Nordic Skiing/Biathlon Thread

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So, today starts the Tour de Ski. First of all the new points system is stupid favouring too muchsprints and intermidiate check points (having an intermidiate check point in a time trial really goes against the essence of it) and the final climb as a mass-start could be a mess. Its also lacking a proper distance race, around 30km for men but that's not really a surprise.

In the women's side Johaug will win, even if some of the others can keep themselves closer to her, she will smoke them in the final climb. Curious to see how Andersson and Ostberg will return.

In the men's side I think it will be a good fight between Ustiugov and Klaebo. The route favours Klaebo more but Ustiugov seems to be in good shape (despite his terrible performance in Planica) and could give him a good fight. Bolshunov and Iversen seem to have more trouble in altitude and I think they are better suited to the Ski Tour (especially Bolshunov) but they are still candidates. Kruger can be an outside pick but the sprints+classic races+mass-start final climb don't favour him.
 
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Points based is stupid, but I guess if they're going to experiment with it to allow the sprinters more of a chance to compete, then a year with no competing major goals (no Olympics or World Championships) is the right time to do it.

At least Ebba looks to be in good form, Ingvild is back too. Johaug being Johaug. Commentary team practically in tears as Diggins is dropped.
 
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Mass start to start the tour, mass start to finish the tour. Why not just have a mass start every stage? I don't understand the thinking here. Ok, so they want to keep it close and exciting as long as possible, but they can have exciting races by having different kinds of races.

This sort of race (it wasn't even 15km, it was 14) where the top 30 finish just over 30 seconds within each other is not good. Yes, the top guys were there, but I think having the gaps bigger in an individual start race and then a sprint would have been a much better call. The sprinters could try to get some time back while the distance skiers would try to limit their losses in the sprint, assuming they get in the top 30. Now it's a sprint, where Klaebo will make the final and likely win (though Chanavat and Pellegrino should push him, and we'll see how Ustiugov does tomorrow) and the gaps will be big.

The individual start race in Toblach will be huge. Ustiugov beat Klaebo by almost 50 seconds, Bolshunov was almost 30 ahead of Klaebo, so that's where those guys (and likely Krueger, Holund, Roethe, etc) will take some time out of Klaebo, but that's likely it. They then have to wait until the final climb, and Bolshunov is too big to do much damage there. He lost his podium there last year and the year before he lost a chunk of time.

Bolshunov lost his second place today by slowing down and looking the wrong way, ala Klaebo last year in Ruka. So a bit of redemption in that regard for the Norwegian. Also, Klaebo's skis were rockets. He passed Cologna so easily on that final downhill coming into the stadium I felt sorry for the Swiss. He was eventually passed by two more Norwegians, Iversen and Nyenget. I thought he would be the one to try and attack in the final kilometers but it didnt' happen.

8 of the top 12 were Norwegian, all 10 Norwegians in the top 18. Basically they could have brought anyone that can walk and they would have been in the points. Yeah, it's the other nations job to get better and be more competitive, but that is embarrassing and not good for the sport going forward. Andersson spared us of a clean sweep earlier, and Ustiugov and Bolshunov did the same, but IMO this may turn people off.

I wonder what happens to the Swiss team when Cologna retires. Of course they'll have skiers, but they won't be competitive. What will that do to Switzerland's hosting races? Davos for sure stays, but I wonder how often other venues like Lenzerheide and Val Mustair will be used. Swiss sponsors are important, Switzerland is in the middle of Europe, middle of the Alps, so I'll say there's still going to be races held there. It won't be like Poland when Kowalczyk retired. Germany still has races on the calendar despite their team not getting on the podium in a long time. German sponsors are necessary for FIS as well.

It'll be interesting to see what Niskanen does in tomorrow. If he can get in the top 30 and save some seconds, then he'll be a force. After that he can rely on the 15km classic handicap pursuit in Toblach, the classic sprint in Val Di Fiemme and of course the mass start 15km the day after. He'll fight for a podium spot, I am sure. I think realistically there are 7 or 8 men that could fight for the win. Klaebo the favorite, then you have Bolshunov, Cologna, Holund, Iversen, Krueger, Niskanen, Ustiugov. Iversen will struggle on Alpe Cermis. Cologna, Holund, Iversen, Krueger and Niskanen in the sprint and the two Russians will need to improve on their tactics from a year ago, where they lost the tour. If you guys remember, Bolshunov, Larkov, Sobokarev and Vylegzhanin drove the pace and dropped Ustiugov out of running for the stage and ultimately giving him too much of a deficit before the final climb. LIkewise, Bolshunov lost the stage and didn't help his cause for the podium. I am hopeful they implement better tactics this time around.
 
