Of Doping, and Hanging onto Cars

[Dr. Maserati]

I think that's a bit harsh on Farrar. He did retract his comments later. Personally, with his complaining, I thought he'd finally become a 'proper' sprinter. They're meant to be bad losers.

Yes and no.

Agree it sounds very harsh (and as I say I like the guy) but he did lose and he was bitter about it.
But that's a good call that you want your sprinter to be peed off following a sprint.

 

[131313]

How far was Cav behind at the bottom of the last climb? How long did it take the grupetto to cover it?

If you have those numbers you may have enough to start something.


As much as i like Farrar - in this instance he is a bitter loser.
He lost to Cav and then bitterly complains about him.

He (they) should have complained straight after the stage.

Who's to say he didn't? Just because he didn't complainto the press, doesn't mean he didn't complain about it right after the stage. Complaining about it to the press generally doesn't help. Only the race officials can do anything about it. Look how it was dealt with then Rojas and Gilbert complained about it DURING the stage. The organizer of the race says he's just making excuses...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

This whole forum is always going on about riders not complaining when others get caught doping.

Ugh "this whole forum" - listen, I dont speak for this whole forum nor do you.

You want to try and debate what I say rather than trying to push a view I do not share?

Now when riders complain about cheating of another kind, they are bitter and should have kept their mouths shut. Why should someone who has been cheated keep quiet? Why should he not complain? If cycling is to move forward, the riders need to be able to call out the cheaters.

If they were cheated they should not remain quiet.

But yet again you have nothing.

Nice defense of omerta there, doctor.

This should be Lance's new defence: They are all bitter losers.

You want to bring up Lance to support your argument?

If Cav has a team mate who says they saw him get a tow - I will be happy to believe it.
If Cav is associated with a towing company then I might believe it.
If there is a foto of Cav getting a tow, I will believe it.
If the UCI are shown to have accepted a bribe to cover up a tow, I will believe it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Who's to say he didn't? Just because he didn't complainto the press, doesn't mean he didn't complain about it right after the stage. Complaining about it to the press generally doesn't help. Only the race officials can do anything about it. Look how it was dealt with then Rojas and Gilbert complained about it DURING the stage. The organizer of the race says he's just making excuses...

To the blue - but thats what he did. If he also complained to the comms I would assume he would have said that to the press also.

As for Gilbert:

However, Omega Pharma-Lotto manager Herman Frison contradicted Rojas's claim, saying: "Philippe has not complained. He just had a little chat with Pescheux. The conversation was not about Cavendish."

Which makes sense - as Pescheux is an organizer (not a comm for UCI) so there is no point in bringing it up to him.

 

[131313]

To the blue - but thats what he did. If he also complained to the comms I would assume he would have said that to the press also.

No, he wouldn't have, as he's generally pretty mum when talking to the press. As it is, he regrets saying anything publicly (as he's said in public).

As for Gilbert:


Which makes sense - as Pescheux is an organizer (not a comm for UCI) so there is no point in bringing it up to him.

I don't believe Gilbert's version for a second, but I have no evidence so I'll just say that's my simply my opinion. I think he's trying to not create a public sh!tstorm. I'd also think that the relationship between those organizing the race and those enforcing the rules is much more intertwined that you seem to suggest. If you feel the rules aren't being enforced by the commissaires, your next course of action is to complain to the event's organizer. This is the case from the most local race to the Tour, in every bike race in which I've ever participated. So Gilbert complaining to the organizer about it seems completely normal to me.

 

[Mambo95]

I don't believe Gilbert's version for a second, but I have no evidence so I'll just say that's my simply my opinion. I think he's trying to not create a public sh!tstorm. I'd also think that the relationship between those organizing the race and those enforcing the rules is much more intertwined that you seem to suggest. If you feel the rules aren't being enforced by the commissaires, your next course of action is to complain to the event's organizer. This is the case from the most local race to the Tour, in every bike race in which I've ever participated. So Gilbert complaining to the organizer about it seems completely normal to me.

He went to talk to the organisers straight after the sprint. He was complaining about Renshaw and Ventoso sprinting ahead of him. If he was going to complain about car hanging, why do it then? Was he surprised that Cavendish could beat him in a sprint?

Your desperation is taking you into the ridiculous.

Did you see the 'Taiwan' thread about Karpets 'deliberately pushing' Contador over. Did you see how daft his posts got? Well this is your version of that thread.

 

[131313]

Your desperation is taking you into the ridiculous.

Did you see the 'Taiwan' thread about Karpets 'deliberately pushing' Contador over. Did you see how daft his posts got? Well this is your version of that thread.

Why, because I believe Rojas' version of events WRT the conversation with the race director? Doesn't really seem that implausible to me.

