled out a year ago, but frankly, I thought that that change had been made last summer, when the site underwent a minor rearrangement.
Sorry to say it, but I guess it'll have to be velonews for me from now on.
Please change it back!
1. The new site seems un-nerving to look at; very cluttered and too much flashing of worthless images.
2. I feel that the sections are placed illogically (like the latest photos and features being far down on the page)- I seem to be looking for it where it never exists. Maybe I am the one that is illogical but the last site seemed to work for me.
3. I liked the daily digest of all that was going on located in one spot rather than clicking on a bunch of different headlines. I could skim things I wasn't interested in before. If I became interested during the skimming, I would read it. Now, I will probably go to a more simple website for my cycling news.
4. I don't like all the photos flashing around- it makes me queezy trying to get any information. I liked the old site where you could view all the thumbnail images and then maybe look at a few that you selected.
5. I really liked the simple feel of the old design and that it was unique to cyclingnews.com The fact that this design is a more intense COPY of bikeradar.com makes cyclingnews.com seem like they lack originality and the ability to produce other things unique to the cycling world; I am concerned with people that copy others for the sake of using something that "works". I don't think this format "works" for cyclingnews.com or the bigger message you are trying to send your audience. Now you just demoted your IMAGE to that of a lesser website since the original format was used by bikeradar.com
6. The website is now narrower. This makes the FEATURES and LATEST PHOTOS approx 3 scrolls away. The first two times I used the new website, I thought these features were gone. Again, keeping it simple (like it was before) made the old site easier to use.
2. I feel that the sections are placed illogically (like the latest photos and features being far down on the page)- I seem to be looking for it where it never exists. Maybe I am the one that is illogical but the last site seemed to work for me.
3. I liked the daily digest of all that was going on located in one spot rather than clicking on a bunch of different headlines. I could skim things I wasn't interested in before. If I became interested during the skimming, I would read it. Now, I will probably go to a more simple website for my cycling news.
4. I don't like all the photos flashing around- it makes me queezy trying to get any information. I liked the old site where you could view all the thumbnail images and then maybe look at a few that you selected.
5. I really liked the simple feel of the old design and that it was unique to cyclingnews.com The fact that this design is a more intense COPY of bikeradar.com makes cyclingnews.com seem like they lack originality and the ability to produce other things unique to the cycling world; I am concerned with people that copy others for the sake of using something that "works". I don't think this format "works" for cyclingnews.com or the bigger message you are trying to send your audience. Now you just demoted your IMAGE to that of a lesser website since the original format was used by bikeradar.com
6. The website is now narrower. This makes the FEATURES and LATEST PHOTOS approx 3 scrolls away. The first two times I used the new website, I thought these features were gone. Again, keeping it simple (like it was before) made the old site easier to use.
I just joined the forums in order to register my complaints about the new site - pretty much echoing what I've read skimming this thread. As well, I tried for ten minutes to find an email address to which to send my complaints, finally found one - cyclingnews@futurenet.co.uk - wrote an impassioned email, and it's bounced back to me as undeliverable.
The new site is so bad that we can't even email to complain, and have to join the forum?!?
If nothing else, please get rid of the underlined links before we all go blind, and NO SPOILERS!!!1!
I've been reading, linking to, emailing articles from, and buying things from advertisers of cyclingnews for years, but no longer. The spoilers have ruined the whole site.
The new site is so bad that we can't even email to complain, and have to join the forum?!?
If nothing else, please get rid of the underlined links before we all go blind, and NO SPOILERS!!!1!
I've been reading, linking to, emailing articles from, and buying things from advertisers of cyclingnews for years, but no longer. The spoilers have ruined the whole site.
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