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Before the start there was short report on german television about Fis discussing the future ox xc skiing. Basically they said that they have to cater to the "kids" and what they want to see. Hence they want to go for "shorter and faster " formats. The super sprint might soon be in the world cup, too.

:rolleyes:
 
FIS probably get away with German sponsors because of the interest across all the FIS sports. Germany is very big for ski jumping and NoCo, so sponsoring XC is probably something that comes with that. Swiss skiing still has van der Graaff, but basically all distance interest goes out the window especially now NV7 has retired ridiculously prematurely because of the lack of viability of being a pure distance specialist in today's XC World Cup.

The good news is that Lenzerheide is still somewhat establishing itself as a venue, they paid quite a bit for the redesign and redevelopment with the biathlon course, but they're stuck at the IBU Cup level there, so they'll want to bring in some elite level competition in the XC as long as the fans will come, which the position of the TDS in holiday season will likely facilitate as people can travel. Otherwise they may be minded to put events over in the Romandie part of the country, somewhere like Champex-Lac or La Lécherette, to draw fans from France and from the Valle d'Aosta, home region of Federico Pellegrino. Val Müstair is Cologna's home, so unless he goes into the event organisation committee, that will probably disappear from the calendar with his retirement.
 
Before the start there was short report on german television about Fis discussing the future ox xc skiing. Basically they said that they have to cater to the "kids" and what they want to see. Hence they want to go for "shorter and faster " formats. The super sprint might soon be in the world cup, too.

:rolleyes:
I despise this attitude, they have it with cycling too which is what leads to stuff like the Hammer Series. The insinuation is that today's youth cannot handle long and detailed things. It's so patronising and insulting, and speaks of the older generation basically throwing its hands up dismissing the younger generation because it's not the same as them, and it's easier to sell to advertising executives who are generally of the same generation as them to blame the shifting audience demographic than to admit they ruined their own product. They forget that "the kids" they dismiss for not having the attention span to deal with an endurance sport are also the generation of binge-watching. If something grabs their attention and can hold it, they will watch it for as long as it lasts.
 
The thing about Switzerland and Germany is that there a ton of recreational skiers. There are a ton of options (when there is snow) to go ski. The area of Lenzerheide and Val Mustair (Graubunden/Grisons) is Romansh speaking (it's a Romance language that is one of Switzerland's official languages) and Cologna is part of that minority. They have produced a lot of top Swiss winter athletes, Cologna (and his younger brother Gianluca), the Gasparin sisters, Sandro Viletta, Toni Livers, Curdin Perl, Jonas Baumann, Serafin Wiestner, etc. That area has a ton of tradition and people are knowledgable. In Sochi alone, that area produced a good chunk of Switzerland's medals. I don't see any youngsters coming up, following in Cologna's footsteps. No, I am not talking about them emulating Cologna's success (very small amount of skiers around the world can), but simply being competitive, getting into the thick of it at Junior Worlds or even Alpen Cup (the 2nd tier of racing). It's possibly even more bleak in the women's division. Cologna will for sure push on to 2022, but he'll likely retire after that. Sadly, Val Mustair will be dropped from the calendar. The crowds have been healthy there and in Lenzerheide, so that's very nice to see

