Bavarianrider said:Nice, Wenzl 2nd
Wenzl is strong as an ox, but equally stupid. With more intelligence in the races, he would crush everyone.
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Wenzl is strong as an ox, but equally stupid. With more intelligence in the races, he would crush everyone.
Well his parents are milk farmers
You can spent your holidays on their farm
http://www.familienbauernhof-wenzl.de/bayern-erlebnisbauernhof-bayerischer-wald.html
You can spent your holidays on their farm
http://www.familienbauernhof-wenzl.de/bayern-erlebnisbauernhof-bayerischer-wald.html
Hey, BR, you are getting your wish of 15k mass start tomorrow. Can't really say I am looking forward to it.
roundabout said:
Welll, that's not really my wish. I'd prefer an individual start, for sure. I just think that a 15km mass start is better compared to a 50km mass start. If i had something to say there wouldn't be any mass starts at all, of course.
no disrespect for wenzl BR, he sure did well, but it was not a xc race...Bavarianrider said:Nice, Wenzl 2nd
i would call it anything - a bull stampede, a short track wrestling on snow, a circus - but a xc race.
an almost flat, unusually narrow course, visibly dirty shallow snow, an insane finishing turn. for almost ½ the course a skier v2-ing in front of the group could not be passed physically. at one point i saw something i never saw in a skating sprint - classic skating (poltoranin) trying to squeeze by.
the result - 10 falls (some commentators said it was the highest in xc skiing sprint history), half a dozen broken poles, almost a fist fight (between EISENLAUER and KRIUKOV) and no objectively strongest sprinters in the man’s final.
only now i realized why the norwegian and swedish ox avoided the mess.
If anyone wants to watch the Norwegian championships with women and mens relay 3*5 and 3*10km. the times are 10:15 and 12:45.
Most of the big name women are not taking part, but for the men, Northug is taking part. Perhaps he is good enough to anchor his team.
http://www.nrk.no/sport/sendeplan/
Select sport 4. It should not be geo restricted.
Most of the big name women are not taking part, but for the men, Northug is taking part. Perhaps he is good enough to anchor his team.
http://www.nrk.no/sport/sendeplan/
Select sport 4. It should not be geo restricted.
minutes ago ustiugov again demolished his completion in a skating sprint.
this time in a world u23 final...taken on its own merits, that was not a big surprise. the amazing part was the ease and the truly northug style (thankfully, without his eccentrics). playfully changing positions from last to first, going in a wide arc around everyone on a 15% long hill to emerge 10 meters ahead, slowing and accelerating while looking back, choosing different tactics in each of the 3 heats...
another thing that can’t escape a careful observer was his skating style. It is quite different from all his teammates, except perhaps kriukov‘s v2-ing uphill, and particularly northug’s. he does not show mad cadence when finishing or accelerating uphill, rather, a powerful, balanced, economical long-step skate 1 or skate 2 (depending on the terrain), where his upper body and shoulders take most of the load. he is about 190 cm tall and possesses awesome physical strength !
Aside from that I was slightly irritated by the eurosport commentators. They surely are competent chaps who know the sport, but they clearly misinterpreted some situations or over hyped others.
can ustiugov take northuh in sochi ?
i doubt he is ready yet perhaps next year) as so far, in their personal finishing fights (not necessarily in pure sprint heats ) northug was always on the top. But sochi has a very similar long steep final hill - like today - and one can be sure he had many more chances to practice on the sochi course than northug. also, it seems that the russian sprint team main coach is imaginative and tactically astute having shown a variety of unexpected sprint tactics on different euro courses - like petu racing from the back instead of the usual stampede.
As a classic skier though, ustiugov is still unremarkable - far behind at least 3-4 of his own senior teammates and particularly behind northug at the same age..
this time in a world u23 final...taken on its own merits, that was not a big surprise. the amazing part was the ease and the truly northug style (thankfully, without his eccentrics). playfully changing positions from last to first, going in a wide arc around everyone on a 15% long hill to emerge 10 meters ahead, slowing and accelerating while looking back, choosing different tactics in each of the 3 heats...
another thing that can’t escape a careful observer was his skating style. It is quite different from all his teammates, except perhaps kriukov‘s v2-ing uphill, and particularly northug’s. he does not show mad cadence when finishing or accelerating uphill, rather, a powerful, balanced, economical long-step skate 1 or skate 2 (depending on the terrain), where his upper body and shoulders take most of the load. he is about 190 cm tall and possesses awesome physical strength !
