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Norman Alvis - Master's Hour Recoed

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Jul 22, 2009
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UncleChainwhip said:
Of the dozen pro riders who have done the 'new' hour mark in the last couple yniears, only Decker went to Mexico. As Kevin stated, the cost of a record attempt there is less than half the cost of 1 of their road bikes! This fact makes the riders, support crews and pro teams involved seem very irrational. What is the reason for NOT going there?
Perhaps Alex could talk some sense into Dowsett, Wiggins, et al.

I kind of like Mexico.......
One caveat to the pricing is that our costs were spread out amongst I think 11 athletes. There are no UCI commasaires in Mexico so we had to fly in Randy Schaefer from Colorado. Mexican officials and anti doping traveled from Mexico City, etc. we had three days of record attempts. Generally a morning and then evening hour attempt when conditions were right. Then shorter attempts mid day when it was hot and fast. Chris Schmidt wanted $2500 for a turnkey hour record attempt including officials USADA. If a pro wanted to go to Aguascalientes alone for an attempt it would cost a lot more. Much cheaper to do it somewhere else. On the other hand, if you can get a group together it can be as cheap or chaper and faster.
 
Apr 10, 2011
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Wow, what a teacup. Thanks for the nice pics. World Cup there must be special. No HVAC there though? Kevin mentions timing optimum rides for ambient outdoor temperatures. Circus tent at CO Springs not nearly as spacious, easier to control conditions. Does anyone remember the legend of the 'Moscow effect' of the indoor Russian velodrome? Was all the crying that Wiggins did about humidity and air pressure valid? If so, go to full lab-rat conditions in the CO Springs cocoon----airlock door in place, airtight seal on the rail perimeter and a janitor with a mop/pail full of Stan's sealant. May 2016 hour attempts there were advertised at $550 on their Records day!
 
Re: Re:

nslckevin said:
UncleChainwhip said:
Of the dozen pro riders who have done the 'new' hour mark in the last couple yniears, only Decker went to Mexico. As Kevin stated, the cost of a record attempt there is less than half the cost of 1 of their road bikes! This fact makes the riders, support crews and pro teams involved seem very irrational. What is the reason for NOT going there?
Perhaps Alex could talk some sense into Dowsett, Wiggins, et al.

I kind of like Mexico.......
One caveat to the pricing is that our costs were spread out amongst I think 11 athletes. There are no UCI commasaires in Mexico so we had to fly in Randy Schaefer from Colorado. Mexican officials and anti doping traveled from Mexico City, etc. we had three days of record attempts. Generally a morning and then evening hour attempt when conditions were right. Then shorter attempts mid day when it was hot and fast. Chris Schmidt wanted $2500 for a turnkey hour record attempt including officials USADA. If a pro wanted to go to Aguascalientes alone for an attempt it would cost a lot more. Much cheaper to do it somewhere else. On the other hand, if you can get a group together it can be as cheap or chaper and faster.
In addition to this is the time and cost required for altitude adaptation.

Not everyone lives/trains at altitude, so to prepare correctly for it you need to also allow for several weeks away from home base, with all the extra costs that involves.

It's also a physiological risk in the sense that for those who are experiencing the greatest change in altitude from their home base, the initial week or so is likely to resulting in some detraining since intensity of effort will need to be dialled back.

It really helps to have had previous experience of the acclimation process to understand the individual's response to such an altitude and to develop a plan for the optimal duration of stay and training in the lead up to an attempt. So that means several weeks away and done at least twice, preferably more than twice.

Given the time investment alone to do it properly, that's why it's more something for retiring pros to consider than for someone in the middle of their racing career.
 
Re:

UncleChainwhip said:
Wow, what a teacup. Thanks for the nice pics. World Cup there must be special. No HVAC there though? Kevin mentions timing optimum rides for ambient outdoor temperatures. Circus tent at CO Springs not nearly as spacious, easier to control conditions. Does anyone remember the legend of the 'Moscow effect' of the indoor Russian velodrome? Was all the crying that Wiggins did about humidity and air pressure valid? If so, go to full lab-rat conditions in the CO Springs cocoon----airlock door in place, airtight seal on the rail perimeter and a janitor with a mop/pail full of Stan's sealant. May 2016 hour attempts there were advertised at $550 on their Records day!
Air density, a function of barometric pressure, temperature and altitude (and only a very tiny bit humidity) has a significant impact on the speed attainable for a given power output.

In Wiggin's case, he did ride on a high barometric pressure day. A lower barometric pressure day could have seen another 500m added to his ride.

Many northern hemisphere tracks have temperature control but control of barometric pressure is unlikely.

