New study shows leg flexion less efficient than extension.

[JamesCun]

Re: New study shows leg flexion less efficient than extensio

...
This data is highly relevant to the discussion of pedaling technique and motor skill acquisition because it shows that all the cyclists we have tested (from recreational to elite) CAN pull up enough to produce positive pedal power during flexion but they CHOOSE not too do so when pedaling at endurance level powers. Repeat, everyone already knows how to pull up with power. They don't need split cranks or drills to learn how. Why do they choose not to pull up more? I don't know for sure but one explanation would be because their perceptual feedback tells them its less efficient to do so as all studies have shown.
PhitBoy

--------------------------
That would imply that 'pulling-up' when pedaling at more than endurance power is a typical 'technique'.

If cyclists trained with a technique of pulling-up (or complete unweighting) when at endurance power, wouldn't their efficiency using that technique increase? An important goal for competitive cyclists is to develop the technique that gives them the best blend of power and endurance for their chosen situations and events.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

What do you mean by 'best blend of power and endurance'?

 

[CoachFergie]

Re:

Another 'thought' occured to me regarding the types of training that cyclists use -
Many (most?) of the typical training regimens are similar to actual 'on the road situations' that are encountered in competition, such as:intervals of various intensity and duration, hills, sprints, TT, etc.

Most intensive training of this sort is not usually considered to be pleasant or enjoyable, but we recognize that even though it is 'hard to do', that it will be of benefit because we have witnessed how lack of ablility in those areas has resulted in less performance.

Regarding strong 'pulling-up' - the 'value' of this ability is less obvious because most people don't use it except in extreme situations, and even then don't recognize it as something that might be improved by specific training.
And they probably know from experience that trying to train themself to do it is difficult and unpleasant.
So why bother unless they are convinced that it would be valuable?

This might be similar to the recent increase in 'core' strength training that many cyclists (and other athletes) are doing.
In prior years there was little interest in core training, but now it is thought to be useful and has become somewhat 'mainstream'.

Starting to ramble there Jay. Just waaaay to much speculation for someone who I take it isn't a coach or a sport scientist.

 

[FrankDay]

Re: Re:

Another 'thought' occured to me regarding the types of training that cyclists use -
Many (most?) of the typical training regimens are similar to actual 'on the road situations' that are encountered in competition, such as:intervals of various intensity and duration, hills, sprints, TT, etc.

Most intensive training of this sort is not usually considered to be pleasant or enjoyable, but we recognize that even though it is 'hard to do', that it will be of benefit because we have witnessed how lack of ablility in those areas has resulted in less performance.

Regarding strong 'pulling-up' - the 'value' of this ability is less obvious because most people don't use it except in extreme situations, and even then don't recognize it as something that might be improved by specific training.
And they probably know from experience that trying to train themself to do it is difficult and unpleasant.
So why bother unless they are convinced that it would be valuable?

This might be similar to the recent increase in 'core' strength training that many cyclists (and other athletes) are doing.
In prior years there was little interest in core training, but now it is thought to be useful and has become somewhat 'mainstream'.

Starting to ramble there Jay. Just waaaay to much speculation for someone who I take it isn't a coach or a sport scientist.

Yes, way to much speculation there for someone not trained to speculate nor with the proper authority to speculate. LOL

Here is another way to think about unweighting. Coast alone on your bike out of the saddle, one foot at 3 and one foot a 9 o'clock. You are coasting so the pedals are not turning so 50% of your weight has to be on the 3 o'clock pedal and 50% on the 9 o'clock pedal. The pedal forces are equal and opposite. Now, what do you have to do if you want to start pedaling? There is only one way, you have to have an unbalanced force with more force on the forward pedal than the backwards pedal. The only way to do this is to unweight the back pedal. We really cannot pedal without unweighting and the amount of downward force on the forward pedal is solely determined by the amount of unweighting since the saddle is supporting zero body weight. The situation is similar for seated riding also. The only question is how much unweighting do we do (that seems to be variable based upon how hard we are going) and how much is optimal (still and open question).

 

[JamesCun]

Re: Re:

Another 'thought' occured to me regarding the types of training that cyclists use -
Many (most?) of the typical training regimens are similar to actual 'on the road situations' that are encountered in competition, such as:intervals of various intensity and duration, hills, sprints, TT, etc.