Aside from that I was slightly irritated by the eurosport commentators. They surely are competent chaps who know the sport, but they clearly misinterpreted some situations or over hyped others.
can ustiugov take northuh in sochi ?
i doubt he is ready yet perhaps next year) as so far, in their personal finishing fights (not necessarily in pure sprint heats ) northug was always on the top. But sochi has a very similar long steep final hill - like today - and one can be sure he had many more chances to practice on the sochi course than northug. also, it seems that the russian sprint team main coach is imaginative and tactically astute having shown a variety of unexpected sprint tactics on different euro courses - like petu racing from the back instead of the usual stampede.
As a classic skier though, ustiugov is still unremarkable - far behind at least 3-4 of his own senior teammates and particularly behind northug at the same age..
I'd absolutely love to see Ustiugov in full swing in this years Olympics already he's got an absolutely staggering turn of speed when he's on form.
Imagine an Olympic sprint final with Northug, Ustiugov, Musgrave (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrYExfReoyo), Petukhov all in their best form going head to head...
Imagine an Olympic sprint final with Northug, Ustiugov, Musgrave (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrYExfReoyo), Petukhov all in their best form going head to head...
python said:
Good observations, I agree he has been impressive. I doubt he can match Northug in a sprint after a long race, but in the sprint event, he is absolutely capable, though I have a hunch his stamina is still not good enough.
Which Eurosport language were you watching?
Anyway, I'm enjoying watching the U23's an Juniors. So many weird little mistakes.
Did you see the heat were the two Swedes were heading for a 1-2 and then took out each other? That was so tragic it was funny.
For anyone interested, here are the event schedules:
http://www.fiemme2014.com/en/calendar.php?date=20140130
Just click on the date and see whats happening.
I don't know about any streams or anything, since I have the races on NRK, SVT and Eurosport.
...15 minutes to the start of the u23 15 km, so i will respond briefly.ToreBear said:Good observations, I agree he has been impressive. I doubt he can match Northug in a sprint after a long race, but in the sprint event, he is absolutely capable, though I have a hunch his stamina is still not good enough.
Which Eurosport language were you watching?
Anyway, I'm enjoying watching the U23's an Juniors. So many weird little mistakes.
Did you see the heat were the two Swedes were heading for a 1-2 and then took out each other? That was so tragic it was funny.
For anyone interested, here are the event schedules:
http://www.fiemme2014.com/en/calendar.php?date=20140130
Just click on the date and see whats happening.
I don't know about any streams or anything, since I have the races on NRK, SVT and Eurosport.
...no, i missed that heat with the sweds taking each other out. i watched 'on the move' while taking care of various home 'obligations'
...it was a stream in english, eurosport 2 iirc, however, i often grab any stream in any available euro language and rarely have trouble following the commentators.
...regarding northug vs. ustiugov endurance, i mean in the sense you brought up - sprinting after a long race - you have a point but i'd supplement it with the following observation. ustiugov, unlike northug seems NOT a born sprinter like northug or petu or eric brandsdahl..he is born a bear in the bear country. thus being only 22 he is still developing his stamina. as to his spinting endurace - i mean in the events between 2.5 to 4 something minutes, he has proven to be a natural monster. for example, he was the fastest russian in the sochi skating sprints (7th ?) in the field that included kriukov and all their best pure sprinters. he, to my surprise because i hoped fossli will give him a run for the money, ran the last heat with the same speed he wont the qualifiers in which fossli was 2nd ...etc etc. the bear recovers very well, at altitudes included, because he apparently has huge aerobic engine - at least equal to northugs. his main disadvantages now is that he is even heavier that petter - 85 kg and needs to fireup his jets from further away...
did anyone save the profiles from last year's cc races in Sochi? The FIS seems to have deleted all profiles when they updated their website, and the new ones for the olympics aren't up yet anywhere as far as I can see
skating sprint loop, men -1809 msearch said:
classic loop in a skiathlon -3750 m
skating loop in a skiathlon - 3750 m
it is more than likely that all sochi competitions in both styles and all distances will consist of some whole or fractional multiple of the above loops.
the finish at the stadium, though, will certainly be the same as above.
python said:
Ok, well I was watching SVT. NRK had the B team with a mumbler I had to strain to understand.
