No time bonuses in the Giro 2012 MTFs!!!

[Eshnar]

But I did give a link.

yes, thx for that

 

[burning]

stage 7 is a MTF... a joke, I agree, but it is a MTF. Stage 8 shouldn't have been considered a MTF, but it's not comparable to last year's Tropea stage. Stage 16 is comparable (it's harded though), and it is not considered MTF.
edit: plz don't tell me Contador attacked on Zonc for those 4 bonus seconds

I said sort of

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Time bonuses given a massive advantage to climbers who can sprint. A stage victory is its own rewards, GC should go to the rider who rides the course in the shortest time. Just look at last years Vuelta

There are perfectly valid reasons FOR time bonuses and perfectly valid reasons AGAINST it. The Vuelta encapsulates both - on the positive side, they enticed Cobo to attack and make a fist of it, and gave us entertainment at the fighting for intermediate sprints in week 3, and added another level of subplot. On the negative side, the guy that won the race didn't complete the course as quickly as the guy that came 2nd so it wasn't a true reflection of time. Races in recent history seem to have shown that a lack of time bonuses has bred mostly conservative racing, while time bonuses have bred more exciting, but at times (especially on less selective parcours) perhaps slightly artificial, racing.

However, whether you are pro- or anti-bonifications, that is not the issue here. What's the issue is that some stages offer bonuses and some do not. Either there should be bonuses or there should not; there should be consistency.

It seems like they're trying to maintain the entertainment of the week 1 trading of the jersey in the flat stages (after all, with the Tour's lack of bonus seconds you sometimes get something like 2009, when Cancellara took the jersey and nobody had a chance to get it off him for a week), but without running the risk of time bonuses picked up in the mountains affecting the overall GC (like it did at the Vuelta). However, if racing with time bonuses feels a bit artificial, racing with time bonuses only partially applied is INCREDIBLY artificial.

 

[Richeypen]

There are perfectly valid reasons FOR time bonuses and perfectly valid reasons AGAINST it. The Vuelta encapsulates both - on the positive side, they enticed Cobo to attack and make a fist of it, and gave us entertainment at the fighting for intermediate sprints in week 3, and added another level of subplot. On the negative side, the guy that won the race didn't complete the course as quickly as the guy that came 2nd so it wasn't a true reflection of time. Races in recent history seem to have shown that a lack of time bonuses has bred mostly conservative racing, while time bonuses have bred more exciting, but at times (especially on less selective parcours) perhaps slightly artificial, racing.

However, whether you are pro- or anti-bonifications, that is not the issue here. What's the issue is that some stages offer bonuses and some do not. Either there should be bonuses or there should not; there should be consistency.

It seems like they're trying to maintain the entertainment of the week 1 trading of the jersey in the flat stages (after all, with the Tour's lack of bonus seconds you sometimes get something like 2009, when Cancellara took the jersey and nobody had a chance to get it off him for a week), but without running the risk of time bonuses picked up in the mountains affecting the overall GC (like it did at the Vuelta). However, if racing with time bonuses feels a bit artificial, racing with time bonuses only partially applied is INCREDIBLY artificial.

Totally agree with you.

If the problem is them trying to avoid someone holding the jersey for ages with no chance of losing it then surly the problem is with the parcours. Add some nice hilly transitional stages where breaks have a real chance of succeeding and it s problem solved.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Great News. Let the real time decide.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

There are perfectly valid reasons FOR time bonuses and perfectly valid reasons AGAINST it. The Vuelta encapsulates both - on the positive side, they enticed Cobo to attack and make a fist of it, and gave us entertainment at the fighting for intermediate sprints in week 3, and added another level of subplot. On the negative side, the guy that won the race didn't complete the course as quickly as the guy that came 2nd so it wasn't a true reflection of time. Races in recent history seem to have shown that a lack of time bonuses has bred mostly conservative racing, while time bonuses have bred more exciting, but at times (especially on less selective parcours) perhaps slightly artificial, racing.

However, whether you are pro- or anti-bonifications, that is not the issue here. What's the issue is that some stages offer bonuses and some do not. Either there should be bonuses or there should not; there should be consistency.

It seems like they're trying to maintain the entertainment of the week 1 trading of the jersey in the flat stages (after all, with the Tour's lack of bonus seconds you sometimes get something like 2009, when Cancellara took the jersey and nobody had a chance to get it off him for a week), but without running the risk of time bonuses picked up in the mountains affecting the overall GC (like it did at the Vuelta). However, if racing with time bonuses feels a bit artificial, racing with time bonuses only partially applied is INCREDIBLY artificial.

exactly.

...

 

[The Hitch]

Great News. Let the real time decide.

Only it wont cos theres a monster ttt at the beginning.

At least time bonuses let the good riders get extra time for actually cycling well, over the ones that had gotten a head start.

 

[Bavarianrider]

Only it wont cos theres a monster ttt at the beginning.

