Nibali at the same level as Froome/Contador?

[BlurryVII]

better descending skills.

By the way, did Nibali ever gain serious time on a descent? Nope. He actually never did anything, just failed some long ranged attacks.
The only time he was truly impressive was on the Cima grappa descent in the Giro 2010.

 

[alin.constantin89]

By the way, did Nibali ever gain serious time on a descent? Nope. He actually never did anything, just failed some long ranged attacks.
The only time he was truly impressive was on the Cima grappa descent in the Giro 2010.

Yes he did, Tirreno-Adriatico 2013 against Froome and Contador.

 

[PirazziAttacksVino]

UCI Road World Championship, 2013, Elite Men Time Trial, 56.8 km

1.Tony Martin 1:05:36.65
2.Bradley Wiggins 0:00:46.09
3.Fabian Cancellara 0:00:48.34

Saturday's ITT was 54 km. Froome would have been 1 minute down on Tony.

 

[Eshnar]

I don't care, Purito has better bike handling skills, ya know, he avoided crashes and all that Deserved, end of story!
Don't you agree? Do you think Nibz would have dropped purito on that final wall? Is Nibali God on these forums? Just wondering.

that was actually my point. On a bike race, you have to stay on the bike. Nibali's Tour win is as deserved as Purito's Lombardia.

By the way, did Nibali ever gain serious time on a descent? Nope. He actually never did anything, just failed some long ranged attacks.
The only time he was truly impressive was on the Cima grappa descent in the Giro 2010.

He also gained time on the Giau in 2011, in a Vuelta 2011 stage together with some teammates, on the Grand Colombiere descent in 2012, on the Ares in the same Tour...

 

[BlurryVII]

Yes he did, Tirreno-Adriatico 2013 against Froome and Contador.

And it is the only example in his whole career

Taking into account that Contador was completely out of shape.

 

[BlurryVII]

that was actually my point. On a bike race, you have to stay on the bike. Nibali's Tour win is as deserved as Purito's Lombardia.

He also gained time on the Giau in 2011, in a Vuelta 2011 stage together with some teammates, on the Grand Colombiere descent in 2012, on the Ares in the same Tour...

Yep, but I'm criticizing people who claim he has better bike handling skills. It's a false assumption, he was still lucky he didn't crash a single time this Tour.
Also you can't compare Purito's lombardia win, with Nibali's Tour win. It is a known Nibali can't drop Murito on a wall, and it is known that the italian is AC & CF's ***** on the mountains, see the difference?

As for your second point: Descents quite aren't a decisive matter in a GT:
Giro 2011 + 6 - 7 min from Contador / Vuelta 2011 + 4.31 from Cobo / Tour 2012 6 - 7 min from Wiggo

 

[Pricey_sky]

UCI Road World Championship, 2013, Elite Men Time Trial, 56.8 km

1.Tony Martin 1:05:36.65
2.Bradley Wiggins 0:00:46.09
3.Fabian Cancellara 0:00:48.34

Saturday's ITT was 54 km. Froome would have been 1 minute down on Tony.

You may be right but don't forget that worlds TT course was almost pan flat apart from a little bump at the start which favours the specialists, Saturdays route was much more rolling. Also Martin would have been aiming to be in peak fitness for the Worlds whereas GC guys would be in peak at the Tour.

 

[Eshnar]

Yep, but no point in saying that he has better bike handling skills. It's a false assumption, he was still lucky he didn't crash a single time.
Also you can't compare Purito's lombardia win, with Nibali's Tour win. Nibali can't drop Murito on a wall, while it is known that the italian is AC & CF's ***** on the mountains, see the difference?

It was known, now it is not. Nibs numbers were pretty impressive this Tour.
May I also remind you that in the WC Purito actually lost time on Nibali on the final wall? He (VN) was in great form those days.