Most intensive training of this sort is not usually considered to be pleasant or enjoyable, but we recognize that even though it is 'hard to do', that it will be of benefit because we have witnessed how lack of ablility in those areas has resulted in less performance.

Regarding strong 'pulling-up' - the 'value' of this ability is less obvious because most people don't use it except in extreme situations, and even then don't recognize it as something that might be improved by specific training.
And they probably know from experience that trying to train themself to do it is difficult and unpleasant.
So why bother unless they are convinced that it would be valuable?

This might be similar to the recent increase in 'core' strength training that many cyclists (and other athletes) are doing.
In prior years there was little interest in core training, but now it is thought to be useful and has become somewhat 'mainstream'.

Starting to ramble there Jay. Just waaaay to much speculation for someone who I take it isn't a coach or a sport scientist.

Yes, way to much speculation there for someone not trained to speculate nor with the proper authority to speculate. LOL

Here is another way to think about unweighting. Coast alone on your bike out of the saddle, one foot at 3 and one foot a 9 o'clock. You are coasting so the pedals are not turning so 50% of your weight has to be on the 3 o'clock pedal and 50% on the 9 o'clock pedal. Now, what do you have to do if you want to start pedaling. there is only one way, you have to have an unbalanced force with more force on the forward pedal than the backwards pedal. The only way to do this is to unweight the back pedal. We really cannot pedal without unweighting. The only question is how much unweighting do (that seems to be variable based upon how hard we are going) we do and how much is optimal (still and open question).

Frank, why are we talking about standing on the pedals? If you are seated, you don't need to unweight the back pedal, you just need to have more force on the forward pedal.

You and jay are just spinning in circles now (haha). Making assumptions on assumptions and saying it must be so. All these things you advocate are very easy to determine with testing. Go and do the testing and prove it. There is no reason to think that using weaker muscles to pull up is more efficient than continuing to use the stronger muscles to push harder.

 

[FrankDay]

Re:

I'm more than happy to be shown there is a better way, just need some real evidence...

wait, wait, you are a coach. According to your own rules you are allowed to speculate. Yet, you refuse to. Who is supposed to do the speculation if Jay isn't allowed to and you refuse to?

 

[FrankDay]

Re: Re:

Another 'thought' occured to me regarding the types of training that cyclists use -
Many (most?) of the typical training regimens are similar to actual 'on the road situations' that are encountered in competition, such as:intervals of various intensity and duration, hills, sprints, TT, etc.

Most intensive training of this sort is not usually considered to be pleasant or enjoyable, but we recognize that even though it is 'hard to do', that it will be of benefit because we have witnessed how lack of ablility in those areas has resulted in less performance.

Regarding strong 'pulling-up' - the 'value' of this ability is less obvious because most people don't use it except in extreme situations, and even then don't recognize it as something that might be improved by specific training.
And they probably know from experience that trying to train themself to do it is difficult and unpleasant.
So why bother unless they are convinced that it would be valuable?

This might be similar to the recent increase in 'core' strength training that many cyclists (and other athletes) are doing.
In prior years there was little interest in core training, but now it is thought to be useful and has become somewhat 'mainstream'.

Starting to ramble there Jay. Just waaaay to much speculation for someone who I take it isn't a coach or a sport scientist.

Yes, way to much speculation there for someone not trained to speculate nor with the proper authority to speculate. LOL

Here is another way to think about unweighting. Coast alone on your bike out of the saddle, one foot at 3 and one foot a 9 o'clock. You are coasting so the pedals are not turning so 50% of your weight has to be on the 3 o'clock pedal and 50% on the 9 o'clock pedal. Now, what do you have to do if you want to start pedaling. there is only one way, you have to have an unbalanced force with more force on the forward pedal than the backwards pedal. The only way to do this is to unweight the back pedal. We really cannot pedal without unweighting. The only question is how much unweighting do (that seems to be variable based upon how hard we are going) we do and how much is optimal (still and open question).

Frank, why are we talking about standing on the pedals? If you are seated, you don't need to unweight the back pedal, you just need to have more force on the forward pedal.

One may not NEED TO unweight but the fact remains, we all do. That was the take away of PHITBOY's post, or do you not read what others say.