At least time bonuses let the good riders get extra time for actually cycling well, over the ones that had gotten a head start.

30km is a monster
Plus, last time i checked, there was real time clocking in TTT

 

[theyoungest]

30km is a monster
Plus, last time i checked, there was real time clocking in TTT

Do you still live in the Ulle days?

 

[Bavarianrider]

Do you still live in the Ulle days?

Calling a 30km TT monster is beyond ridicilous, sorry.

 

[Skip Madness]

I don't see the problem. Everyone knows about it in advance. Better not to have time bonuses at all in my opinion, but it's a bit like when they suspended the last-3km-rule in the Castelfidardo stage last year. I don't have a problem with adapting the rules to specific stages.

 

[Polish]

I think a MTF should be handled the same as an ITT.
No drafting and no bonuses.
Just a man, a bike, a road, and a suitcase of courage.
Venga Venga Venga

 

[Benotti69]

<snip>

At least time bonuses let the good riders get extra time for actually cycling well, over the ones that had gotten a head start.

Don't know how you figure that. if there a time bonuses for the first 3 over the line on a mtf and their are 4 guys sprinting for the win who are the good riders?

I dont think any riders set out to ride badly in a GT, but if they dont ride aggressively from day 1 in order to conserve their bodies over 3 weeks of racing who can blame them?

I can answer that, they get blamed by armchair fans.

I'm all for no time bonuses an if their must be a TTT make it the very first stage not timed but just for the spectacle and to award the Leaders Jersey to the team who finishes 1st, Points to 2nd team and mountains jersey to 3rd team.

 

[Ryo Hazuki]

Only it wont cos theres a monster ttt at the beginning.

At least time bonuses let the good riders get extra time for actually cycling well, over the ones that had gotten a head start.

yeah 30 km is a monster ttt :facepalm:

 

[Pippo_San]

I don't see the problem. Everyone knows about it in advance. Better not to have time bonuses at all in my opinion, but it's a bit like when they suspended the last-3km-rule in the Castelfidardo stage last year. I don't have a problem with adapting the rules to specific stages.

+1

A race becomes artificial only when some kind of rule is applied with the riders not knowing it in advance (e.g. Astana win at Catalunya).
But when a certain rule is applied well before the start of the race, then it's all up to the riders decide which is the best way to interpret the course.
That's how it is and that's how it's always been, time bonuses or not.

 

[Eyeballs Out]

I don't know why the Giro and Vuelta (and the Tour for that matter) can't just have 10/6/4 bonuses like many of the one week races. That would be a sensible compromise. Something to play for but without it being a huge advantage

 

[42x16ss]

Don't know how you figure that. if there a time bonuses for the first 3 over the line on a mtf and their are 4 guys sprinting for the win who are the good riders?

The riders strong enough to make the final selection for the stage AND sprint well enough to get a place

 

[karlboss]

Seems odd, so does this suggest bonus seconds shouldn't determine the difference between 1 and 2, but should between 100 and 101? I can just see Cavendish go all out for the chance to move up on GC.

 

[gilbertador]

No this is really good it lets the hard stages be decidded by actual time and also says to pople if they want to make a surprise attack (Contador last year stage 8) they wont just get a 5 second gap they will get a bonus to encourage it, ie when the stage is hard enough to attack its not needed but they want to encourage attacking when the race is not particularly hard

 

[Master50]

I can hardly understand the discussion or more the surprise? No bonuses for mountains and TT.
Not an original idea. Been done and it worked fine. Could work again.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Time bonuses given a massive advantage to climbers who can sprint. A stage victory is its own rewards, GC should go to the rider who rides the course in the shortest time. Just look at last years Vuelta

meh, cycling is a sport i actually like watching because of attacks, and these bonus seconds just give yet another reason to attack, just a win, win situasion if you ask me

 

[greenedge]

This is good for Basso ( now he will not lose as much time in the mountains- in sprints ). It's bad that it is happening ( following the path of the TDF ) but maybe they wanted uniformity.

 

[karlboss]

meh, cycling is a sport i actually like watching because of attacks, and these bonus seconds just give yet another reason to attack, just a win, win situasion if you ask me

Do you think it would tempt Valverde to attack? Bonus seconds encourage a sprint in the last 200m, that's not the same and for some riders conservative riders up MTFs.

 

[Leopejo]

As long as there's interaction between the riders, that is, drafting, there's a place for time bonuses. These are no more artificial than, say, the whole peloton getting the same time, or all times being rounded to the nearest second: mass start cycling, thanks to its interaction-between-riders nature, has a more complicated relation with time than time trials or other sports.

[/philosophical mode off]

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

Do you think it would tempt Valverde to attack? Bonus seconds encourage a sprint in the last 200m, that's not the same and for some riders conservative riders up MTFs.

don't you think it will tempt EVERYONE ELSE to attack when they know Valverde is there to possibly take 20 sec from them just in a sprint? i would atlest think so...