To my pleasant surprise Mathias Fredriksson was the expert with the regular guy. He was very good, the usual expert is good too, but sometimes has problems when it comes to being a neutral expert vs. an expert cheerleader.
It's usually entertaining, though sometimes it gets a little annoying.I think SVT has a good streaming service(assumption), so I'm surprised you didn't use that. You are a Swede in Sweden right? If it's secret, don't answer. I'm just wondering if I've gotten my own assumptions erroneously labeled as facts in my mind.
As for the English Eurosport guys, I don't see them as experts, they are more experts in relation to the English speaking audience. For those who have access to Norwegian/Swedish the level is not comparable. Also they have a language barrier in relation to getting facts wrong, or not at all(I suffer from this with the Finns, and Russians
).For example yesterday the commentator said the Weng twins are Heidi Wengs sisters, while they are in fact not related IIRC. Martine Ek Hagen though, is Heidi Wengs cousin and they belong to the same club. Assuming the Wengs are related to Heidi Weng is perfectly sensible, since its a rare name in Norway, but it's not correct.
For the situational understanding, I think they are more biathlon guys IIRC. It can be frustrating listening to them sometimes, but they are doing their best, and they seem to be learning.
For example the comment about recovery time difference between the two semifinals is very accurate.
Something that the Norwegian coach wants to change:
http://www.nrk.no/sport/slik-vil-norge-endre-sprintreglene-1.11489084
I don't know what the alternative would look like though. It was kinda cool the way Krogh hit the brakes at the finish line though.
Anyway I sometimes wonder whether I should email them and help them out with facts and situational understanding. But I'm just too Lazy and only watch them when I watch the races again for details I might have missed, and that could be day's, weeks or months after the race actually took place. (I watched some parts of yesterdays race again today, I didn't notice anything in the parts I re-watched(except about the twins), though I might just have ignored other comments being out of place since I'm used to their mistakes.
python said:
I obviously have never tried it so I'm just theorizing based on the Norwegian commentators pointing it out so often when Northug races: I think it has something to do with the quickness disappearing after skiing in the slow tempo for a while, the muscles get a different kind of tired than in the sprints, who are constantly at max effort. But that's just a theory.
I'm not a big believer in nature vs. Nurture when it comes to skiing, In cycling nature is very important, but skiing has so many variables in regards to how you use your body most efficiently.
For example, I think Northug developed his accelerations when competing with his younger brother. Petter is older and would ski without poles while Thomas had them to make the competition more fair. Also the accelerations aren't set, he constantly practices it while training for longer distances. I have no idea about his o2 or stuff like that, but that increases with training, so I would assume high 80s- lower 90s.
Bransdal I think has an o2 around that same number. So why is he a sprinter? My guess is he found he was very good in sprinting when he was younger, and has focused his training on that. Though he is not that bad at distance either. If he focused on that, who knows how good he could be. But there is also lactate tolerance to complicate things. With Hattestad it is often pointed out that he has an extreme lactate tolerance. Perhaps his o2 is not so good? I dont know. Of course that could be an argument for the nurture side of the equasion, though how much is training a factor in development of a high lactate threshold? I have no idea.
So I view Northug and Ustiugov's differences more as a result of nurture than nature. But I certainly agree that Ustiugov will improve. But I have a hunch it's not enough yet. I might be proven wrong in Sochi, since he is young he could make huge improvements quickly.
As for yesterdays race, remember what the eurosport "expert" correctly pointed out during the final, Ustiugov had about 5 more minutes of recovery time. But, In the event yesterday, I think Ustiugov would have beaten Fossli regardless, though it might not have looked so dominant as it did. Fossli has a lot more training to do to get the necessary stamina to be able to race three heats consistently. Right now I think he can if he is in absolute top shape and has a good day.
python said:skating sprint loop, men -1809 m
classic loop in a skiathlon -3750 m
skating loop in a skiathlon - 3750 m
it is more than likely that all sochi competitions in both styles and all distances will consist of some whole or fractional multiple of the above loops.
the finish at the stadium, though, will certainly be the same as above.
Nice and clear profiles, I like it.