I'm uncertain about the Moscow effect, other than as a 333.333 track it was very wide and tall giving sprinters a gravitational potential advantage compared with smaller tracks when setting their 200m flying TT qualification times. 9 of the 11 200m flying TT world records set since the 1980 Olympics were set at Moscow, although the current WR was set at Aguascalientes a few years ago.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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Alex Simmons/RST said:
nslckevin said:
UncleChainwhip said:
Of the dozen pro riders who have done the 'new' hour mark in the last couple yniears, only Decker went to Mexico. As Kevin stated, the cost of a record attempt there is less than half the cost of 1 of their road bikes! This fact makes the riders, support crews and pro teams involved seem very irrational. What is the reason for NOT going there?
Perhaps Alex could talk some sense into Dowsett, Wiggins, et al.

I kind of like Mexico.......
One caveat to the pricing is that our costs were spread out amongst I think 11 athletes. There are no UCI commasaires in Mexico so we had to fly in Randy Schaefer from Colorado. Mexican officials and anti doping traveled from Mexico City, etc. we had three days of record attempts. Generally a morning and then evening hour attempt when conditions were right. Then shorter attempts mid day when it was hot and fast. Chris Schmidt wanted $2500 for a turnkey hour record attempt including officials USADA. If a pro wanted to go to Aguascalientes alone for an attempt it would cost a lot more. Much cheaper to do it somewhere else. On the other hand, if you can get a group together it can be as cheap or chaper and faster.
In addition to this is the time and cost required for altitude adaptation.

Not everyone lives/trains at altitude, so to prepare correctly for it you need to also allow for several weeks away from home base, with all the extra costs that involves.

It's also a physiological risk in the sense that for those who are experiencing the greatest change in altitude from their home base, the initial week or so is likely to resulting in some detraining since intensity of effort will need to be dialled back.

It really helps to have had previous experience of the acclimation process to understand the individual's response to such an altitude and to develop a plan for the optimal duration of stay and training in the lead up to an attempt. So that means several weeks away and done at least twice, preferably more than twice.

Given the time investment alone to do it properly, that's why it's more something for retiring pros to consider than for someone in the middle of their racing career.
For those of us without the time and/or resources to do an altitude camp to properly prepare, it's still significantly faster to just "show and go" at altitude than to do it at sea level. I'm sure I could have gone further if I had time to acclimatize. But I still went further than if I had gone to LA or some other sea level indoor track.

What is it that they say, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" ?

Kevin
 
Re: Re:

nslckevin said:
For those of us without the time and/or resources to do an altitude camp to properly prepare, it's still significantly faster to just "show and go" at altitude than to do it at sea level. I'm sure I could have gone further if I had time to acclimatize. But I still went further than if I had gone to LA or some other sea level indoor track.

What is it that they say, "Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good" ?

Kevin
Oh for sure (but you still need time to sort out your non-acclimated pacing). Provided you're not an idiot, you will go faster than at sea level.

However the problem emerges when having that acclimation period and prior experience is the difference between setting and not setting a record. There are sizeable individual differences in the response to altitude and also to acclimation. Hence having prior individual experience does help.
 
Feb 21, 2017
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Couldn't renting a hyperbaric tent a couple of weeks in advance help in the acclimation involved?
 
Re:

GraftPunk said:
Couldn't renting a hyperbaric tent a couple of weeks in advance help in the acclimation involved?
To some extent however you need to actually train in those conditions in order to best race in them. The tents are more about training low while sleeping high.
 
Apr 10, 2011
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Recent Irish national record shows how fast Kevin and Norm really are............
Two different, contrasting approaches, Kevin---amateur, time, money, multiple peak season, years of TT perseverance, no children and support of NorCal racing/anti-ageing posse. Norm---10 years a pro, convenient home setting, little cost as an ex-USAC darling, sparse racing diet, family, career and focus on event.
Alex, do you know if Norm is the only ex-pro to have a master's Hour record? Do you know any other countries which allow this? USA has allowed ex-pro riders to vie for National championships since Thurlow Rodgers, retired from La Vie Claire, swayed a rule change in the 1980's.........
 
Jul 22, 2009
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UncleChainwhip said:
Recent Irish national record shows how fast Kevin and Norm really are............
Two different, contrasting approaches, Kevin---amateur, time, money, multiple peak season, years of TT perseverance, no children and support of NorCal racing/anti-ageing posse. .
Could you be a little more clear here? Are you accusing me of something illicit?

Alex, do you know if Norm is the only ex-pro to have a master's Hour record? Do you know any other countries which allow this? USA has allowed ex-pro riders to vie for National championships since Thurlow Rodgers, retired from La Vie Claire, swayed a rule change in the 1980's.........
Former pro Danny Nellisen won the Amateur road race at the 1995 worlds in Columbia. He was a former pro at the time who had taken a year off to a heart arrythmia or something. He ended up signing another pro contract after that.

Kent Bostick still holds the 45-49 world hour record. I am pretty sure he was a pro on Shaklee, but can't find anything definitive one way or the other. He is however a former 1996 olympian.

