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Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

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Will you f***ing stop with this sh*t already? She does plenty of pulling in her races; she's no Gerrans, not even close. I'm out of here. Between you and f***ing BullSh*tFan22 this forum is unbearable. Jeezus h christ.
I was talking about this specific race, where she spent 18,5km taking no wind and if Johaug wasn't there, it was a small group with Diggins sitting on the back of it catching a ride the whole way. I wasn't slating her racing last week (in fact, you even praised my analysis of the finale around how she was able to take advantage of Sundling's tactical errors at the end).

That was literally the first post I've made that was negative about her this season, but you've gone from 0 to 100 real fast.
 
I was talking about this specific race, where she spent 18,5km taking no wind and if Johaug wasn't there, it was a small group with Diggins sitting on the back of it catching a ride the whole way.
Basically the Norwegians in that group did the same to be fair, first they all were on the tail of Johaug, then Ebba was pulling basically all the time with Weng working a few very short periods. Slind didnt do anything. To be fair to Diggins I think she “took more wind” in the classic part then Weng in the whole race. If Johaug wasnt there the race probably wouldve been Ebba leading for 18 km and then both Weng and Diggins would’ve dropped her in the same climb. I don’t think it’s fair to talk about one specific athlete Gerransing when it’s a group of 4 and there is another athlete that is definitely doing less work (Slind) and one barely doing more (Weng) and the third is doing 90% of it. If the other three all was working I would’ve understood it more.
 
Basically the Norwegians in that group did the same to be fair, first they all were on the tail of Johaug, then Ebba was pulling basically all the time with Weng working a few very short periods. Slind didnt do anything. To be fair to Diggins I think she “took more wind” in the classic part then Weng in the whole race. If Johaug wasnt there the race probably wouldve been Ebba leading for 18 km and then both Weng and Diggins would’ve dropped her in the same climb. I don’t think it’s fair to talk about one specific athlete Gerransing when it’s a group of 4 and there is another athlete that is definitely doing less work (Slind) and one barely doing more (Weng) and the third is doing 90% of it. If the other three all was working I would’ve understood it more.
Problem is, with Norway having Johaug up front, you can buy that they may have had team reasons for it (it's less common here but it does happen as we know). Ebba was taking the majority of the wind as you say. Diggins being in 4th place for most of the skate leg especially (which you would usually expect to be her better part of the race, although her classic is hugely improved over the last couple of years as we know), as well as being conspicuous by being in a completely different-coloured suit and the yellow bib, draws more attention.

The only time other than her attack to the 18,6km marker which - eventually - secured the podium that I saw Diggins on the front was when she was picking up the bonus trophy points.
 
Problem is, with Norway having Johaug up front, you can buy that they may have had team reasons for it (it's less common here but it does happen as we know).
Taking about team tactic is purely theoretical in this group I think. It would surprise me if Slind has spent more than a total of 2 kilometer in the front of a (good) group in her entire World Cup career, and Weng have spent the last 10 years following other skiers, while Ebba on the other hand always is trying to force the pace. With or without Johaug, all experience says Weng and Slind would’ve been sitting in anyway.
 
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Taking about team tactic is purely theoretical in this group I think. It would surprise me if Slind has spent more than a total of 2 kilometer in the front of a (good) group in her entire World Cup career, and Weng have spent the last 10 years following other skiers, while Ebba on the other hand always is trying to force the pace. With or without Johaug, all experience says Weng and Slind would’ve been sitting in anyway.
Even so, it doesn't mean that Diggins wasn't using that tactic, or that we can't voice dissatisfaction at an unappealing or unexciting tactic being deployed. And as she should be expected to beat all of those three in a sprint (Weng the only one that could even remotely contend on a normal day) and was content to be towed along especially once all expectation of catching Johaug had been given up on, that means she's the one I described as the Gerrans in the group. She's also the woman that - for the time being at least, Sundling may usurp this from her in time - is benefiting the most from the Klæboization of the distance courses on the calendar in recent years, because of that ability to sprint at the end of those distance races and her high level of recovery meaning she can be at least moderately competitive in most sprints and accumulate points in those where the likes of Johaug and Andersson cannot, too.

After all, while boring, at least Gerrans actually succeeded with his tactic. Slind not working is more like Enric Mas' patented Lombardia tactic of maximising passivity today to minimise gains tomorrow.
 
