Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

[Vino attacks everyone]

the distance coach of today's silver winners, implied that the problem was not in skis...

'mountains are mountains. those who ran 15k did not recover for today. just look at the norwegians'

this does not make sense looking at the swedes.

Ronning and Jespersen were both quite clear on that their skies were bad werent they?

 

[python]

i seldom take the losers words for explanations of why they lose....and of the norwegians i am inclined only to hear sundby. besides, to arrive at my own opinion, i look at many statements and rely on my own observations...just as i posted during the broadcast that the split times seemed to indicate no particular troubles for northug and sundby's skis.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Ronning and Jespersen were both quite clear on that their skies were bad werent they?

I think it seemed the case, but nevertheless the borrowing people from the biathlon team and the crisis management alterations they made worked to some extent, because Rønning and Jespersen had some skis that were bad, but at least didn't appear to be the travesty that the skis given to Weng and Johaug were.

 

[Vino attacks everyone]

i seldom take the losers words for explanations of why they lose....and of the norwegians i am inclined only to hear sundby. besides, to arrive at my own opinion, i look at many statements and rely on my own observations...just as i posted during the broadcast that the split times seemed to indicate no particular troubles for northug and sundby's skis.

Nordthug used his own structure at the skies atleast. (not part of the Norwegian team), but yea Sundby looked quite ok

 

[kingjr]

i seldom take the losers words for explanations of why they lose....and of the norwegians i am inclined only to hear sundby. besides, to arrive at my own opinion, i look at many statements and rely on my own observations...just as i posted during the broadcast that the split times seemed to indicate no particular troubles for northug and sundby's skis.

I heard Northug was actually very happy with his skis today.

 

[Walkman]

interestigly, northug's pace behind was virtually the same as hellner's upfront...
both were maxed out, which means petter RECOVERED.

Hellner was hardly maxed out today. I honestly think he could have gone 30-60 seconds faster if he had been in hunting mode.

 

[python]

came across this cruel humour... but still funny

3 norges, a swede and a finn

 

[Dazed and Confused]

Very nice python.

Biath, Men's 15km Mass Start will begin at 12:30 today.

Edit: Postponed and scheduled for Tuesday now.

 

[python]

Hellner was hardly maxed out today. I honestly think he could have gone 30-60 seconds faster if he had been in hunting mode.

i don’t see him shaving that much… perhaps 15-20 seconds faster is realistic (time lost with the flag and the finish deceleration). See my reasoning below.

also, understand that my quick comment you quoted was made DURING the live broadcast to on-the-fly evaluate northug’s skis, NOT the hellner’s potential performance. it was based on the occasional on-screen splits following each time they entered the stadium (3 per leg)…

it turns out, my observations were reasonably accurate based both on the post-race comments and the official race splits
http://data.fis-ski.com/pdf/2014/CC/3062/2014CC3062RL.pdf

2 more points...

Point 1.
when hellner started his 4th leg, he had 14.3 sec on vyleg. obviously he tried as hard as he could to stay away from the chasing russian. and he succeeded. vyleg himself confirmed that after 5 km of hard chasing and losing another 2-3 seconds, he gave up and decided to change his tactic to safeguarding silver against the frenchman. comparing hellner’s leg time (21:25 -fastest in his leg) to vyleg’s (21:38) who skied tactically last half, it become apparent that hellner could only gain what he decided to waste in a celebration.

the second point- more important - northug was still unremarkable, despite having good skis. it is inarguable that he went full tilt on his leg to improve norway's place and, more, importantly, to rehabilitate his own shaken image.

here are cold numbers from the official results of the two skating legs.

1. LEGKOV Alexander 20:33.4
2. DUVILLARD Robin 20:55.4
3. SUNDBY Martin Johnsrud 20:56.8
4 CLARA Roland 21:00.4
5 OLSSON Johan 21:00.4
6. JAKS Martin 21:25.2
7 HELLNER Marcus 21:25.5
8 LIVERS Toni21:32.7
9 NORTHUG Petter Jr.21:36.0 (3d fastest in his own leg)

9th fastest and over 42 seconds slower than his compatriot who's skis were also initially declared 'bad' by vidar løfshus !
http://www.langrenn.com/kan-ha-funnet-loesning-paa-smoerekrisen.5420164-313274.html

this was how the norwegian competitors analysed his performance as opposed to loving fans fed the hype. in sochi, petter was a sorry sight on supposedly bad skis. He remained barely competitive on ‘good’ skis. and if we add several who dropped him in the skating leg of skiathlon (cologna, cherno..to name a few), the true picture emerges - an over-hyped, big-mouthed skier who never qualified for sochi by right. at least, it is 100% true in sprints.