Germany may have a bit more luck finding talent, but as Libertine said, much of the funding is going to NoCo, Biathlon, Ski jumping, Luge, etc. Not surprisingly, as Germany has done very well in those disciplines. It'll take something dramatic for the sponsors to drop those sports. The German xc team has had early retirements from Ringwald, Denise Herrmmann switching to biathlon three years ago, the youngsters not really breaking through (though the talent pool is greater in Norway and Sweden). Viktoria Carl is a very talented skier, but she's had physical issues and hasn't really strung a complete season since joining the tour. Katharina Hennig is likely their most consistent skier. Antonia Fraebel was a top junior, but she hasn't really shown any of that promise. Laura Gimmler is a good sprinter and short to middle distance skier, but hasn't had a top 10 yet ( I don't think). The German men haven't had much to celebrate since 2014 when Teichmann, Filbrich, Angerer retired. Dotzler and Tscharnke were supposed to take over and fight for top 10's but they had mysterious health problems and disappeared. Now if they get anyone in the top 20 it's a success. Today they had a 13th, 23rd and a 29th in the men's race. Not bad, all things considered, but the mess of the mass start will do that. There are so many skiers that can get into the points on a race like this that anything can happen.
 
It looks like all the Alpine countries are really struggling with the shrinking talent pool, less and less kids are competing in xc skiing.
Italy also has a ton of problems, they only have Pellegrino as a top guy, De Fabiani is really inconsistent and often has health problems. I don't even want to mention the women's side...
 
Good start for the two big Russians, Ustiugov can win the Tour if he avoids a bad day in the sprints or classic races but that's a big if. Unfortunately even if he does indeed win the Tour he already lost too many points to fight for the World Cup overall (unless Klaebo abandons for some reason). Wonder how much will the mass start final climb help Klaebo but I can't see him outside of the podium.

I was also under the impression Norwegians had excellent skis and they were very strong on both genders. Unlike the American women that already lost the Tour.
 
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First of all, the first thing that caught my attention is that Lenzerheide track is too narrow for a mass-start. Guess they have to deal with what they are given though.

In the women's race it turns out Andersson is the only one, who can compete with Norwegians. Ebba is really the one saving the honour of Swedish distance skiing here. With the rest being mostly sprinters, past their prime (Kalla) or not yet at their prime (Lundgren).

I was skipping through most of the men's race as they were sitting in a group. But based on last 5 km looks like Ustiugov is in great form. That was one hell of an attack. In general no big surprises though. The only ones, who can mix it with Norwegians and Russians in distance races are Cologna and Niskanen.
 
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I wonder what happens to the Swiss team when Cologna retires. Of course they'll have skiers, but they won't be competitive. What will that do to Switzerland's hosting races? Davos for sure stays, but I wonder how often other venues like Lenzerheide and Val Mustair will be used. Swiss sponsors are important, Switzerland is in the middle of Europe, middle of the Alps, so I'll say there's still going to be races held there. It won't be like Poland when Kowalczyk retired. Germany still has races on the calendar despite their team not getting on the podium in a long time. German sponsors are necessary for FIS as well.

It looks like all the Alpine countries are really struggling with the shrinking talent pool, less and less kids are competing in xc skiing.
Italy also has a ton of problems, they only have Pellegrino as a top guy, De Fabiani is really inconsistent and often has health problems. I don't even want to mention the women's side...

I could keep going on the future of the sport for a long time, and it has been discussed a lot here recently too. But yeah, in many countries the pre-2011 generation is gradually retiring with no-one replacing them. Cologna has also been around for more than a decade, and it's only a matter of time before he is gone too. What concerns Italy, their XC is entirely reliant on Pellegrino. They have won 5 medals in the last 3 major events (W.Champs, Olympics) - all thanks to Pellegrino. But it can't last forever. Once he declines too, Italy is done in XC.

But I think a good point is raised about the future of Tour de Ski in this context. It depends a lot on how sponsor interest develops in the future years, but I do wonder if one day that Scandinavian Ski Tour effectively replaces Tour de Ski? Of course FIS would never want this to happen, central European markets are very important to them. That's why they introduced mass starts too, to attract new viewers in different markets.

But the irony is that it's not working out. From early 2000's onwards FIS went for a full mass-start mode to cater for German interest, but when all top Germans retired, then their interest declined. The fate of sponsorship support decides the fate of TdS. Can't tell you, when would that happen. But next economic recession could do serious damage to TdS prospects, because when financial situation gets tight, sponsors become more picky in terms of what to support. And XC would be fairly low down in the preference list, even compared to other winter sports.
 