Elvira Öberg building an interesting lead in the biathlon world cup, she is by far strongest skier at the moment so maybe this is the season when she finally wins the overall.

Preuß with really good performances after her sickness last week, the Frenchwomen still a bit far from their best unlike the men that are flying at the moment with Perrot getting himself in the yellow bib.

Tandrevold missed the mass-start today and will also skip Hochfilzen due to her heart problem.
 
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Elvira Öberg building an interesting lead in the biathlon world cup, she is by far strongest skier at the moment so maybe this is the season when she finally wins the overall.

Preuß with really good performances after her sickness last week, the Frenchwomen still a bit far from their best unlike the men that are flying at the moment with Perrot getting himself in the yellow bib.

Tandrevold missed the mass-start today and will also skip Hochfilzen due to her heart problem.
You never know with Elvira, the Swedes traditionally start the season at peak since most years the calendar starts in Östersund. While she will no doubt be one of the fastest skiers season-long, whether she can remain as standout on speed beyond December remains to be seen. Preuß likewise started last season in super form, but as ever staying healthy is the problem for her. I think she's only got two seasons where she's stayed healthy throughout, 2014-15 when she won the Mass Start globe, and 2020-21 under COVID rules when she ended up 3rd in the overall World Cup.

The young French women (Michelon, Richard) seem to be at their best (other young skiers like Botet, Bertrand and Galmace-Paulin are flying at the IBU Cup too), but the established core members like Simon, Braisaz-Bouchet and Jeanmonnot are clearly a bit below. The young Germans are also flying, it's just that Tannheimer's the only one that's remembered to hit the targets as well as skiing fast. Norway's women look a bit rudderless without Tandrevold, nobody in the top half of the results today, and Arnekleiv only qualified on last year's performance as she's been atrocious so far in Kontiolahti. Knotten is kind of Norway's answer to Vanessa Voigt, she'll be solid at least, Randby has been a pleasant surprise and Kirkeeide has a lot of potential, but it's so strange to see the team as a whole so anonymous.
 
Because when bolshunov used to out the pedal to the metal he was the best thing since sliced bread.
but mainly because hating someone because you don't like how the ski is kind of pathetic. Same as when Froome used to get stick.
Johaug was a lot more popular when Kowalczyk and Bjørgen were around, because it was more like the reason Bolshunov had his fans. People tend not to enjoy races that they find boring. This manifests itself most often, looking at the responses in this thread, in the dislike against the likes of Klæbo (and before him Northug) for the mass start races where nothing happens and every attack gets crushed to allow a final sprint. Where racing becomes formulaic, athletes who interfere with those formula tend to be relatively popular, even if other aspects of their personality may be objectionable. I'd anticipate all of us on the board are cycling fans, so obviously it doesn't take much explaining to say why riders like Aleksandr Vinokourov or Thomas Voeckler might be more popular with viewers than Simon Gerrans.

Johaug is the opposite problem. While she does break from the formula, for years after the deterioration and retirements of Kowalczyk and Bjørgen, there was just nobody even remotely as strong as her, such that most distance races devolved into her just running away from everyone a few minutes into the race and never being seen again. Do that a couple of times and it's heroic, but if you do it every time, people swiftly become bored because it's no longer a question of whether Therese will win, but a question of how much Therese will win by. Martin Johnsrud Sundby used to have the same problem - at first popular as an alternative to formulaic, conservative races, followed by a backlash as it became too easy for him and the races became stale and predictable.

Formula One is the best sport to illustrate this, because the quality of the car affects results so much; often the best drivers start off being extremely popular, outperforming their machinery and introducing variety to the results, but once they get into the best cars, they start to get pole positions and win races easily and bore people. People forget, for example, how popular Sebastian Vettel was when he first broke into the sport in the BMW and then the Toro Rosso, adding excitement in the midfield and upsetting the established order of the time, before several years of Red Bull having the best car and him just driving away from everybody for two hours every other week made the spectacle unwatchable.

Now, Therese hasn't really done that since her return, and even with today there were other factors at play. It took until the very end of the classic leg for her to really break away, she only had a few seconds at the changeover, and the gap grew very quickly because nobody would work with Andersson, so I don't think we can draw too much conclusion from today's race in isolation. But I can imagine that some people might react negatively to seeing Therese ski away to a comfortable solo victory because it reminds them of the bad old days.
 
