New to cycling world, Can anyone help out?

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SaxonUK said:
They do seem to have trouble bringing their stage race tactics to the classics but one of their major strengths are their super domestiques. How many other teams can get a train going on a climb like Sky and still have support for their CD rider at the top. The tour last year really highlighted this and if they figure out how to bring that to the classics they will completely dominate which I feel is to the detriment of the sport

It's hard for a team to do both. Sky have built a team of super climbers and there isn't room on their roster or budget to build a team of classics hard men. They can't fight a war on two fronts. In fact their climbing prowess is possibly their greatest weakness, with that many climbers on their GT teams it may be harder for them to power their way back after splits/crashes/punctures on the flatter or hilly stages. They sometimes find themselves badly positioned on flattish/hilly tour stages and that could be able to be taken advantage of as Saxo showed at the tour last year.
 
Aug 16, 2011
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ianstannard said:
Sorry for annoying you guys, but I really want to know somethings about Sky which cannot be found on the internet. Why are Sky not good in one day races? they have riders such as Stannard and Thomas which are pretty good.

Not an annoyance at all. Your questions are actually opening up some interesting discussions. :)

IMO the reason Sky fail in the classics has to do with how they thrive in situations that can be controlled. MTF and stage races being prime examples, but in a one day race there is multiple attacks, riders going all out (because the race is only one day), riders taking advantage of whatever obstacles they can use (cobbles, short climbs, small roads, corners, etc.). It's just in general a very difficult race to control. So their train and tactics of controlling the peloton don't work as well.

Then another large factor that must be considered is they do not have a top one day contender. They don't have a Sagan, Boonen, or Cancellara. Instead they have mostly guys that are strong domestiques or hardmen like Stannard or Eisel. So to win and achieve high placing they should rely more on breakaway type tactics instead of through trying to compete directly with the top guys.
 
Afrank said:
Then another large factor that must be considered is they do not have a top one day contender. They don't have a Sagan, Boonen, or Cancellara.

Also with their focus on the bigger stage races it's very unlikely a rider with any major classics potential would be willing to sign for them.
 
Sky have only ever shown themselves adept at one tactic: the simple bludgeoning tactic of getting on the front and riding too fast for anybody else to attack. This worked in the sprint when Cavendish was at the team for the same reason it did at HTC - they kept the break on a tight leash until it was time to lead the sprint out, then rode so hard nobody could get away. This works in the mountains doubly so because they set a pace so high that they burn everybody else off the back. And then, they have the strongest climber at the back of that train, so once he feels the time is right he's in the perfect position to launch his attack.

In the Classics, however, that's much harder to do. In a stage race, the break often consists of GC no-hopers and break specialists in small groups; once the péloton is happy with the composition of the break, they just let them go, then start reeling them back, and leave them out there until close to the end; while there's a break up front that they've missed, most riders will sit back in the bunch feeling that their stage win chances are gone for the day and they'll preserve energy to try and get into the break the following day. In the Classics, much more dangerous riders will want to get into the attack groups, and you will regularly find that because it's imperative to be near the front at narrow or steep sections, a lot more jostling to be at the front and a lot less willingness to allow one team to dictate the pace. This means that it is unlikely that a team will be able to mass rank at the front, and then as soon as there are punctures, accidents, the wind blows and the riders form echelons, or simply a couple of riders who can't hack the pace but due to the narrow road are holding a lot of people back from staying with the pace of the leaders, you get the situation where the race fragments, and because few teams are able to gather all their forces together in one place, riders have to do a lot more work alone or in small groups than they ever would in stage races unless they were in the break of the day group.