With increases in power (e.g. 250, 400, 550, 700, 850 (submax!), and maximal sprint; see Elmer et al. 2011 in MSSE) absolute power for each joint action increases and power during flexion will eventually be positive even at the pedal level meaning that power during flexion is greater than that required to lift the leg.
This data is highly relevant to the discussion of pedaling technique and motor skill acquisition because it shows that all the cyclists we have tested (from recreational to elite) CAN pull up enough to produce positive pedal power during flexion but they CHOOSE not too do so when pedaling at endurance level powers.

 

[JamesCun]

Frank, if you want to make a point, make it and make it clear and make it stand on its own. Don't 'make a point' then as soon as its countered (very easily in this case) go back and say but but but look over here... What a waste of time. If the point is that people CAN unweight, fine. That doesn't mean they should unweight if they are looking for maximum efficiency.

 

[CoachFergie]

Re:

Frank, if you want to make a point, make it and make it clear and make it stand on its own. Don't 'make a point' then as soon as its countered (very easily in this case) go back and say but but but look over here... What a waste of time. If the point is that people CAN unweight, fine. That doesn't mean they should unweight if they are looking for maximum efficiency.

Performance artist gotta perform!

 

[FrankDay]

Re:

Frank, if you want to make a point, make it and make it clear and make it stand on its own. Don't 'make a point' then as soon as its countered (very easily in this case) go back and say but but but look over here... What a waste of time. If the point is that people CAN unweight, fine. That doesn't mean they should unweight if they are looking for maximum efficiency.

You seem to be the one trying to argue whether they SHOULD unweight. Fact is everyone DOES UNWEIGHT. Now, if you believe they shouldn't be then it is up to you to come up with the evidence that not unweighting is better than what people are doing now and, perhaps, figuring out how to teach people how to pedal without unweighting.

 

[JayKosta]

Re: New study shows leg flexion less efficient than extensio

...
What do you mean by 'best blend of power and endurance'?

-----------------------------------
I mean that each athlete needs to find what 'works best for them' - I don't think there is any sort of fixed ratio of a metric such as upstroke/downstroke power that is somehow 'best' for everyone, or in all situations.

For a competitor, the 'best blend' of training and physical development would be whatever gives the best results in actual competition.
And I think it's important to know what type of training is possible, and to make good decisions about what training methods to use.

Yes, that is quite vague .... and certainly the possible gains from some types of training can be so little that the time and effort could be better spent elsewhere.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[JamesCun]

Re: Re:

Frank, if you want to make a point, make it and make it clear and make it stand on its own. Don't 'make a point' then as soon as its countered (very easily in this case) go back and say but but but look over here... What a waste of time. If the point is that people CAN unweight, fine. That doesn't mean they should unweight if they are looking for maximum efficiency.

You seem to be the one trying to argue whether they SHOULD unweight. Fact is everyone DOES UNWEIGHT. Now, if you believe they shouldn't be then it is up to you to come up with the evidence that not unweighting is better than what people are doing now and, perhaps, figuring out how to teach people how to pedal without unweighting.

Don't turn this into a binary discussion and build strawmen arguments.

 

[JamesCun]

Re: New study shows leg flexion less efficient than extensio

...
What do you mean by 'best blend of power and endurance'?

-----------------------------------
I mean that each athlete needs to find what 'works best for them' - I don't think there is any sort of fixed ratio of a metric such as upstroke/downstroke power that is somehow 'best' for everyone, or in all situations.

For a competitor, the 'best blend' of training and physical development would be whatever gives the best results in actual competition.
And I think it's important to know what type of training is possible, and to make good decisions about what training methods to use.

Yes, that is quite vague .... and certainly the possible gains from some types of training can be so little that the time and effort could be better spent elsewhere.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

Nothing you wrote here makes any sense or has any relevance to my question. Are you trying to say that training the upstroke might increase max power output over short durations but will also reduce efficiency and limit power output over longer durations? If that is your point, I agree with you.

 

[JayKosta]

Re: Re:

...
Starting to ramble there Jay. Just waaaay to much speculation for someone who I take it isn't a coach or a sport scientist.

-------------------------------
Yes I realized it was a ramble while writing it, but I hoped to get some thoughtful feedback about how various training plans and methods are 'invented' and developed.