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Johaug was a lot more popular when Kowalczyk and Bjørgen were around, because it was more like the reason Bolshunov had his fans. People tend not to enjoy races that they find boring. This manifests itself most often, looking at the responses in this thread, in the dislike against the likes of Klæbo (and before him Northug) for the mass start races where nothing happens and every attack gets crushed to allow a final sprint. Where racing becomes formulaic, athletes who interfere with those formula tend to be relatively popular, even if other aspects of their personality may be objectionable. I'd anticipate all of us on the board are cycling fans, so obviously it doesn't take much explaining to say why riders like Aleksandr Vinokourov or Thomas Voeckler might be more popular with viewers than Simon Gerrans.

Johaug is the opposite problem. While she does break from the formula, for years after the deterioration and retirements of Kowalczyk and Bjørgen, there was just nobody even remotely as strong as her, such that most distance races devolved into her just running away from everyone a few minutes into the race and never being seen again. Do that a couple of times and it's heroic, but if you do it every time, people swiftly become bored because it's no longer a question of whether Therese will win, but a question of how much Therese will win by. Martin Johnsrud Sundby used to have the same problem - at first popular as an alternative to formulaic, conservative races, followed by a backlash as it became too easy for him and the races became stale and predictable.

Formula One is the best sport to illustrate this, because the quality of the car affects results so much; often the best drivers start off being extremely popular, outperforming their machinery and introducing variety to the results, but once they get into the best cars, they start to get pole positions and win races easily and bore people. People forget, for example, how popular Sebastian Vettel was when he first broke into the sport in the BMW and then the Toro Rosso, adding excitement in the midfield and upsetting the established order of the time, before several years of Red Bull having the best car and him just driving away from everybody for two hours every other week made the spectacle unwatchable.

Now, Therese hasn't really done that since her return, and even with today there were other factors at play. It took until the very end of the classic leg for her to really break away, she only had a few seconds at the changeover, and the gap grew very quickly because nobody would work with Andersson, so I don't think we can draw too much conclusion from today's race in isolation. But I can imagine that some people might react negatively to seeing Therese ski away to a comfortable solo victory because it reminds them of the bad old days.
Agree. And, there might be a few other reasons concerning the dislike of TJ and MJS for the ones who have read a certain thread in the clinic.
 
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And yet most of those people would welcome the Russians back with open arms.

Bolshunov was by far the most tested skier in the World. And if anyone wouldn't have the WADA protection it's him. He even openly invited anyone to come and observe his trainings...

Did he dope? We'll never know, but if any country has a doping history in XC in the recent times it's Norway. And surprise, surprise they often sweep the podiums (bar female sprint).
 
We'll never know, but if any country has a doping history in XC in the recent times it's
first and foremost Austria and Estonia after the Seefeld World Champs...

I'm very critical of Johaug and definitively thinks it was the right desicion to ban her for such a long time and I also hate her coming back to the sport. Her story sounded strange, her beahviour in the first press conference was childish and embarrasing and to me the athletes responsibility for forbidden substances is clear and there was never a question whether she deserved a ban or not.

Sundby deserved a longer ban as well instead of his two month suspension. There are rules for limiting asthma medicine for a reason and he definetively broke those rules, but his case is definitively different than Johaugs case in my eyes and less serious than an anabole steroid or blood doping like EPO as the substance is legal and that he before and after the doping case could use the same substance without problem. I know that the Norwegian use of astmathic medicine is very questionable and a definitive grey zone that many people in Norwegian sport has a big problem with. I know top Norwegian athletes (not CC skiers) that has been offered the opportunity to get a TUE for asthma medicine by doctors at Olympiatoppen because they have found some limitations in the breathing that points towards the same problems that asthmatic people have, but still being quite clearly not asthmatic.

I think asthma medicine is definitively one point where WADA should look over the rules and the process of who can get TUE. It's not only a Norwegian "problem", as SVT wrote some years ago, around half of Swedish medals won in Cross Country skiing between 1992-2018 was won by athletes that were open about their asthma. A finnish study shows that also in Finnish cross country skiing there is a huge propotion of asthmatic skiers.