I think there was talk of some tweaking of the course, so it might not be exactly the same this year. Though I doubt they would chop of a hill, so I don't expect anything drastic.
sometimes i do, but the answer is simple - i currently reside in n. america. though i usually avoid personal questions, but will say i grew up in northern europe in the house full of skis and hunting gear. guns did not stick but xc skis did and remained my life-long passion. though i don't live in the most appropriate climate now, i roller ski 9 months a year. there is hardly a workout in local parks that some locals or tourists don't train their cameras at a strange 'moving telegraph pole' (i am the size of danny richardsson) on strange in-line skates with poles...ToreBear said:
quite early in my formation and professional years i left home and bobbed all over europe (even lived in eastern europe). then, personal and occupational circumstances landed us here and, to be frank, i am longing to go back in few years. not that i am unhappy, but i gradually grew sick of how people treat each other and how artificial and disingenuous (some, but numerous enough) people and their words and deeds can be.
.........
i have may thought and ideas on the subject. perhaps will share some later, for now let review this precious clip…it tells us everything about northug’s special gift for finishing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_orwNRaD5d0
Val di Fiemme, 2013. 4x10 relay last leg. northug, halfvarsson and ustiugov dog fight in the last 500-700 meters (i intentionally don’t look at the italian b/c he did not matter for a podium)
1:39:47
they’ve just completed pushing off and started the last before last downhill. Petter was 1.5m ahead of halfvarsson and ustiugov was further 5 m behind (1:40:00)
they are gliding down.…clearly the swede’s skis work better (and he takes a better line), and only 18 seconds later he is ahead of petter by good 5m while ustiugov practically caught up with northug (1:40:18.8). this supports the notion that northug did not have better skis that day….
here was where northug won the race - his ability to stick with the best uphill and besting the best at the finish. …
in the next 13 seconds (1:40:31) he closed the gap to the swede by furious v2-ing on a short flat section, then he tried to go around the swede while climbing, but halfvarsson smartly ‘closed the door‘ by a sharp swing to the left (1:40:43.7) and he was still ahead of northug by 3-4 meter following a sharp right-hander off a bridge (ustiugov was behind petter 5-6 meters) - time: 1:40:57.2.
the next 15 seconds they are gliding down towards the finish with northug seemingly managing to take one extra pole kick than others to increase his distance from ustiugov and get closer to the swede.
by 1:41:22 following a brief free skate, they have started a full power dash…from then on to the finish (about 14 seconds) i counted 20 pole swings by northug, 17 by halfvarsson and 16 by ustiugov.
there was displayed his advantage - the special ability to use poles. specifically, an extra kick while others used gliding for recovery and developing 15-20% higher cadence with equal or superior kick force. all done in the last 100-150 meters.
This was the essence of his dominance: 95% chance he’ll finish better than 90%.
there are only 3 ways to best northug at the finish:
1. He’s sub-optimum - happened but not often
2. Simply outdo him at double poling (kriukov in val di fiemme)
3. Get a gap sufficiently far from the line that can not be closed. Say, 30-40m with 150 to go (vyleg once this year)
python said:
Oh well, I'll just assume you are from a snowy cabin in the woods then.
The US seems to have had all the snow and cold Europe has lacked this winter, so your snow situation this year at leas shouldn't have been so bady.
I can imagine the looks. If you want to have some fun, you could go out wearing speedos. People might be more concerned about looking away than taking pictures.
Yes, american culture is a bit "different". The americans I have met are often spooky nice to me as a norwegian, but it's all just form more than content.
But I have never been there, so It could just be stereotypes.
python said:
That is very interesting. I have never thought of it in terms of poling cadence. I remember a year or two ago there was a lot of talk about his poling technique. He keeps his elbows high and only has a "short stroke" when poling. In this short stroke he gets a lot of power and, it is probably someting that aides his cadence.
I know the guys in ski classics are extreme in their use and innovation of double poling, and Fredrik Aukland showed some interesting analysis of different methods. He is btw, Colognas personal coach as well as the coach of his brothers team.
So watching Cologna when he comes back might see another way of achieving similar results.
When I look at Northugs speed, I see his ability to keep up his technique regardless of how tired he is. His cadence though, I seem to remember is lower when the races are longer and more tiering. For example that last leg in Val de Fiemme, was made at walking speed for most of the race(that's why Ustiugov was so close btw).
But that was very interesting, I will try to look more at poling cadence.
Annyway today it's the skiathlon for Juniors. Skiathlon is my favorite event, and tomorrow it will be for the U23. Heavenly bliss.
ToreBear said:.......