Mike McCarthy just broke the 45-49 3km record this week in Aguascalientes. 3:16.

Malcom Elliot won the master's world championship in Austria in about 2005 or 2006.

I don't think it's a US thing, it's a UCI thing.

BTW, maybe the Irish guy just isn't that good???

Kevin
 
Apr 10, 2011
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Whoa!
No accusation or innuendo, only compliments for your fine accomplishments. Appreciate your input here as i'm sure many others do. NorCal has been the largest strongest district in the USA since the days of ABL and also leading innovators in technology, nutrition and exercise physiology. To NOT give them credit would be an injustice & if Norm would have accessed them, his distance would have likely been furthered.
The adage 'Once a pro, always a pro' does not applied to modern competition. It originated from things like superior resources, residual benefits from a pro career and experiences with collusion/payoffs. 1992 was the last amateur cycling Olympics, pressured by other Olympic sports and many years of state-sponsored amateur athletes. USA leads the way in having the first 30 year old masters races, the first to allow pros compete as masters at national championships, allowing foreigners to compete/influence pro national championships and recently---allow foreigners to win state/district championships. What's next?
Great news about Mike, ex-WC and special talent still. Thanks for your info on other pro riders with veteran success.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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UncleChainwhip said:
Whoa!
No accusation or innuendo, only compliments for your fine accomplishments. Appreciate your input here as i'm sure many others do. NorCal has been the largest strongest district in the USA since the days of ABL and also leading innovators in technology, nutrition and exercise physiology. To NOT give them credit would be an injustice & if Norm would have accessed them, his distance would have likely been furthered.
The adage 'Once a pro, always a pro' does not applied to modern competition. It originated from things like superior resources, residual benefits from a pro career and experiences with collusion/payoffs. 1992 was the last amateur cycling Olympics, pressured by other Olympic sports and many years of state-sponsored amateur athletes. USA leads the way in having the first 30 year old masters races, the first to allow pros compete as masters at national championships, allowing foreigners to compete/influence pro national championships and recently---allow foreigners to win state/district championships. What's next?
Great news about Mike, ex-WC and special talent still. Thanks for your info on other pro riders with veteran success.
Thanks. Sorry if I jumped to conclusions, but the phrase "anti-aging posse" makes me think of *** like this.

http://www.manclinics.com/

Something I want no part of.
 
Aug 3, 2010
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Re: Re:

nslckevin said:
UncleChainwhip said:
Recent Irish national record shows how fast Kevin and Norm really are............
Two different, contrasting approaches, Kevin---amateur, time, money, multiple peak season, years of TT perseverance, no children and support of NorCal racing/anti-ageing posse. .
Could you be a little more clear here? Are you accusing me of something illicit?

Alex, do you know if Norm is the only ex-pro to have a master's Hour record? Do you know any other countries which allow this? USA has allowed ex-pro riders to vie for National championships since Thurlow Rodgers, retired from La Vie Claire, swayed a rule change in the 1980's.........
Former pro Danny Nellisen won the Amateur road race at the 1995 worlds in Columbia. He was a former pro at the time who had taken a year off to a heart arrythmia or something. He ended up signing another pro contract after that.

Kent Bostick still holds the 45-49 world hour record. I am pretty sure he was a pro on Shaklee, but can't find anything definitive one way or the other. He is however a former 1996 olympian.

Mike McCarthy just broke the 45-49 3km record this week in Aguascalientes. 3:16.

Malcom Elliot won the master's world championship in Austria in about 2005 or 2006.

I don't think it's a US thing, it's a UCI thing.

BTW, maybe the Irish guy just isn't that good???

Kevin
Kevin, I know I have been harsh towards you here in the past, mostly because I have very little faith in the 40-55 group in CA, and almost less for the same here in Boulder. Guys tearing legs off week in and week out but wouldn't race Master Nats if they were in our backyard. Your contribution to this thread has been significant. Thanks. Especially for bringing up Malcolm Elliot. Does that clown (said with affection) still live in CA? He was the first person I ever knew that drove around the country to races with a bike strapped to the back of a Porsche.
 
Jul 22, 2009
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UncleChainwhip said:
Let's rally behind Norm to go to Aguascalientes next year!
Don't let go of that bike yet Alvis. Get a pair of space legs for Christmas and hire Colby P. instead of Tommy D.
Proven to be a faster track and you have the experience from 2 this year. Bring on wind tunnel testing and the CA anti-aging supplies that are legal.
Tell wifey its a vacation & you'll get the pass for sure.
Should i kickstart the crowdfunding?
NO!! :eek:

Let's all tell his wife that he is spending his son's college fund on this record setting! It wouldn't be fair if he went to Mexico next year.

He might beat me! :lol:
 

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