As for your second point: Descents are quite aren't a decisive matter in a GT:
Giro 2011 + 6 - 7 min from Contador / Vuelta 2011 + 4.31 from Cobo / Tour 2012 6 - 7 min from Wiggo

You're changing your point here? You claimed that he never gained time on a descent besides the Giro 2010...
And yes, descents don't matter much nowadays. Does this imply that Nibali is not a good descender?

 

[BlurryVII]

It was known, now it is not. Nibs numbers were pretty impressive this Tour.

It wasn't. He stayed with péraud on Risoul and Chamrousse. He did only put 15 secs on Pinot (PDB). Even considering his Hautacam performance, it is nothing compared to Froome's Ax 3, or to Contador 2009/ Vuelta 2008 / Tour 2007 / Giro 2011 average power or even Dauphiné 2014, Paris Nice 2009 Montagne de Lure and so on and so forth. Those global performances are far superior in numbers.

You're changing you're point here? You claimed that he never gained time on a descent besides the Giro 2010...
And yes, descents don't matter much nowadays. Does this imply that Nibali is not a good descender?

My point was: He never gained serious time on a descent, in other words he never made any serious difference, see above.

 

[Eshnar]

It wasn't. He stayed with péraud on Risoul and Chamrousse. He did only put 15 secs on Pinot (PDB). Even considering his Hautacam performance, it is nothing compared to Froome's Ax 3, or to Contador 2009/ Vuelta 2008 / Tour 2007 / Giro 2011 or even Dauphiné 2014, Paris Nice 2009 Montagne de Lure and so on and so forth. Those global performances are far superior in numbers.

Hautacam was the only time he really pushed I'd say. Or you're one of those who think Pinot actually dropped him on Bales? In any case, Froome's Ax-3 or AC's Verbier are of course even more impressive. What makes you think they're able to repeat them? And even if they were, how can you say that would have made up 2'30''? And what makes you think they would have worked together instead of trackstanding like they did on the Dauphine? Remember, they're not teammates.

My point was: He never gained serious time on a descent, in other words he never made any serious difference, see above.

He did make serious time. On the descent. If after that there are 50+ kms it's not Nibali's fault.

 

[BlurryVII]

Hautacam was the only time he really pushed I'd say. Or you're one of those who think Pinot actually dropped him on Bales? In any case, Froome's Ax-3 or AC's Verbier are of course even more impressive. What makes you think they're able to repeat them? And even if they were, how can you say that would have made up 2'30''? And what makes you think they would have worked together instead of trackstanding like they did on the Dauphine? Remember, they're not teammates.

Pretty easy to throw these questions out there: Would Nibali's recovery be the same against AC & CF's incessant attacks on the mountains stage after stage? Would Nibali have been stronger towards the end of the Tour? And had he pushed harder on Risoul & Chamrousse, would he have been as strong on Hautacam as he was ? Would he have crashed on the Balès Descent if Contador had taken risks there?

By the way, it's the Tour, not the Dauphiné, Froome & Contador would have certainly worked together on the first stages to get rid of Nibali just like Contador and Andy in 2010 on la Madeleine, just like Contador & Rassmussen on Plateau de Beille 2007. It's the Tour, keep that in mind.

He did make serious time. On the descent. If after that there are 50+ kms it's not Nibali's fault.

Well, maybe the peloton let him gain serious time because there was still a long way to go?

 

[Eshnar]

Pretty easy to throw these questions out there: Would Nibali's recovery be the same against AC & CF's incessant attacks on the mountains stage after stage? Would have Nibali been stronger towards the end of the Tour? And had he pushed harder on Risoul & Chamrousse, would have he been as strong on Hautacam as he was ? Would have he crashed on the Balès Descent if Contador took risks there?

By the way, it's the Tour, not the Dauphiné, Froome & Contador would have certainly worked together on the first stages to get rid of Nibali just like Contador and Andy in 2010 on la Madeleine, just like Contador & Rassmussen on Plateau de Beille 2007. It's the Tour, keep that in mind.

Lots of questions indeed. And the answer is that we don't know.