Annyway today it's the skiathlon for Juniors. Skiathlon is my favorite event, and tomorrow it will be for the U23. Heavenly bliss.
that was a very interesting race...as in seniors, it was not likely that the race would be decided in the classic leg, though, not for the lack of trying.
awesomely difficult course - clearly suited to a superior climber...the 2 russians mixing each other was dramatic. i have to say, chebotkin deserved to sprint against augdal rather than hoel, still, i am not sure he'd win. the gap would be smaller if any, but eiric's rock steady technique tells me he spared enough for a sprint if he had to. is he good at the finish any way ?
the differences in classic styles were also interesting, even between the members of the same teams...some looked stressing grip wax while others seemed to rely more on gliding...
i expected more of svensson.
python said:
It certainly was, and the girls race as well. It's nice to see these younger less polished athletes and also check at what age they are at compared to those around them. And so many different body types and techniques propelling them with some valuing glide/vs grip differently. As to the mens race, it was a very tough course. But the snow conditions probably also played a large part.
I watched the race on SVT and Mathias Fredriksson thought Augdal would have won annyway due to a better glide, just that it would have been a sprint finish. I also think he looked more technically complete than the Russian, which might also give the impression his skis are better than they are. But to me they looked really good, and better than his teammate Hoels skis.
I have no idea how good a finisher he is. But I also have no idea how the Russians finish is. Perhaps we will find out in a later race.
I'm not sure what hapend with the russian accident. To me it looked like Chervotkin(silver, bib2) caused it himself and came to a halt and Grigoriev(Bib7) got tangled up with him. I was following Grigoriev because his technique in the freestyle looked horrible. But it seemed to work for him, unless he uses a huge engine to compensate of course.
Did you notice him before the accident?
It seems 2 was behind 7, though I don't know how happened.
http://www.nrk.no/sport/videoklipp/russisk-hjelperytter-ikke-fullt-sa-hjelpsom-1.11510811
But nice teamwork!
kingjr said:
Thanks! Yes bad luck indeed. Reminds me of the two Swedes taking each other out in the Sprint.
Perhaps some other country will suffer next, perhaps even....
Norway.
i missed the actual accident scene...when i got back to the screen i saw them desperately trying to disentangle. then i realized chevrotkin also broke a pole and did not get a replacement right away.ToreBear said:.....
Did you notice him before the accident?
It seems 2 was behind 7, though I don't know how happened.
http://www.nrk.no/sport/videoklipp/russisk-hjelperytter-ikke-fullt-sa-hjelpsom-1.11510811
But nice teamwork!
whatever the sequence and whoever was at fault is probably not important, this is part of the business in ANY skating race.
more interesting would be to know if the incident had not happened, had he had a chance to take augdal ?
when i estimate the number of seconds he lost on the ground, then add the time he had to spend to go around people and chase, it is roughly equal to the time he lost at the finish - which means there likely would not have been a gap and they'd have to decide the gold in a personal sprint. my bets would be on augdal. but this is based on a superficial observation of his flawless skate. the 'guts factor' seemed to favour chervotkin - he literally buried himself at the finish to pass everyone...
more importantly, tomorrow is toblach's 15k classic tt, the same exact format they will run at the olympics. as far as i can tell from the start list, the men's field is loaded and only olsson is absent of all the classic's superstars. it is also the 1st wc start for cologna senior after the injury. another intriguing factor is that the race elevation is very similar to sochi's, so the final results may roughly indicate the finishing order in sochi.
...and there is another funny little factoid (typical of the incomprehensible way the russians do business)...the race was supposed to decide if either cherno or legkov will fill the 4th and only vacancy left for their contingent in the sochi 15k. suddenly, they have entered 4 more people at the last moment, as if they wanted to screw reto's splinter group - cherno and legkov.
that may result in extra motivation for the 2...i would not be surprised if legkov podiums.
python said:
I rewatched it and it was Chervotkin who came too close from behind and stepped on Grigorievs skis. Grigoriev fell forwards and got his pole stuck under a ski, so it broke. So Chervotkin did'nt really get that delayed, since his equipment was whole.
Augdal seemed much better technichally, more racing smart, and I have a hunch he would have something left for the sprint. I agree he looked in control with energy in reserve.
So much to watch today.
The question is how hard the Toblach course is, and the snow/weather conditions are compared to Sochi. It should as you say, give a good indication of where they are in their form buildup.The Russian skiing federation would make a good soap opera.
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