 

[Mambo95]

Why, because I believe Rojas' version of events WRT the conversation with the race director? Doesn't really seem that implausible to me.

I should have made it clear I was referring to Gilbert, not Rojas.

But what did Rojas say he said to the race director? I'll need a source on this. I know he was reported to have said things to the press, although his Team Manager denied he'd ever said it and then defended Cavendish.

And why do you believe Rojas, who may not have actually said anything? He has everything to gain here. The biggest win of a journeyman career. Why do you believe him over the commisaires, ASO, broom wagon drivers and the Movistar manager. Is it because it's what you want to believe?

 

[Libertine Seguros]

Pssst - it's a bit early to call Rojas a journeyman. He's only had 2 teams and he's younger than Cavendish.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

No, he wouldn't have, as he's generally pretty mum when talking to the press. As it is, he regrets saying anything publicly (as he's said in public).

He should not regret saying something if it is true.

Farrar's difficulty is he suspects what has happened - making a claim and not being able to back it up was the foolish part.

I don't believe Gilbert's version for a second, but I have no evidence so I'll just say that's my simply my opinion. I think he's trying to not create a public sh!tstorm. I'd also think that the relationship between those organizing the race and those enforcing the rules is much more intertwined that you seem to suggest. If you feel the rules aren't being enforced by the commissaires, your next course of action is to complain to the event's organizer. This is the case from the most local race to the Tour, in every bike race in which I've ever participated. So Gilbert complaining to the organizer about it seems completely normal to me.

And the 'It" that you are referring to what Gilbert said doesn't make sense and has also been denied.

To the highlighted - of course there is a fair amount of overlap between the roles of organizer and comms, but those that have the ability to enforce the rules are the comm's, same in every race.

 

[131313]

Why do you believe him over the commisaires, ASO, broom wagon drivers and the Movistar manager. Is it because it's what you want to believe?

mainly because I have very, very little trust in all of the above, based on their past actions as it related to there complicity (or indifference) in enforcing the rules. And that, in a nutshell, is my point. It's fine that many seem to disagree with me, but that's simply my take on it.

 

[craig1985]

Lol so 131313 in a race where you've had a flat tyre you haven't paced up back up to the peloton using the various team cars or held onto a bottle for a few seconds longer than normal, or been dropped and haven't done everything you can to get back on?

This moral ground standing is starting to become annoying.

 

[131313]

Lol so 131313 in a race where you've had a flat tyre you haven't paced up back up to the peloton using the various team cars or held onto a bottle for a few seconds longer than normal, or been dropped and haven't done everything you can to get back on?

Yeah, I have. However, the genesis of this thread goes back to Cali a couple of years back when a teammate of mine was chasing back on after getting a flat (and, getting a draft from the cars while working through the caravan), and got passed by Cav and another LowRoad rider doing a tractor pull after they got dropped. They basically laughed at the domestic guy as they went past, as did the commissaire when he complained about it. Of course, it's one guy's word against another. There are no pictures, and no proof. And the guy's certainly not going to complain to the media about it (nor am I, except on this forum, anonymously), since we really need to be invited to that race.

But no, I've never grabbed a car after getting dropped.

This moral ground standing is starting to become annoying.

I see this as a pretty clear-cut case of right and wrong. Towing from the car to miss the time cut isn't the same as taking a helpful handup after a flat. I don't see this as moral high ground, I see it as a simple case of cheating, just like sticking a needle in your arm. That's how I see it, whether it annoys you or not.

 

[Ragerod]

lilyprotector posted these interviews in the professional cycling forum but they deserve to be in here too.

We had a lot of back and forth on the stage post yesterday about what Farrar was referring to. I had originally said I thought he was accusing Cavendish of doping, but after seeing the extended video that showed Farrar ranting about how Cav shouldn't have been in the race, I now agree with those who thought he was referring to car-pulling.

For those who were following this topic, there was an interview with Tyler today where he said that his comments were due to frustration and "at the end of the day, HTC did a perfect sprint and nailed it. It was just a dumb thing to say." When asked why people made inferences about Mark, Farrar said it's because he's the top sprinter in the world and "people are looking for reasons to doubt it. I fell into the trap a little bit too."

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/22825103/vp/43807261#43807261

Maybe more surprising there was an interview with Cav where he was asked about Tyler's comments, and he was quite gracious (let's be honest, I half expected him to rip Tyler a new one). He said it was a "misinterpretation of what Tyler said." He said the media were always looking to create stories and that suggestions that he didn't ride fair were most disrespectful to his teammates who had to drag him back to the group. He talks about how hard his team worked to get him back etc.

http://nbcsports.msnbc.com/id/22825103/vp/43807261#43807764

Ahhh, peace in the peloton ....

The interesting clip is in the interview with Cavendish and it's the second of him and Eisel behind the majority of the cars being filmed going up the mountain.

