Of Doping, and Hanging onto Cars

[131313]

That's actually a fair point. He seems to get over them ok when he's motivated. Like I said I'm sure he's done a bit if grabbing which isn't abnormal in the grupetto but I doubt he's using it more than the others.

So they're all doing it...

I'm sorry, how is this a ridiculous comparison, and how is the language to defend it any different? I'm just not seeing it.

Oh well, at least Rojas agrees with me: “We want a clean sport, not only in the fight against doping, but also about other things. We asked for a television camera to follow Cavendish in the race."

No one, and certainly not me, is saying that Cav should be 'thrown out of the race', just like I don't think someone should be tossed out just for suspicion of doping. What I am saying is that the organizers should actually care about the rules, and make an attempt to enforce them for all riders, even the big names. It's no different than doping, and the excuses are no different. The more excuses pile up, just like the last one, the more it reinforces my point.

 

[spalco]

No, it's not a black&white issue. How long would you allow someone to hold onto a bottle the DS hands out through the window? Half a second, 2 seconds? Who stops the time? What about the infamous "magic spanner" or medical treatment? Technically it's illegal for riders to get pushed by spectators on climbs, but how do you prevent it? Of course rules need to be enforced, but within reason and common sense, all those points above are judgement calls.

 

[Granville57]

No one, and certainly not me, is saying that Cav should be 'thrown out of the race...

But what about your earlier post?

Maybe you could clarify what [Farrar] meant when he said "he shouldn't be in the f$%ing race"? He only said it like 7 times...

Do you have a link to that? Someone else referenced this incident on VN as well but I have yet to find the source. I've seen the abbreviated version only but nothing where Tyler says that exactly.

What I do find odd is that there seems to be a dissonant message coming from the Garmin boyz. Tyler was clearly very upset with Cav but then we have these two tweets from Vaughters and Millar respectively.

Well, congrats to @MarkCavendish. That was an impressive win.
http://twitter.com/#!/Vaughters/status/92615594880409600

Kudos to Mark and HTC, they make that look way easier than it actually is.
http://twitter.com/#!/millarmind/status/92639856714452992

Strange, no?

 

[131313]

But what about your earlier post?

where did I say he should be thrown out of the race? I said the officials have no interest in enforcing the rules for Cavendish, nothing more, nothing less.

Do you have a link to that? Someone else referenced this incident on VN as well but I have yet to find the source. I've seen the abbreviated version only but nothing where Tyler says that exactly.

I saw it on Versus (the late night version). I imagine you can find a link somewhere. They had a camera on him right before he was interviewed by Ventura, right outside of the bus. He was complaining to Thor, the swanny, and anyone else in earshot. The had to bleep it out several times... Then when he was interviewed, he clammed up until Ventura pushed him.

What I do find odd is that there seems to be a dissonant message coming from the Garmin boyz. Tyler was clearly very upset with Cav but then we have these two tweets from Vaughters and Millar respectively.

Strange, no?

No, it's not strange at all. It's the peloton's version of Omerta, and Vaughters and Millar are two guys who go out of their way to not ruffle any feathers in the peloton when it comes to popular, powerful riders and teams. That's how the game works. Basically, they're both pu$$eys.

 

[131313]

No, it's not a black&white issue. How long would you allow someone to hold onto a bottle the DS hands out through the window? Half a second, 2 seconds? Who stops the time? What about the infamous "magic spanner" or medical treatment? Technically it's illegal for riders to get pushed by spectators on climbs, but how do you prevent it? Of course rules need to be enforced, but within reason and common sense, all those points above are judgement calls.

I don't disagree with this, but keep in mind the tour organizers were making a bit deal earlier in the race about enforcing the 'professional courtesy' for domestiques earlier in the race, fining guys and threatening to expel them from the race. And obviously, yes, everyone does it. So yeah, it's a judgement call to an extent, but it's a pretty easy judgement. Assistance after a mechanical or dropping back to the team car to fetch bottles for teammates versus getting dropped on a climb are not the same thing. This isn't a hard judgement to make.

 

[Granville57]

where did I say he should be thrown out of the race?

I wasn't suggesting you had. You said that "no one" was saying Cav should be thrown out of the race but your post implied that Tyler WAS saying that. That's all I meant.

 

[Winterfold]

The guy rode one of the Giro climbs faster than Contador.

Where's the proof of this time?

 

[Mambo95]

No, it's not strange at all. It's the peloton's version of Omerta, and Vaughters and Millar are two guys who go out of their way to not ruffle any feathers in the peloton when it comes to popular, powerful riders and teams. That's how the game works. Basically, they're both pu$$eys.

In that case, they could have just said nothing. But they didn't.

 

[patterson_hood]

Habeas corpus seems to be the appropriate response to the allegations.

 

[Winterfold]

The answer to this is pretty obvious to me.

162 Bernhard Eisel (Aut) HTC-Highroad 0:26:54
163 Danny Pate (USA) HTC-Highroad
164 Mark Cavendish (GBr) HTC-Highroad
165 Alessandro Vanotti (Ita) Liquigas-Cannondale
166 Samuel Dumoulin (Fra) Cofidis, Le Credit En Ligne

it's not fair that Cav has Bernie Eisel giving 125% for him on the valley floors when the other riders do not. having a domestique/mountain chaperone of that quality is tantamount to taking drugs, hanging onto cars, putting an engine in your downtube or any other form of cheating, oh, except this one is within the rules.

Please can we see the photos of all the riders who are NOT Cav hanging onto cars again - they probably need the publicity and will be very grateful for it.