 

[Walkman]

i don’t see him shaving that much… perhaps 15-20 seconds faster is realistic (time lost with the flag and the finish deceleration). See my reasoning below.

also, understand that my quick comment you quoted was made DURING the live broadcast to on-the-fly evaluate northug’s skis, NOT the hellner’s potential performance. it was based on the occasional on-screen splits following each time they entered the stadium (3 per leg)…

it turns out, my observations were reasonably accurate based both on the post-race comments and the official race splits
http://data.fis-ski.com/pdf/2014/CC/3062/2014CC3062RL.pdf

2 more points...

Point 1.
when hellner started his 4th leg, he had 14.3 sec on vyleg. obviously he tried as hard as he could to stay away from the chasing russian. and he succeeded. vyleg himself confirmed that after 5 km of hard chasing and losing another 2-3 seconds, he gave up and decided to change his tactic to safeguarding silver against the frenchman. comparing hellner’s leg time (21:25 -fastest in his leg) to vyleg’s (21:38) who skied tactically last half, it become apparent that hellner could only gain what he decided to waste in a celebration.

the second point- more important - northug was still unremarkable, despite having good skis. it is inarguable that he went full tilt on his leg to improve norway's place and, more, importantly, to rehabilitate his own shaken image.

here are cold numbers from the official results of the two skating legs.

1. LEGKOV Alexander 20:33.4
2. DUVILLARD Robin 20:55.4
3. SUNDBY Martin Johnsrud 20:56.8
4 CLARA Roland 21:00.4
5 OLSSON Johan 21:00.4
6. JAKS Martin 21:25.2
7 HELLNER Marcus 21:25.5
8 LIVERS Toni21:32.7
9 NORTHUG Petter Jr.21:36.0 (3d fastest in his own leg)

9th fastest and over 42 seconds slower than his compatriot who's skis were also initially declared 'bad' by vidar løfshus !
http://www.langrenn.com/kan-ha-funnet-loesning-paa-smoerekrisen.5420164-313274.html

this was how the norwegian competitors analysed his performance as opposed to loving fans fed the hype. in sochi, petter was a sorry sight on supposedly bad skis. He remained barely competitive on ‘good’ skis. and if we add several who dropped him in the skating leg of skiathlon (cologna, cherno..to name a few), the true picture emerges - an over-hyped, big-mouthed skier who never qualified for sochi by right. at least, it is 100% true in sprints.

I think the baseline for your argumentation is flawed.

I don't believe Hellner tried as hard as he could out of the stadium. I mean, why would he?! Why risking to do a "Brink" when you are a better skater than Vylle? He also did beat him in the sprint in the 30km so it's not like he would be dead in the water if Vylle caught him (even if you always want to avoid a sprint). I believe it's far more reasonable to think he did set out at a high steady pace from the start and then just raced based on the time reports he got during the race.

Also if we compare to Vancouver, this was exactly what happened. Hellner went out in the lead with France and the Czechs and was by no means killing himself. Instead he was racing at a high steady pace that later on dropped the other two riders. Northug did race faster until Hellner deemed the time gap to be too close and raised the pace and increased the distance to Petter.

And of course I realize your post war made during the race. I just wanted to pitch my opinion and create a debate.

 

[python]

subtracting 60 seconds from hellner's performance is not only a phantasy, but a wishful thinking of a fan with sketchy understanding of the race as it developed.

i provided a link and hard numbers. hellner gained only 2-3 seconds on vyleg in 5 km who also knows everything about blowing up and skied hard tempo while chasing (as opposed to blowing up like sundby did after he chased down legkov).

it would be too risky for hellner to count on a sprint with vyleg, so he had to keep him away and ski hard. all the info goes both ways. hellner would be lucky to subtract 20 seconds and that was quite impressive as it was.

you did create a debate but pitching 60 seconds was way unrealistic given the other performances like legkov's who was the absolute fastest yesterday.

hellner is a better straight up climber than vyleg (like an the cermis climb) but it has little to do with body weight (vyleg is probably lighter than hellner being much shorter). the issue was if he could go 60 seconds faster (about 5%) yesterday. natural performance wise and having the responsibility for the front, very much doubtful.

 

[meat puppet]

Inclined to agree with walkman, though I have no incentive to push it.

However, on a real course hellner's weight advantage would have gained him even more.

 

[python]

Inclined to agree with walkman, though I have no incentive to push it.

However, on a real course hellner's weight advantage would have gained him even more.

again, the issue was NOT if hellner was faster than vyleg - i clearly showed he was and it was admitted by a post race interview. the issue was that an entire minute faster in a 20 minute race is too huge - 5% improvement given the realities of actual performances in those conditions. it was not like hellner was cruising with 2-3 minutes advantage. it was still seconds.