 

[I Watch Cycling In July]

'...'Farrar's difficulty is he suspects what has happened - making a claim and not being able to back it up was the foolish part.'...'

I also believe Farrar suspects Cavendish.

The giro foto of everyone except Cav getting a tow was interesting. Multiple riders from multiple teams getting a tow from a car containing multiple people. I bet some of those guys talked to some other guys in the peloton afterwards too. The riders will have very good information on who habitually gets a tow and who doesn't.

I think Farrar suspected Cavendish because he has some pretty reliable info on what Cav does if he is behind the gruppeto.

On the other hand, the choice about getting a tow is not one Cav has the luxury of making on his own behalf. He's a pro. His team probably wants him to hang onto the car and save his legs for winning on the Champs.

Remind you of any other ethical dilemma faced by cyclists?

 

[dbrower]

We like our credibility. We also like Cav's credibity.

We like cycling's credibilty.

We like the UCI's credibility.

We like the word credibility. The word credibility, and proof, gives us credibility. We bow down before Edward Bernays. We like italics. Italics gives us credibility.

Bravo. Well put.

-dB

 

[dbrower]

If the rules are going to be enforced fairly and uniformally surely it means no more sticky bottles, no more using the convoy to get back after a crash or when bringing bottles up, and no more hanging on to cars for spurious techical assistance? I can't remember how many `tows' Landis took when picking up yet another bottle on his now infamous ride .

Wow, that's the first time I've heard that one. Tip o' the hat for a new theory!

-dB

 

[patterson_hood]

Yeah, I have. However, the genesis of this thread goes back to Cali a couple of years back when a teammate of mine was chasing back on after getting a flat (and, getting a draft from the cars while working through the caravan), and got passed by Cav and another LowRoad rider doing a tractor pull after they got dropped. They basically laughed at the domestic guy as they went past, as did the commissaire when he complained about it. Of course, it's one guy's word against another. There are no pictures, and no proof. And the guy's certainly not going to complain to the media about it (nor am I, except on this forum, anonymously), since we really need to be invited to that race.

But no, I've never grabbed a car after getting dropped.

Ok, that's one example and I'm willing to believe you as I can't think of a reason why you'd make it up. To extrapolate that to every race he competes in is a bit much though. It's like saying someone once got a speeding ticket so that must mean that they speed every time they drive.

I see this as a pretty clear-cut case of right and wrong. Towing from the car to miss the time cut isn't the same as taking a helpful handup after a flat. I don't see this as moral high ground, I see it as a simple case of cheating, just like sticking a needle in your arm. That's how I see it, whether it annoys you or not.

If you are going to compare a tow to taking drugs then surely any help from a vehicle is cheating, whether it was because of a flat or you were dropped. Also surely you believe drafting cars is cheating and riders should be disqualified for that?

lilyprotector posted these interviews in the professional cycling forum but they deserve to be in here too.



The interesting clip is in the interview with Cavendish and it's the second of him and Eisel behind the majority of the cars being filmed going up the mountain.

So it turns out there were cameras and cars there and the only footage is of Cav not taking a tow but working extremely hard to get back to the grupetto.

It really seems as if Tyler has let his frustration boil over a bit and people are taking liberties with what he said, as he never said Cav was cheating.

As for Rojas, it's hardly an unbiased position to come from and I think he really needs to provide some proof.

 

[Hawkwood]

Wow, that's the first time I've heard that one. Tip o' the hat for a new theory!

-dB

At the time I thought apart from the tows why does this guy need so much water, and began to wonder whether it was to dliute something?

 

[thirteen]

At the time I thought apart from the tows why does this guy need so much water, and began to wonder whether it was to dliute something?

it was a very, very, very hot day.

 

[Hawkwood]

it was a very, very, very hot day.

I know, but the number of bottles he took was extraordinary. Isn't there a situation where you've taken so much water in that your kidneys can't cope?

 

[dsut4392]

I know, but the number of bottles he took was extraordinary. Isn't there a situation where you've taken so much water in that your kidneys can't cope?

If it's only water, then yes. But they also take electrolyte drinks, gels and other food.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I know, but the number of bottles he took was extraordinary. Isn't there a situation where you've taken so much water in that your kidneys can't cope?

It's OT but in this instance FL was not drinking that many of the bottles but pouring them over himself to cool down.

 

[craig1985]

Given that Cav got docked 20 points after the 88-man gruppetto finished outside the time limit, and because of the size, and quite rightly they were not all eliminated, it's fair to say he's not holding onto a team car, and if they wanted him to win the green jersey, he and everybody else wouldn't have been docked 20 points. Not that it matter's because if Rojas beats Cav in a flat sprint (especially in Paris) then Lance Armstrong is a paragon of clean cycling.