Germany may have a bit more luck finding talent, but as Libertine said, much of the funding is going to NoCo, Biathlon, Ski jumping, Luge, etc. Not surprisingly, as Germany has done very well in those disciplines. It'll take something dramatic for the sponsors to drop those sports. The German xc team has had early retirements from Ringwald, Denise Herrmmann switching to biathlon three years ago, the youngsters not really breaking through (though the talent pool is greater in Norway and Sweden). Viktoria Carl is a very talented skier, but she's had physical issues and hasn't really strung a complete season since joining the tour. Katharina Hennig is likely their most consistent skier. Antonia Fraebel was a top junior, but she hasn't really shown any of that promise. Laura Gimmler is a good sprinter and short to middle distance skier, but hasn't had a top 10 yet ( I don't think). The German men haven't had much to celebrate since 2014 when Teichmann, Filbrich, Angerer retired. Dotzler and Tscharnke were supposed to take over and fight for top 10's but they had mysterious health problems and disappeared. Now if they get anyone in the top 20 it's a success. Today they had a 13th, 23rd and a 29th in the men's race. Not bad, all things considered, but the mess of the mass start will do that. There are so many skiers that can get into the points on a race like this that anything can happen.
Do not rule out Carl picking up a gun. She's already had a go with rifle in hand but decided against it at the same time as Herrmann switched, but the fact Dahlmeier has retired young and, apart from Herrmann and Preuß, the team has started very badly this season, means the team may feel pressured to find some more success and go for some stunt casting, like when Evi Sachenbacher-Stehle was switched to biathlon in 2012 after Neuner retired. In the end Dahlmeier was a junior sensation who emerged ready to compete with the world's best almost from the get-go, but I'm not sure there's anybody in the current junior system that's as ready-made a star as she was, and if they continue to struggle at the World Cup I wouldn't be surprised if Carl gives it another go, unless she was Sarah Schaber-level bad with rifle in hand when she tried it (Schaber was a junior XC champion who had a go at biathlon, and was shooting down at around the 55% mark internationally).
 
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Speaking of Swiss, by the way, why has Selina Gasparin decided to compete in Tour de Ski? Sure there is a bit of break in biathlon now, but isn't TdS too energy-consuming to compete before returning to biathlon world cup anyway?

What concerns German XC prospects you have to say they always manage to find a consistent overall team. About 4 skiers in top 30 level, which is also usually good enough for top 6 in relays. On their best days some can enter top 10 individually too. However, the problem for Germany is that they lack elite prospects. 20th positions in individual races and 6ths in relays aren't going to cut it.

Saying that Germany's prospects are better than Switzerland's and Italy's, who are already struggling to field relay teams. Germany is not going to face that problem in the nearby future.
 
Gasparin will likely race tomorrow, but that's it. This is her home track, she and her sisters spend a lot of time in Lenzerheide training (even if their home is Samedan, in the Engadine valley), it's two skate races, it's at home, so why not give it a go? She raced the sprint in Lenzerheide two seasons ago and got into the top 30. I don't think she loses anything if she does one or both races at home.

Karl is 24, Hennig 23, Gimmler 26, Krehl 24...so their core is still young and there is potential, as we've discussed, but of course the consistency is what's lacking, and so is a podium. If one of them can pop a podium or two, then it'll be big for them and the sponsors.

The Italians are in big trouble, particularly on the women's side. Likewise the French, who rely far too much on skate sprints and the relays. The women's team is almost non-existent, sadly.
 
Italy has the problem that provinces that were crucial for the movement, Trentino, Belluno and Udine, are no longer "producing" top talents, the talent pool has really shrunken and you can't really blame Biathlon for that, South Tyrol has never been that great in XC skiing and most of the Biathlon talent is from the Antholzer Tal or the Ridnauntal.
 
Yeah, it's really too bad what's happening to a lot of countries, particularly countries that have had a good history in this sport. The Italians have for what, 40 years or so, had at least 4 guys that can be very competitive and thus they've had great success in relays. Now, as you said, it's basically only Pellegrino and whenever De Fabbiani is feeling good. They weren't far off the medals in Sochi, but since then the only medals in team events have come courtesy of Pellegrino and whoever is fit enough to partner him in team sprints. For a while that partner was Noeckler. I haven't seen him at the WC lately. Is he battling physical issues, is it form, is it motivation? I thought Salvadori could be a guy that could get some top 10's. He had a great World Champs in Lahti, but hasn't had great results since then. What about Rastelli? He was a good sprinter, got on the podium in Drammen years ago. Is he still around? Not a lot of depth, and I can see why Pellegrino trains with foreigners like Klaebo sometimes, he's got nobody else at home to train with.