 

[Kokoso]

i provided a link and hard numbers. hellner gained only 2-3 seconds on vyleg in 5 km who also knows everything about blowing up and skied hard tempo while chasing (as opposed to blowing up like sundby did after he chased down legkov).

You provided hard numbers, yes, but I don't quite understand - you wrote that both Vyleg and Sundby were chasing hard and Sundby blowed opposed to Vyleg...but Sundby was lot faster on his leg, so I don't exactly see how he blowed and Vyleg not.

 

[python]

You provided hard numbers, yes, but I don't quite understand - you wrote that both Vyleg and Sundby were chasing hard and Sundby blowed opposed to Vyleg...but Sundby was lot faster on his leg, so I don't exactly see how he blowed and Vyleg not.

ok let me try a different approach, and if you get a chance
take a look at the video because i'm going to mention numbers from my memory...

when sundby started his 3d leg, he was about 20 seconds behind legkov in the same leg. unlike vyleg in the 4th leg against hellner, sundby very quickly closed the 20 second gap to legkov. one can see a small group lead by legkov where sundby hung in the back (i don't remember exactly the kilometer, but would guess it was 3d of 4th km in that 10 km leg). that acceleration (i am not saying it was a sprint by sudby) but a tempo harder that he could have sustained for the entire leg, that fast closing COST HIM.

according to the video and legkov post race interview, when legkov accelerated on the 3d lap (that is after 6.7 km), sundby was not able to stay with him and lost more that the intial 20 seconds he gained. this was what i meant by sundby blowing up, which was probably too strong a statement given that sundby skied an excellent leg overall - 40 seconds faster that northug skied his.

thus my parallel of hellner-vyleg race with legkov-sundby race was to illustrate that vyleg did not go sprinting after hellner, even though he had to close only 14 seconds as opposed to 20 seconds like sundby.

in his postrace interview, vyleg explained it by his fear of blowing up if he went too fast from the start. thus he settled for a hard tempo he thought he could sustain hoping that it would enough to join hellner upfront if hellner weakened. hellner proved stronger. they both settled into a hard tempo. hellner had to stay away because a smallest mistake like a fall or a misstep downhill could quickly erode his advantage.

so vyleg did not blow up. he realized he could not get hellner early on and he did not pay the price. he was able to save energy for a finish against the frenchment because he spared himself from a hard chase ala sundby early in his race against hellner.

this is how i read the race and this was how they commented post race.

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Domracheva once again displaying her dominance. Soukalova, finally, got her deserved medal (she deserved 3 thus far) and Ekhoff saved Norway from a new disaster. Great great race!

 

[maltiv]

Domracheva once again displaying her dominance. Soukalova, finally, got her deserved medal (she deserved 3 thus far) and Ekhoff saved Norway from a new disaster. Great great race!

Not that great, Domracheva is just too dominant. Race was over after 1 shooting, something of which I have never seen before in a mass start. But Tiril Ekhoff's performance was very impressive, she's a very lovely girl with great potential.

I guess Libertine will start hating Domracheva too now, at least she should based on her argument for hating Fourcade

 

[Cance > TheRest]

Not that great, Domracheva is just too dominant. Race was over after 1 shooting, something of which I have never seen before in a mass start. But Tiril Ekhoff's performance was very impressive, she's a very lovely girl with great potential.

I guess Libertine will start hating Domracheva too now, at least she should based on her argument for hating Fourcade

Great in the sense that the results couldn't be much better given that Domracheva is shooting this well. Also the fight for 3rd was pretty exciting.
Atleast Domracheva has a bit of decency compared to Fourcade. She doesn't talk about winning 5 golds (when having 2) and she doesn't have to make stupid signs with her arms each time, she's looking set to win. Also her skiing is just so much smoother than powerhouse Fourcade

 

[jsem94]

The only interesting part of the race was the fight for bronze, Dasha is too good.

It's insane how Dasha makes one-skate look so fluid and effortless. She doesn't even seem to be pushing it, but she's skiing circles around everyone.

Fourcade's technique is certainly efficient too though, but I agree that it isn't as smooth. It's not as aesthetic.

 

[Kokoso]

I guess Libertine will start hating Domracheva too now, at least she should based on her argument for hating Fourcade

Exactly
Race wasn't over after 1st shooting. If Soukalova wasn't that far behind Darja and if she shoot clear last stand than it could be interesting fight for first place.

 

[Kokoso]

Fourcade's technique is more powerful just because he's more powerful than Darja. If she was as powerful as him, her technique would probably look more like his. Martin technique is just faster. I find both of techniques brilliant.

 

[meat puppet]

The only interesting part of the race was the fight for bronze, Dasha is too good.

It's insane how Dasha makes one-skate look so fluid and effortless. She doesn't even seem to be pushing it, but she's skiing circles around everyone.

