Nike Oregon Project

[Dr.Guess]

Former trainee under Salazar responds. "Don't call me a liar"
http://www.eurosport.com/athletics/don-t-call-me-a-liar-goucher-tells-alberto-salazar_sto4800123/story.shtml

 

[heart_attack_man]

That photo in the article of her with Radcliffe is hilarious. Paula is cleans! Cleans, I tell ya!

 

[vedrafjord]

Re: Re:

Maybe if exercise causes an asthma attack, it's time to do something less strenuous for your exercise.

I'm thinking I need to get on some roids via an inhaler or whatever these guys are using. I feel like competing again on the masters level.

I've posted about this before but as an asthmatic who cycles and does other sports I'm a bit less cynical than most people here about inhaler usage. We're talking about two types of inhaler:

* a short acting reliever inhaler such as salbutamol ('veltolin'/'albuterol') to open up the airways when they're narrowed due to illness/allergies/exercise/some other trigger. In my experience if I take this when I don't need to it doesn't have an effect as my airways are already open. Here are some studies http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21142283 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21327796 http://thorax.bmj.com/content/56/9/675.full that say there's little evidence for these inhalers improving performance in non asthmatic individuals.

* a corticosteroid inhaler such as beclometasone taken every day to reduce inflammation and stop the immune system over-reacting to harmless triggers. This is the same class of drugs as the cortisone that Armstrong got his TUE for or the prednisolone that Froome had in Romandie last year, but at a way lower dosage because it's delivered straight to where it's used (my one is 100 micrograms twice a day) and anecdotally, as I've had prednisolone when ill, way weaker.

My experience is that neither inhaler gives any performance boost beyond relieving symptoms of illness. Among people involved in sport I know, the rate of asthma is pretty high and we were diagnosed when we were in school or younger (I was diagnosed when I was 3), so I don't find reports of high asthma rates in elite athletes that concerning.

 

[harveydowns]

Not sure if anybody else caught the Mo Farah interview on Sky Sports News last night?

Transcript:
http://www.theguardian.com/sport/2015/jun/30/mo-farah-sky-sports-interview-jim-white-transcript

Some video (not full interview):
http://www.football365.com/news/307...termined-to-clear-name-after-drug-allegations

Mo came across as a less intelligent, less confident version of Lance, without the LAF story to get people to support him.

 

[Pies&Booze]

Re: Re:

Maybe if exercise causes an asthma attack, it's time to do something less strenuous for your exercise.

I'm thinking I need to get on some roids via an inhaler or whatever these guys are using. I feel like competing again on the masters level.

I've posted about this before but as an asthmatic who cycles and does other sports I'm a bit less cynical than most people here about inhaler usage. We're talking about two types of inhaler:

* a short acting reliever inhaler such as salbutamol ('veltolin'/'albuterol') to open up the airways when they're narrowed due to illness/allergies/exercise/some other trigger. In my experience if I take this when I don't need to it doesn't have an effect as my airways are already open. Here are some studies
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21142283 http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21327796 http://thorax.bmj.com/content/56/9/675.full that say there's little evidence for these inhalers improving performance in non asthmatic individuals.

* a corticosteroid inhaler such as beclometasone taken every day to reduce inflammation and stop the immune system over-reacting to harmless triggers. This is the same class of drugs as the cortisone that Armstrong got his TUE for or the prednisolone that Froome had in Romandie last year, but at a way lower dosage because it's delivered straight to where it's used (my one is 100 micrograms twice a day) and anecdotally, as I've had prednisolone when ill, way weaker.

My experience is that neither inhaler gives any performance boost beyond relieving symptoms of illness. Among people involved in sport I know, the rate of asthma is pretty high and we were diagnosed when we were in school or younger (I was diagnosed when I was 3), so I don't find reports of high asthma rates in elite athletes that concerning.

Well my take is that why is the incidence of asthma so much higher in athletes? Clearly helps performance or why take the stuff. And exercise induced is bullsh*t. If you reach your max natural limit then that's your natural limit- don't take drugs and still compete. If it's that bad, take your drugs and drop out or don't compete.

I'm sorry but I think it's naive to think these drugs are not being abused by a lot of athletes.

Relieving symptoms is a performance boost and there's plenty of literature on these drugs helping non asthmatics as a short acting boost (even in the stuff you linked). Bit like saying EPO only helps anaemics in my book.

Mo changed his asthma drugs shortly after joining Salazar we are hearing now. More to come from this saga me thinks.