There is the 19 year old Davide Graz, he's had good results in junior world's and he made the heats in Davos.

The French have a young talent as well, Jules Chappaz. Won at the Lahti world junior last season. Interesting to see how he fares on the WC, but I guess when 39 year old Jean Marc Gaillard can still race WC's, it doesn't really say a whole lot about the prospects of the French, at least not now.

The other European countries have very little to offer in terms of depth, it's 1-2 skiers from several countries that can get into the points, and not consistently. I guess it's hard when the top spots are always peppered with Norwegians and Russians on the men's side, the Scandinavians and sometimes Americans on the women's side.

I am also a bit curious about the Finnish team. Parmakoski didn't start the tour as she got sick over Christmas. That leaves Niskanen and Kylloenen, and they've battled their own sickness issues over the past year or so. On the men's side it's basically only Niskanen. That's the thing, it's only one or two skiers per country outside of Norway, Russia and Sweden, and the Swedes have issues on the men's side.
 
Italy has the problem that provinces that were crucial for the movement, Trentino, Belluno and Udine, are no longer "producing" top talents, the talent pool has really shrunken and you can't really blame Biathlon for that, South Tyrol has never been that great in XC skiing and most of the Biathlon talent is from the Antholzer Tal or the Ridnauntal.
Vittozzi's home facilities are Forni Avoltri as are Daniele Cappellari's, while Brusson and Bionaz are producing a few young talents, with Gontier being from there, and junior standouts Michela Carrara, Didier Bionaz and Samuela Comola are all Valdôtain. Sure, a lot of the youngsters are still coming out of Südtirol, but it's not universal. It's true that in a lot of these countries biathlon plucks its talents from select regions where they have the facilities, but also none of the central European countries are exactly lacking in prospective biathletes.
 
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Yeah, it's really too bad what's happening to a lot of countries, particularly countries that have had a good history in this sport. The Italians have for what, 40 years or so, had at least 4 guys that can be very competitive and thus they've had great success in relays.

Basically XC is moving back to "the old days". In the 60's the norm was that Soviets and three Nordic countries won all medals. Then something started changing. Italy won gold out of nowhere in 1968. In 70's East Germans emerged. And Czechoslovakian women. And then in 1980's came Italy's big rise, especially in the 1985 Seefeld World Champs. The "discovery" and switch to skating technique coincided with their rise too.

Of course when we are taking about XC's return to the "old days", it's not quite the same. Back then all big 4 skiing nations could win, with not big differences in depth. At least on mens' side. Nowadays Finland has big problems with depth, having cut its ski sports budget. And well within the rest of the trio Norway is clearly dominant too.
 
Vittozzi's home facilities are Forni Avoltri as are Daniele Cappellari's, while Brusson and Bionaz are producing a few young talents, with Gontier being from there, and junior standouts Michela Carrara, Didier Bionaz and Samuela Comola are all Valdôtain. Sure, a lot of the youngsters are still coming out of Südtirol, but it's not universal. It's true that in a lot of these countries biathlon plucks its talents from select regions where they have the facilities, but also none of the central European countries are exactly lacking in prospective biathletes.
Yes, Biathlon is getting bigger in many other regions, I justt wanted to point out that the rise of Biathlon in South Tyrol hasn't exactly "stolen" a lot of talent from XC skiing.
The funny thing is that Vittozzi is also from place where they speak German, but I don't think that she actually speaks Plodnerisch, even if it's still more common than one would think.
 
Yes, it's pointless.
Something else, anyone knows what has happened to Krogh?
His career went downhill durning the last 1.5 years or so.


Don't know, but he has always had problems finding the right amount of training. He keeps switching between the sprint-team and the long distance team. Whenever he tries to keep up with guys on the distance team he can't handle the amount of training.