Sky's one successful tactic works very well, as long as they have either 1) a numerical advantage; 2) the strongest rider for the style of finish. In the Classics they do not have anybody who classes as #2, so they need to fashion #1. And they to date have not shown the capability of providing such a situation, with very few exceptions. A notable exception would be Paris-Roubaix 2012, where a number of Sky domestiques failed to catch Tom Boonen riding solo. A lot of the reason for this was that of the 3-4 Sky riders in the bunch, Ian Stannard was the most tired, having done a lot more work on the front earlier in the race than the others; as he was likely to be the first to drop, the team put him on the front and then toasted him; he couldn't keep up with Boonen because he was shattered, so the gap got bigger, and the other Sky engines were left with too much to do when Stannard's tank finally hit 'empty' (and you will know it takes a lot of effort for Ian Stannard's tank to hit 'empty').

Sky have plenty of riders who would be capable of winning in the Classics. However, unlike in the stage races, they do not have any who can win by being the strongest unless there are some very crash-decimated fields, so they have to rely on winning by being the smartest; thus far, I'm afraid for Sky fans, they have not shown that this is in their repertoire.
 
Apr 12, 2009
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Afrank said:
Not an annoyance at all. Your questions are actually opening up some interesting discussions. :)
Indeed. This is one of the best threads in a long time. Back to basics, let's talk about pure tactics, emotions, and why we all love this sport.
 
Buffalo Soldier said:
Indeed. This is one of the best threads in a long time. Back to basics, let's talk about pure tactics, emotions, and why we all love this sport.

Problem is last few years tactics have gone out of the window. Its become a pure strength game, where all teams know to do is pull things back for a leader so they can go one on one with their opponents and the strongest guy wins.

When was the last time a team actually won through tactics. Moser at MSB?
 
The Hitch said:
Problem is last few years tactics have gone out of the window. Its become a pure strength game, where all teams know to do is pull things back for a leader so they can go one on one with their opponents and the strongest guy wins.

When was the last time a team actually won through tactics. Moser at MSB?

Martin in Liège, sort of.
 
Tony Gallopin in San Sebastián or the FDJ annihilation of Tro Bro Léon? Mourey got away thanks to the numbers game and then the FDJ riders in the chasing pack stayed with everybody that tried to whittle the group down & rid themselves of the passengers, until being able to leave them behind and make it a 1-2-3.
 
Apr 12, 2009
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The Hitch said:
Problem is last few years tactics have gone out of the window. Its become a pure strength game, where all teams know to do is pull things back for a leader so they can go one on one with their opponents and the strongest guy wins.

When was the last time a team actually won through tactics. Moser at MSB?
Honestly, that's tactics too, and apparently they work:

And even when not every race is won by tactics, lots and lots are lost because of it...
 
Jun 2, 2010
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The Hitch said:
Problem is last few years tactics have gone out of the window. Its become a pure strength game, where all teams know to do is pull things back for a leader so they can go one on one with their opponents and the strongest guy wins.

When was the last time a team actually won through tactics. Moser at MSB?

Rui Costa WC.
 
del1962 said:
More of an individual rather than team win (unless Nibali was on RUi Costa's team) though, maybe the Spanish lost it through tactics:eek:
He still rode very intelligently though.

If anyone wants a master class in classics racing, they should be looking at Devolders two Flanders wins. Quickstep had it won at the sign on.
 
Apr 12, 2009
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I have the feeling people on this forum often don't realize racing tactics when they happen.

When Hushovd refused to work with Cancellara in Roubaix '11 for example, he was called a "wheelsucker" by many, while this was perfect team tactics with Vansummeren in the lead.

If you want to see team tactics in recent cycling (good and bad): watch stage 13 of TdF13.
 
Apr 12, 2009
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del1962 said:
More of an individual rather than team win (unless Nibali was on RUi Costa's team) though, maybe the Spanish lost it through tactics:eek:
The Spanish clearly lost it through tactics. That was one epic failure.
 
Buffalo Soldier said:
I have the feeling people on this forum often don't realize racing tactics when they happen.

When Hushovd refused to work with Cancellara in Roubaix '11 for example, he was called a "wheelsucker" by many, while this was perfect team tactics with Vansummeren in the lead.