Regarding items such as unweighting, pulling-up, uncoupled cranks, etc., I'm certain that
'everything makes a difference'
but I haven't seen any definitive answers about what the difference is, and whether, or how, it can be used to give better results.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[PhitBoy]

Re: New study shows leg flexion less efficient than extensio

This discussion reminds me of a story. When I was a beginner I happened to do rather well in a straight line sprint competition (3rd behind Les Barczewski and Jeff Fields). Afterward they invited me to train with them. One day I was riding with Jeff and asking him a bunch of these kind of questions; When he was sprinting did he pull up? Did he scrape the mud? Did he push over the top? Finally he came right over to me and leaned on me with his shoulder while we were riding (totally intimidating to me as a Cat 4). He put his face about 6" away from mine and said in a low voice "I'm trying to shove the pedals into the f*cking asphalt". Fifty research papers later and I can say he was pretty much right. Pedaling is overwhelmingly a leg extension task with a little leg flexion tacked on.
Keep it simple and it will all be fine.

 

[JayKosta]

Re: New study shows leg flexion less efficient than extensio

...
Nothing you wrote here makes any sense or has any relevance to my question. Are you trying to say that training the upstroke might increase max power output over short durations but will also reduce efficiency and limit power output over longer durations? If that is your point, I agree with you.

---------------------------------------------------------
If we are not already talking about it - please give me more info about your question regarding my mention of 'blend of power and endurance'.
ref - viewtopic.php?p=1738369#p1738369

Concerning your question above - close, but not quite - Yes training the upstroke can increase max short duration power, but probably at reduced efficiency for that short duration. Whether it will reduce overall longterm efficiency and limit longterm power COMPARED to those values BEFORE training the upstroke is unknown. It would depend on how well the person's body has responded to the upstroke training.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA

 

[CoachFergie]

Re: New study shows leg flexion less efficient than extensio

This discussion reminds me of a story. When I was a beginner I happened to do rather well in a straight line sprint competition (3rd behind Les Barczewski and Jeff Fields). Afterward they invited me to train with them. One day I was riding with Jeff and asking him a bunch of these kind of questions; When he was sprinting did he pull up? Did he scrape the mud? Did he push over the top? Finally he came right over to me and leaned on me with his shoulder while we were riding (totally intimidating to me as a Cat 4). He put his face about 6" away from mine and said in a low voice "I'm trying to shove the pedals into the f*cking asphalt". Fifty research papers later and I can say he was pretty much right. Pedaling is overwhelmingly a leg extension task with a little leg flexion tacked on.
Keep it simple and it will all be fine.

Can we get a like button happening here!!!

 

[backdoor]

Re: New study shows leg flexion less efficient than extensio

Pedaling is overwhelmingly a leg extension task with a little leg flexion tacked on.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leg_extension

 

[CoachFergie]

Thanks Noel, some of us learned what extending the leg was by doing advanced University degrees in sport science.

 

[CoachFergie]

Re: New study shows leg flexion less efficient than extensio

Concerning your question above - close, but not quite - Yes training the upstroke can increase max short duration power, but probably at reduced efficiency for that short duration. Whether it will reduce overall longterm efficiency and limit longterm power COMPARED to those values BEFORE training the upstroke is unknown. It would depend on how well the person's body has responded to the upstroke training.

It's not unknown!

The study in the OP shows this and this study supports numerous other studies showing that leg flexion is less efficient than leg extension when cycling.

Seven years of having to pedal, test this for yourself by doing single leg pedalling, in a fashion that necessitates knee and hip flexion was less efficient than pedalling with a counterweight which reduces the need for leg flexion.

Why are you clinging to this nonsense Jay? You don't have snake oil to sell, you don't have a warped world view to protect like Noel, you're not a coach holding on to some technique as a point of difference and you're not a sport scientist defending some data you have obtained. All we have heard from you is "I think", nothing tangible, no data, no evidence and from what you keep trying to tell to yourself and protest against people who do actual research on this is no frigging clue!

 

[CoachFergie]

Re: Re:

Yes I realized it was a ramble while writing it, but I hoped to get some thoughtful feedback about how various training plans and methods are 'invented' and developed.

Regarding items such as unweighting, pulling-up, uncoupled cranks, etc., I'm certain that
'everything makes a difference'
but I haven't seen any definitive answers about what the difference is, and whether, or how, it can be used to give better results.

Good, so you admit you are rambling and that you don't understand.