Well, maybe the peloton let him gain serious time because there was still a long way to go?

Maybe. But for instance there was no peloton on the Gardeccia stage.

 

[IronCQ]

I really don't see why everybody still into comparing different races, different targets, he gained 3'', he lost 5'', he is better, he has more watts, he has more panache and blablabla...can't you simply enjoy the race? I thought cycling was more that simple speculation and watching numbers. I thought it was more about dreaming big, working hard to achieve that, and respect who win but who's second (or last) too. I thought it was something like this...

Can we stop the woulda coulda shoulda with no place in reality and enjoy some great racing? Can we?

 

[Dutchsmurf]

Hautacam was the only time he really pushed I'd say. Or you're one of those who think Pinot actually dropped him on Bales? In any case, Froome's Ax-3 or AC's Verbier are of course even more impressive. What makes you think they're able to repeat them? And even if they were, how can you say that would have made up 2'30''? And what makes you think they would have worked together instead of trackstanding like they did on the Dauphine? Remember, they're not teammates.

He did make serious time. On the descent. If after that there are 50+ kms it's not Nibali's fault.

Hautacam was the only time he might have really pushed, but the final gaps he had, especially compared to the complete lack of opposition, were small. Only 1 minute on guys like Pinot? Contador's Verbier resulted in a minute gap, but he did it on actually decent riders.

And on your point of those 50+km after the descent. That is typical Nibali for you. Wasting a lot of energy on something that just isn't going to work. See MSR for one recent example.

 

[Eshnar]

Hautacam was the only time he might have really pushed, but the final gaps he had, especially compared to the complete lack of opposition, were small. Only 1 minute on guys like Pinot? Contador's Verbier resulted in a minute gap, but he did it on actually decent riders.

So Pinot is not actually a decent rider. Cool. I guess Froome Ax-3 was against the ultramythical climbers Porte and Valverde, who btw were both in the race this year. As for Andy, better not even mention him.

And on your point of those 50+km after the descent. That is typical Nibali for you. Wasting a lot of energy on something that just isn't going to work. See MSR for one recent example.

That's not wasting energy... it's a waste only if you can use that energy later. In the MSR there is no other chance for Nibali other than doing what he did. So it is not a wasted effort.

 

[BlurryVII]

So Pinot is not actually a decent rider. Cool. I guess Froome Ax-3 was against the ultramythical climbers Porte and Valverde, who btw were both in the race this year. As for Andy, better not even mention him.

Porte 2013 >>>>>> Porte 2014.
Valverde 2013 >>> Valverde 2014

Andy? Andy 2009 would smash right away Nibali on the mountains, no point in mentioning the new Andy. Two different riders.

 

[Eshnar]

Porte 2013 >>>>>> Porte 2014.
Valverde 2013 >>> Valverde 2014

Andy? Andy 2009 would smash right away Nibali on the mountains, no point in mentioning the new Andy. Two different riders.

Pinot 2014 >>>> Pinot 2012 maybe?
Nibali 2014 >>>> Nibali 2012 ?

Interesting that you seem to think that riders can get worse but cannot improve at all.

 

[Dutchsmurf]

So Pinot is not actually a decent rider. Cool. I guess Froome Ax-3 was against the ultramythical climbers Porte and Valverde, who btw were both in the race this year. As for Andy, better not even mention him.

That's not wasting energy... it's a waste only if you can use that energy later. In the MSR there is no other chance for Nibali other than doing what he did. So it is not a wasted effort.

Pinot 2014 as GT rider isn't even close to Andy 2009 or Porte 2013 and you know it. I like Pinot a lot and he sure has promise for the coming years. But it will be 2016 before he has a shot at that level.

Nibali attacking at useless times is almost a running joke on this forum, especially in the classics. He got better at it the last year or so, but his MSR attack was never going to work. Doing something that will never work, is a waste of energy to me. He could have attacked later and had a chance. A small chance maybe, but still better than the 0% chance he had with the attack he did.