If you want to see team tactics in recent cycling (good and bad): watch stage 13 of TdF13.

Van summeren absolutely was team tactics since Hudhovd had a leader in front so had a licence to wheelsuck. It was also 3 years ago.

However a lot of the other "wheelsuck" wins are not tactical genius. E.g. Costa or gerrans. Those are guys who sit at the back and pray as hard as they can that this time the other riders in the group will let them off. I don't consider it tactics because everyone knows from the first day they watch cycling that being in slipstream is an advantage so I really don't see any great tactical intelligence from such a move at all.
 
The Hitch said:
Problem is last few years tactics have gone out of the window. Its become a pure strength game, where all teams know to do is pull things back for a leader so they can go one on one with their opponents and the strongest guy wins.

Do you think race organisers have a duty to counteract this through stage design and if so, any ideas how should they do that? Sometimes it seems all the GC guys want it to come down to a wattsfest as they just mark each other on the mixed type stages and save their energy for the big MTFs (Saxo TdF 2013 crosswinds one of the big exceptions obviously).
 
The Hitch said:
Those are guys who sit at the back and pray as hard as they can that this time the other riders in the group will let them off. I don't consider it tactics because everyone knows from the first day they watch cycling that being in slipstream is an advantage so I really don't see any great tactical intelligence from such a move at all.

Or the Thomas Voeckler James Brown special. Anyone who's seen James Brown live will know he used to do this bit towards the end of the show where he'd pretend to be exhausted and slump to the floor with his head in his hand saying "I can't go on!". The assistant would put a blanket around him and start to lead him off stage but just when everyone feared the worst he'd spring to his feet and claim the maillot jaune with a late attack while the band played Get Up Offa That Thing.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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ianstannard said:
Can teams be compared with each other? Eg. Can you compare opqs and Sky in which team is better?

I would say only so far as you can ask which is the better team, Miami heat or Manchester United. If the Heat play football they are going to lose, and vice versa. Similarly if OPQS try to win the GC at the Tour or Sky try to win Paris Roubaix. Maybe a little closer than that, maybe rugby union vs rugby league. Which is the better team will often come down to your preferences and how you weigh them up.
Personally I've never enjoyed one dimensional teams, so right now I'd say OPQS have the better team, The best TTer in the world, one of the best 3 sprinters in the world, one of the best 3 classics riders in the world, an upcoming who knows talent in Kwiatowski, and this year a few riders who have ridden high in GC. Then a strong supporting cast though leaning to classics. Sky has the best GC rider in the world, and another who is probably top 5. Personally as far as other specialties go I'd rate Henao next as one of the top 5 puncheurs in the world. Then as a support cast they lean far too heavily to stage racing. Sky are stage racers and any other specialty is near fending for themselves and hoping.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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vedrafjord said:
Do you think race organisers have a duty to counteract this through stage design and if so, any ideas how should they do that? Sometimes it seems all the GC guys want it to come down to a wattsfest as they just mark each other on the mixed type stages and save their energy for the big MTFs (Saxo TdF 2013 crosswinds one of the big exceptions obviously).

It's really hard to design for, especially when teams are so large and strong. Imagine the peloton riding a TT against just one of the super strong squad, SKy, Movistar, Saxo, etc the peloton wouldn't win by much, and the peloton will never even approach riding against one team in such a way, oh and they have to make a break in the first place. 5 riders, very different outcome.
Even when courses do throw up opportunities they often aren't grasped. Contador at Fuente de was an example of the opportunity being grasped, but if Rodriguez marks him then it's for nothing, if even worse the teams behind collude and organise a genuine chase early then maybe the day ends with Contador being caught on the low slopes of the final climb devoid of energy and losing time. Not waiting for the final climb is a high risk strategy.
Design challenging courses with tests and launching points along the length of the course and hope riders take advantage. Which has failed many times, so...have plenty of mountains, but no MTFs ;) Either riders race or....Sagan wins GC.