Fourcade's technique is certainly efficient too though, but I agree that it isn't as smooth. It's not as aesthetic.

With Domracheva's current form, especially shooting form, the race was a curiosity from the get go.

Wholeheartedly agree with your assessment about her technical finesse. IMHO she is technically the best skate skier around. The only relevant comparison in my book would be Elofsson, but I prefer Dasha.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Martin is just a very good technical skier who can get the power down very well. Darya is just in a league of her own in terms of technique and the only man who is close is Lars Berger, and even then less so than he used to be. She's just a pure finesse skier. Martin is best to watch as a skier in jump-skate. It's amazing how effortless he makes that look when he attacks and others are splashing snow all over the place.

I don't hate Domracheva. But if she were to continue in this vein all season, I might start to. I never even disliked Martin Fourcade until the Worlds in Ruhpolding. And even then, it wasn't that much (although the Östersund 2011 gestures to the crowd as he outshot Ferry and Bergman were a bit unpleasant). It's only over the last two years where he's gone from being "the best in a good competition" to "the best by so much that he can win an Individual by 2 minutes while dancing to the line" that I've grown from being "I want other people to win because Fourcade isn't one of my favourites" to "I want anybody to win and wipe that smug grin off Fourcade's face".

Everyone thought Darya would wipe the floor with everyone once Neuner retired, but instead she only produced the form in fits and bursts and wasn't able to put it down consistently, and instead Tora Berger won the World Cup easily, mainly because she could outski most people, and the only people who she couldn't outski were not able to shoot with any consistency. If Darya ups her general shooting percentages to 90%, rest assured I'll get bored of her very quickly. For the moment, I just think that they've timed things well and the Sochi courses suit her perfectly, as we knew from last year's test event.

When you think about it, Charlotte Kalla's probably the most technically proficient skate skier among the women's XC racers, and look at what she's been able to do.

 

[Kokoso]

Martin is just a very good technical skier who can get the power down very well. Darya is just in a league of her own in terms of technique and the only man who is close is Lars Berger, and even then less so than he used to be. She's just a pure finesse skier. Martin is best to watch as a skier in jump-skate. It's amazing how effortless he makes that look when he attacks and others are splashing snow all over the place.

I don't hate Domracheva. But if she were to continue in this vein all season, I might start to. I never even disliked Martin Fourcade until the Worlds in Ruhpolding. And even then, it wasn't that much (although the Östersund 2011 gestures to the crowd as he outshot Ferry and Bergman were a bit unpleasant). It's only over the last two years where he's gone from being "the best in a good competition" to "the best by so much that he can win an Individual by 2 minutes while dancing to the line" that I've grown from being "I want other people to win because Fourcade isn't one of my favourites" to "I want anybody to win and wipe that smug grin off Fourcade's face".

Everyone thought Darya would wipe the floor with everyone once Neuner retired, but instead she only produced the form in fits and bursts and wasn't able to put it down consistently, and instead Tora Berger won the World Cup easily, mainly because she could outski most people, and the only people who she couldn't outski were not able to shoot with any consistency. If Darya ups her general shooting percentages to 90%, rest assured I'll get bored of her very quickly. For the moment, I just think that they've timed things well and the Sochi courses suit her perfectly, as we knew from last year's test event.

When you think about it, Charlotte Kalla's probably the most technically proficient skate skier among the women's XC racers, and look at what she's been able to do.

Don't take me wrong but I think smug grin might be just product of your perception, or imagination. I don't see any. I find him likable.
So maybe Darja's style isn't that efficient, when Tora could outski her?
I'd say Marit is better in skate, last time it was well visible in skiathlon, where Charlotte could only be faster thanks to higher frequency uphill. On the flat it was clear who's superior.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Don't take me wrong but I think smug grin might be just product of your perception, or imagination. I don't see any. I find him likable.
So maybe Darja's style isn't that efficient, when Tora could outski her?
I'd say Marit is better in skate, last time it was well visible in skiathlon, where Charlotte could only be faster thanks to higher frequency uphill. On the flat it was clear who's superior.

Tora was the 4th fastest skier last year. The fastest 3 were Mäkäräinen, Gössner and Domracheva. Domracheva was one of the few exceptions that could outski Tora last season. However, Tora's shooting % for 2012-13 was 89%. By contrast, Mäkäräinen hit 76% of her targets, Gössner 71% and Domracheva 79%. Tora could be more or less confident of outshooting at least one of them on any given day, probably all, and wouldn't be doing enough penalty loops for them to catch her, most of the time. And the only top level athletes who could outshoot her were Brunet and Skardino, both of whom she could easily stand to lose a penalty loop or two to on the skis, so she could be confident of racking up the podiums.

I think Charlotte has better technique than Marit. Marit is putting out brute force + good technique, Kalla is less power than Marit but more fluent.