So why are you arguing against people who clearly have a far better understanding than you? Do you have snake oil to sell or a delusion like Noel, to protect?

You want definitive answers?

You have definitive answers. There is actually a ton of research showing that pulling up, unweighting and uncoupled cranks don't matter. Why take Frank side, when it is clear that he is just trying to confuse and cling to his marketing claims, as shoddy and despicable as they are. Why are you not listening to the sport scientists here who are actually doing research on these things, or the sport scientists and exercise scientists who have an understanding of the science that has gone into answering these questions?

You're siding with someone with a 15 year track record of blatant lies on various forums about his product. How is that working for you?

 

[CoachFergie]

Re: New study shows leg flexion less efficient than extensio

...
What do you mean by 'best blend of power and endurance'?

-----------------------------------
I mean that each athlete needs to find what 'works best for them' - I don't think there is any sort of fixed ratio of a metric such as upstroke/downstroke power that is somehow 'best' for everyone, or in all situations.

For a competitor, the 'best blend' of training and physical development would be whatever gives the best results in actual competition.
And I think it's important to know what type of training is possible, and to make good decisions about what training methods to use.

Yes, that is quite vague .... and certainly the possible gains from some types of training can be so little that the time and effort could be better spent elsewhere.

Damn straight you don't think!

Damn straight that is quite vague!

For f*cks sake try and make some sense when you write. What are you trying to achieve here, you are clearly out of your depth?! What are you wanting to come away with from participating in this discussion? If you want a seat at the adult table then you need to lift your game!

 

[berend]

Re: Re:

Here is another way to think about unweighting. Coast alone on your bike out of the saddle, one foot at 3 and one foot a 9 o'clock. You are coasting so the pedals are not turning so 50% of your weight has to be on the 3 o'clock pedal and 50% on the 9 o'clock pedal. The pedal forces are equal and opposite. Now, what do you have to do if you want to start pedaling? There is only one way, you have to have an unbalanced force with more force on the forward pedal than the backwards pedal.

Yes.

The only way to do this is to unweight the back pedal.

No.

Even if my back pedal has weight, I can turn the crank. Even if I actively push down with my back leg, but I just push down less than my front pedal, I can turn the crank.

Unweight implies "reduce weight". Either lift completely or lift partially to overcome gravity. From "weight", which comes from mass and gravity. It is not necessary to unweight to start pedalling.

If it was necessary to unweight it would not be possible to pedal single-legged with a counterweight.

 

[berend]

Re: Re:

Frank, if you want to make a point, make it and make it clear and make it stand on its own. Don't 'make a point' then as soon as its countered (very easily in this case) go back and say but but but look over here... What a waste of time. If the point is that people CAN unweight, fine. That doesn't mean they should unweight if they are looking for maximum efficiency.

You seem to be the one trying to argue whether they SHOULD unweight. Fact is everyone DOES UNWEIGHT.

I don't agree. Why do you state that as a fact?

 

[backdoor]

Re: Re:

You have definitive answers. There is actually a ton of research showing that pulling up, unweighting and uncoupled cranks don't matter. Why are you not listening to the sport scientists here who are actually doing research on these things, or the sport scientists and exercise scientists who have an understanding of the science that has gone into answering these questions?

Yes all negative research, why not search for what does matter and could improve natural pedalling performance. Can you provide a study on unweighting that does not include pulling up the pedal and crank.

 

[JayKosta]

Re: New study shows leg flexion less efficient than extensio

...
What are you trying to achieve here, you are clearly out of your depth?! What are you wanting to come away with from participating in this discussion? If you want a seat at the adult table then you need to lift your game!

-------------------------------------
Hamish (CoachFergie),

I'm trying to get a better understanding of the physiological aspects of pedaling - e.g. power generation, efficiency, and endurance. My interest is primarily intellectual - just wanting to know and understand the details.

As I said in an earlier post, I think that 'everything makes a difference' - or perhaps I should have said 'everything has an effect'.
Saying that something 'makes a difference' might be construed as it being 'important' - that's not what I mean. Just that it has some effect (perhaps tiny) on the final result.

So, I'm trying to understand the 'costs' and 'benefits' of doing those things (e.g. mashing, circular pedaling, pulling up, etc.). Knowing these things might not have much practical value - but it is of interest to me.

Jay Kosta
Endwell NY USA