 

[IronCQ]

I guess logic doesnt really apply here

Porte 2013 >>>>>> Porte 2014.
Valverde 2013 >>> Valverde 2014

So the only constants are CF 201X>>>>>>>>CF 201Y where X>Y.
Same apply to Contador.
The other riders seem to belong to the real world where RIDER 201X<>=RIDER 201Y with X>Y

Given enough time, CF and AC could climb and TTing at warp speed

 

[BlurryVII]

Pinot 2014 >>>> Pinot 2012 maybe?
Nibali 2014 >>>> Nibali 2012 ?

Interesting that you seem to think that riders can get worse but cannot improve at all.

What's the point of comparing with 2012? And Pinot in the Tour 2012 had a similar level, he followed Froome's attack on la Toussuire, and finished with him on Peyragurdes when Nibali was way behind. He isn't better than he was on that Tour. Nibali improved quite a bit though, not drastically .

 

[Eshnar]

Pinot 2014 as GT rider isn't even close to Andy 2009 or Porte 2013 and you know it.

How can you know it, exactly?
And just for the record, Andy 2009 was only 3+ minutes better than Nibali 2009. Can we safely assume that Nibali has improved since then? He may even have improved by more than 3 minutes

I like Pinot a lot and he sure has promise for the coming years. But it will be 2016 before he has a shot at that level.

I want a crystal ball too. Where did you buy yours?

Nibali attacking at useless times is almost a running joke on this forum, especially in the classics. He got better at it the last year or so, but his MSR attack was never going to work. Doing something that will never work, is a waste of energy to me. He could have attacked later and had a chance. A small chance maybe, but still better than the 0% chance he had with the attack he did.

Nibali has 0% chance on the Poggio. He has maybe 1% on the Cipressa, base on the chance that the peloton lets him with a big enough advantage to hold. On the Poggio, he won't stay away. Never.

 

[Eshnar]

What's the point of comparing with 2012? And Pinot in the Tour 2012 had a similar level, he followed Froome's attack on la Toussuire, and finished with him on Peyragurdes when Nibali was way behind. He isn't better than he was on that Tour. Nibali improved quite a bit though, not drastically .

I compared him with 2012 because in 2013 he was quite crappy.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

What's the point of comparing with 2012? And Pinot in the Tour 2012 had a similar level, he followed Froome's attack on la Toussuire, and finished with him on Peyragurdes when Nibali was way behind. He isn't better than he was on that Tour. Nibali improved quite a bit though, not drastically .

True, Pinot doesn't seem to have improved except for his descending skills, where he is now average.
Nibali, compared to 2012, is an entirely different rider. I think he's been around his 2013 Giro level in this Tour

 

[whittashau]

Wow, is BlurryVII really trying to say that Nibali isn't a great bike handler? So all the felow riders that have said that he is are lying? Magnus Backstedt has waxed lyrical about Nibali's descending on ES. Surely his former teammate should know a thing or two.

 

[BlurryVII]

Wow, is BlurryVII really trying to say that Nibali isn't a great bike handler? So all the felow riders that have said that he is are lying? Magnus Backstedt has waxed lyrical about Nibali's descending on ES. Surely his former teammate should know a thing or two.

I'm not saying he is a bad bike handler, but nothing shows he is better than a Quintana or Contador for instance.
It is an insignificant argument to use for comparisons and irrelevant quality in a GT. And Bike handling is NOT related to crashes whatsoever, you know, things like "Nibali is much better bike handler, he did beat AC & CF, they didn't even finish the race, it's part of being the most complete GT rider" are ridiculous, and don't make any sense to me. I call this bull****.
Look at Sagan, the guy handles his bike like nobody else in the peloton, he still crashed towards the end of the Tour. And already crashed in his career.
So stop already with your false assumptions, a crash is almost everytime a matter of BAD LUCK. That's it, end of story. Contador didn't crash more than Nibali in his career, so stop with the bullcrap.