 

[131313]

I wasn't suggesting you had. You said that "no one" was saying Cav should be thrown out of the race but your post implied that Tyler WAS saying that. That's all I meant.

OK, fair enough. Yeah, Tyler did say "he shouldn't even be in the effing race". But while I'm not going to speak for him, I guess his thoughts are more "they should be enforcing the rules", not "they should throw him out of the race based on what I think". It's not like it's Cav's first rodeo getting a ride to the top, so I think it's reasonable to expect the rules to be enforced, and to be disappointed when they aren't.

 

[131313]

In that case, they could have just said nothing. But they didn't.

there were trying to quell the storm Tyler created by mouthing off. That's what they do.

 

[Mambo95]

there were trying to quell the storm Tyler created by mouthing off. That's what they do.

What storm? No-one outside this forum seems to give a toss about what Farrar said.

 

[131313]

Where's the proof of this time?

He's never tested positive...

Sorry, it all sounds the same to me. All we have it Graeme Brown's work that he was in his group, then magically put 30 minutes into him on the climb. And some time splits from some forum members on the internet. And a cellphone pic.

I like Cav's credibility. You're right, I take it back.

 

[oldcrank]

People, you do realize that the Tour de France is sports entertainment
don't you? What we have here is just like in Professional Wrestling:
the tried and tested 'evil villain' vs. the 'squeaky clean choir boy'
designed to sell newspapers and tv ads and stir up the proletariat.

Everyone knows that 6-Day Racing is fixed, but even they aren't being
choreographed via race radio like Professional Road "Racing."

 

[Apollonius]

it's not fair that Cav has Bernie Eisel giving 125% for him on the valley floors when the other riders do not. having a domestique/mountain chaperone of that quality is tantamount to taking drugs, hanging onto cars, putting an engine in your downtube or any other form of cheating, oh, except this one is within the rules.

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same old story from the Cav haters. It's nothing but jealousy. You hear it here, you hear it in the peleton from lesser sprinters (Rojas, Farrar) - just accept he's the best and get on with it.

Nothing to stop the other teams from creating a team based around one elite rider, nothing to stop them using a specialised lead out train -but they wont because they don't have sprinters good enough to justify it so they just whine and moan about it instead.

 

[131313]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same old story from the Cav haters. It's nothing but jealousy. You hear it here, you hear it in the peleton from lesser sprinters (Rojas, Farrar) - just accept he's the best and get on with it.

Nothing to stop the other teams from creating a team based around one elite rider, nothing to stop them using a specialised lead out train -but they wont because they don't have sprinters good enough to justify it so they just whine and moan about it instead.

thanks for making my point. I think Cav even previews the stages. His cadence is really high, too....

 

[Apollonius]

How does that prove your point?

Also, where is all this data coming from? Source?

 

[Orvieto]

I'm increasingly of the view that in all riders should be required to use an approved power meter with data logging, and provide that data to the Tour organizers every night.

Not only would it be useful information for the anti-doping investigators, it would be a way to check for this kind of infraction.

I was thinking this myself as I perused the power estimates thread. This proposal deserves a thread of its own.

 

[Midnightfright]

So they're all doing it...

I'm sorry, how is this a ridiculous comparison, and how is the language to defend it any different? I'm just not seeing it.

Oh well, at least Rojas agrees with me: “We want a clean sport, not only in the fight against doping, but also about other things. We asked for a television camera to follow Cavendish in the race."

No one, and certainly not me, is saying that Cav should be 'thrown out of the race', just like I don't think someone should be tossed out just for suspicion of doping. What I am saying is that the organizers should actually care about the rules, and make an attempt to enforce them for all riders, even the big names. It's no different than doping, and the excuses are no different. The more excuses pile up, just like the last one, the more it reinforces my point.

What are you losing the rag about? I haven't claimed you said anything about throwing him out this race? Maybe I don't share a identical opinion to u but I actually said I think he probably has been holding to cars but thats just my opinion which is all I can go on as in yet to see any hard evidence. I also believe that other guys probably do as well. Who's making excuses? I'm just trying my best to be objective.

 

[Tyler'sTwin]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same old story from the Cav haters. It's nothing but jealousy. You hear it here, you hear it in the peleton from lesser sprinters (Rojas, Farrar) - just accept he's the best and get on with it.

You're just jealous of Tommy V.

 

[Libertine Seguros]

People, you do realize that the Tour de France is sports entertainment
don't you? What we have here is just like in Professional Wrestling:
the tried and tested 'evil villain' vs. the 'squeaky clean choir boy'
designed to sell newspapers and tv ads and stir up the proletariat.

Everyone knows that 6-Day Racing is fixed, but even they aren't being
choreographed via race radio like Professional Road "Racing."

If it was choreographed, then they're doing a really bad job of the 'entertainment' side of sports entertainment this year.

Not even the WWE has an injury rate like the Tour 2011.

If my crashing at 60kph is part of a script, I'm ad-libbing. Just saying.

 

[Damiano Machiavelli]

Yeah, yeah, yeah. Same old story from the Cav haters. It's nothing but jealousy. You hear it here, you hear it in the peleton from lesser sprinters (Rojas, Farrar) - just accept he's the best and get on with it.

It is easy to be the best when you are getting an illegal tow through the middle of the route while the other sprinters are busting their humps actually riding their bikes.

 

[samerics]

It is easy to be the best when you are getting an illegal tow through the middle of the route while the other sprinters are busting their humps actually riding their bikes.

I take it proof is on offer?

 

[jsem94]

RRE

Road Racing Entertainment