 

[scunnysi]

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/athletics/31720589

"The problem raised here reflects directly on Driouch rather than Farah.''

 

[Catwhoorg]

It just reflects indirectly on Farah.

Choose your friends wisely as the saying goes. This isn't quite as bad as TJVG being motopaced by Lance, but its a bad association.

 

[vedrafjord]

Re: Re:

Well my take is that why is the incidence of asthma so much higher in athletes? Clearly helps performance or why take the stuff. And exercise induced is bullsh*t. If you reach your max natural limit then that's your natural limit- don't take drugs and still compete. If it's that bad, take your drugs and drop out or don't compete.

I'm sorry but I think it's naive to think these drugs are not being abused by a lot of athletes.

Relieving symptoms is a performance boost and there's plenty of literature on these drugs helping non asthmatics as a short acting boost (even in the stuff you linked). Bit like saying EPO only helps anaemics in my book.

Exercise induced asthma is not ***. It doesn't mean reaching your natural limit - it means that your natural limit suddenly craters due to an immune response.

Here's a small study on adolescents aged 14-18 (so hopefully no sneaky dopers) which showed rates of ~50% in footballers and basketballers http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21912293.

Do you really believe that people with any long term syndrome or disease should be banned from all sport, or just asthmatics? Should Novo Nordisk be barred because they're diabetics who have to take insulin? I absolutely disagree that relief of symptoms from a disease can be classed as performance enhancing and therefore banned.

The comparison with EPO is ludicrous given we know how insanely powerful EPO is re: performance while the jury is still out to put it mildly on performance boost from inhalers.

 

[Pies&Booze]

Re: Re:

Well my take is that why is the incidence of asthma so much higher in athletes? Clearly helps performance or why take the stuff. And exercise induced is bullsh*t. If you reach your max natural limit then that's your natural limit- don't take drugs and still compete. If it's that bad, take your drugs and drop out or don't compete.

I'm sorry but I think it's naive to think these drugs are not being abused by a lot of athletes.

Relieving symptoms is a performance boost and there's plenty of literature on these drugs helping non asthmatics as a short acting boost (even in the stuff you linked). Bit like saying EPO only helps anaemics in my book.

Exercise induced asthma is not ***. It doesn't mean reaching your natural limit - it means that your natural limit suddenly craters due to an immune response.

Here's a small study on adolescents aged 14-18 (so hopefully no sneaky dopers) which showed rates of ~50% in footballers and basketballers http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/21912293.

Do you really believe that people with any long term syndrome or disease should be banned from all sport, or just asthmatics? Should Novo Nordisk be barred because they're diabetics who have to take insulin? I absolutely disagree that relief of symptoms from a disease can be classed as performance enhancing and therefore banned.

The comparison with EPO is ludicrous given we know how insanely powerful EPO is re: performance while the jury is still out to put it mildly on performance boost from inhalers.

I meant top sportsmen claiming exercise induced asthma is bullsh*t. I don't doubt this exists. I am by no means an expert but I don't think it's an immune response (which is how your body recognises and defends itself against bacteria, viruses, and substances that appear foreign and harmful etc.) It is a response to over exertion. Anyway I'm with D*ck Pound on this one. When one of the treatments for asthma is inhaled corticosteroids you have to be sceptical.

It is also fair to say that these drugs are being taken in the hope of improving performance, whether or not they actually do anything. There are also the longer term side effects to consider.

Again, your linked study is not very convincing, if you actually read it. 90 subjects tested. 22 showing initial indication of a reduction of >= 10% of forced expiratory volume ("FEV") (doesn't say how many were at 10%). Of that 22 who were reevaluated with the microspirometer during a training session, only 9 were found with >=10% reduction of FEV. That's 10% of the original sample. So quoting 50% was quite misleading. The study was trying to show a difference between football, basketball, water polo and not percentage incidence of total populations. And these were Greek schoolkids not pro sports with a ton of cash to chase.

You make an interesting point regarding diabetics, which I guess is a lot harder fake and game the system, although I do believe insulin is a regularly abused PED. (And I'm not saying anything against Novo Nordisk in this respect).

I wasn't actually comparing this to EPO but just the way that some people have said that EPO has no effect on elite athletes. And there have also been purported studies saying EPO has no effect on elites. Ridiculous.

Simple logic indicates that if a greater proportion of athletes (whose currency is being healthier and having stronger and fitter lungs than the general population) are taking these drugs than in the general population then there is probably something going on.

Am happy to change my mind if more convincing evidence/arguments are presented..... but it better be good.