However, no matter how much one discuss the use of asthma medicine in skiing (and in that discussion it's definitively fair to point towards Norway and the other nordic countries), I dont think that remove the correctness in pointing the finger towards other countries when it comes to the bigger and heavier doping scandals. The doping scandal in Seefeld was one thing, obvious blood doping. Austria has generally had a lot of this types of cases, Johannes Duerr, Harald Wurm, the Torino2006 case etc...

When people are pointing towards Russia one have to accept that it is a fair thing to do. In defence of Russian athletes one can point the fingers towards Norway as much as one want, it doesnt change the basic fact that the history of doping in Russian XC is much bigger and clearer than the Norwegian history. As late as in 2007-2010 there was a big wave of Russian skiers being caught for EPO/blood doping. Shiriayev, Dementiev, Tschepalova, Sidko and Nina Rysina were all caught for heavy doping violations. In the same period there were also some big cases in biathlon where Iureva tested positive for EPO both in 2007 and 2014, and Jaroshenko who was caught for EPO in 2009. So even when we completely overlook the controversy about the Sochi Olympics the number of Russian athletes caught in doping cases in this period paints a picture of a massive doping problem in Russian skiing and biathlon.

Then if one wants it one can always claim that Norwegian skiers over many decades has been avoiding being caught. We dont know what potentially has happened, and therefore one can only speculate. But that doesnt change the fact that we know about widespread Russian doping in the past, and there is no question or discussion around most of the Russian doping problem from the past.

And in the last few years a couple of half anonymous Russian skiers has been banned for minor doping violations during the international ban, for example Sergei Volkov and Artem Nikolaev who both got shorter bans by Rusada. Especially Volkovs case is similar to Sundby's case, both used a substance they were allowed to use but Sundby used too much and Volkov used a substance not allowed in competitions too close to competitions. Volkov only got 6 months, which I think would've been a fair penalty also for Sundby instead of his 2 months ban. With Nikolaev I dont know the details, but he got 1 year and not 2, so probably not a heavy violation.

When it comes to Bolshunov it's fair to threat him as an athlete that currently has no strong ties to questionable things, more than being coached by Juri Borodavko which was suspended for 2 years by the Russian Ski Federation after the doping case of his athlete Dementiev. Guilt by association is not fair, but questioning him is fair only because of his coach.

So to summarize to your comment:
I think it's right to point out that Bolshunov's not been banned or that there are no hot leads pointing towards him being a cheater - but it's wrong to defend him (or other russian skiers) by pointing the fingers to Norway and claim that they are then number 1 dopers in XC.
 
first and foremost Austria and Estonia after the Seefeld World Champs...

I'm very critical of Johaug and definitively thinks it was the right desicion to ban her for such a long time and I also hate her coming back to the sport. Her story sounded strange, her beahviour in the first press conference was childish and embarrasing and to me the athletes responsibility for forbidden substances is clear and there was never a question whether she deserved a ban or not.

Sundby deserved a longer ban as well instead of his two month suspension. There are rules for limiting asthma medicine for a reason and he definetively broke those rules, but his case is definitively different than Johaugs case in my eyes and less serious than an anabole steroid or blood doping like EPO as the substance is legal and that he before and after the doping case could use the same substance without problem. I know that the Norwegian use of astmathic medicine is very questionable and a definitive grey zone that many people in Norwegian sport has a big problem with. I know top Norwegian athletes (not CC skiers) that has been offered the opportunity to get a TUE for asthma medicine by doctors at Olympiatoppen because they have found some limitations in the breathing that points towards the same problems that asthmatic people have, but still being quite clearly not asthmatic.

I think asthma medicine is definitively one point where WADA should look over the rules and the process of who can get TUE. It's not only a Norwegian "problem", as SVT wrote some years ago, around half of Swedish medals won in Cross Country skiing between 1992-2018 was won by athletes that were open about their asthma. A finnish study shows that also in Finnish cross country skiing there is a huge propotion of asthmatic skiers.

However, no matter how much one discuss the use of asthma medicine in skiing (and in that discussion it's definitively fair to point towards Norway and the other nordic countries), I dont think that remove the correctness in pointing the finger towards other countries when it comes to the bigger and heavier doping scandals. The doping scandal in Seefeld was one thing, obvious blood doping. Austria has generally had a lot of this types of cases, Johannes Duerr, Harald Wurm, the Torino2006 case etc...

When people are pointing towards Russia one have to accept that it is a fair thing to do. In defence of Russian athletes one can point the fingers towards Norway as much as one want, it doesnt change the basic fact that the history of doping in Russian XC is much bigger and clearer than the Norwegian history. As late as in 2007-2010 there was a big wave of Russian skiers being caught for EPO/blood doping. Shiriayev, Dementiev, Tschepalova, Sidko and Nina Rysina were all caught for heavy doping violations. In the same period there were also some big cases in biathlon where Iureva tested positive for EPO both in 2007 and 2014, and Jaroshenko who was caught for EPO in 2009. So even when we completely overlook the controversy about the Sochi Olympics the number of Russian athletes caught in doping cases in this period paints a picture of a massive doping problem in Russian skiing and biathlon.

Then if one wants it one can always claim that Norwegian skiers over many decades has been avoiding being caught. We dont know what potentially has happened, and therefore one can only speculate. But that doesnt change the fact that we know about widespread Russian doping in the past, and there is no question or discussion around most of the Russian doping problem from the past.

And in the last few years a couple of half anonymous Russian skiers has been banned for minor doping violations during the international ban, for example Sergei Volkov and Artem Nikolaev who both got shorter bans by Rusada. Especially Volkovs case is similar to Sundby's case, both used a substance they were allowed to use but Sundby used too much and Volkov used a substance not allowed in competitions too close to competitions. Volkov only got 6 months, which I think would've been a fair penalty also for Sundby instead of his 2 months ban. With Nikolaev I dont know the details, but he got 1 year and not 2, so probably not a heavy violation.

When it comes to Bolshunov it's fair to threat him as an athlete that currently has no strong ties to questionable things, more than being coached by Juri Borodavko which was suspended for 2 years by the Russian Ski Federation after the doping case of his athlete Dementiev. Guilt by association is not fair, but questioning him is fair only because of his coach.

So to summarize to your comment:
I think it's right to point out that Bolshunov's not been banned or that there are no hot leads pointing towards him being a cheater - but it's wrong to defend him (or other russian skiers) by pointing the fingers to Norway and claim that they are then number 1 dopers in XC.

You’re right, it doesn’t absolve the Russians of wrongdoing, but almost 70% of all Norwegian Olympic medals since 1992 have been won by those that ‘suffer’ from asthma, and back in 2016-2018 a number of reports have come out saying that the Norwegian Olympic committee gives asthma meds to non-asthmatics and even those that don’t/didn’t have asthma were given meds.

Marit Bjørgen back in the early 2010’s was a name that came prominently and her autobiography later stated ‘some trouble.’ I am not going to get into on this section, just pointing it out. Then there’s Sundby as well…

We would need to change over to the ‘other’ section.

That’s all I’m gonna write here.
 
Isn't that the Armstrong defence?

Like I said, I don't know if ANY of them dope or not. My personal opinion, as an amateur cyclist, is that every professional athlete takes something. I've spoken to multiple olympic medalists from my country. At various points in their careers they took pills they had no idea what they were for. Margin between athletes at such a high level are very minimal, so every % counts, is it cheating? I'd have to say no, as at the end of the day it's their bodies and minds that perform those astonishing results.

So to summarize it, yes, I'd welcome Russians with my open arm back to XC World Cup.
 
So Johaug is racing Davos, but Skistad, Heidi Weng, Andersson and Kalsson are all skipping that one. Interesting to see that Ree gets another chance on the men's side. Even if he's better in skating he's a real distance specialist, so I can understand why they are bringing him to a 20km individual start.

Italy isn't bringing Gismondi (she wants to do the TdS and is better in skating), but Federica Cassol (who won the Fesa Cup sprint), Ticco (same), Carollo, who won the 10km classic and was 2nd in both the sprint and the 10km skating and Nadine Laurent, who is mainly there for the team sprint and not too bad in distance races.

Mocellini still hasn't recovered from that crash and his gf Franchi is also siting this one out because of health related problems and poor form.

Back to last weekend, I just heard that Valnes had to DNF the race because he suffered heart arrhythmia for the first time ever.
Shouldn't he be sitting this one out? I get that he wants to qualify asap, but rushing back after this happened to an athlete for the first time sounds really reckless to me. IMO a team doctor/doctor from the federation should step in. Skip this weekend, ski the Tour at least until the classic sprint in Val di Fiemme and then prepare at home before racing again in Falun.