Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

[python]

i'll try one last time, sniper, (i hope you have noted that i simply give comments as i see fit - not claiming divinity or being more balanced or lack of mistakes. my record is often skeptical/critical of either side, you can attest to that)


what i think you are mistakenly replacing is the potential intent with the actual effect.

i have acknowledged a possibility that riis's strategy may have been a bit cheeky...

i myself, from the early days of the panel constitution informed the forum on each arbitrator's real record wrt to clen and spain and i noted that the israeli guy was born in the spanish speaking country and had connections to spain...

that said, we need concern ourselves with only one question - was the justice carried out and how likely it may have been compromised by the riis trip to israel ?

as i noted above, there is a very remote chance of the actual corruption b/c of the way the decisions are made through voting.


we can only guess as to WHY ashenden was dismissed by it is clear the israeli could not have (edit: unilaterally imposed) the decision even if he was 'bribed'.

i'm done with this issue.

 

[GJB123]

I except the answers to 3 and 4, which I had labled "less important".

I still don't see 1. why Israel?
You counter with "Why not Israel", but I've answered that already: because of the negative publicity it was inevitably going to create.
(Note also that it was a surprise to everybody, not just me, hearing that SAXO was going to Israel).

and 2. if so eager to go to Israel, why not next year? Clearly, not casting unnecessary doubt on AC's trial should be more important to Riis than winning sponsors in Israel.

Again, are you serious? Finding sponsors seems a tat more important to me for the survival of his cycling team than the fact that the Becca's and the sniper's of this world would frown upon the visit.

Regards
GJ

 

[sniper]

Consensus in the making: Riis' choice for Israel simply 'unlucky'

Again, are you serious? Finding sponsors seems a tat more important to me for the survival of his cycling team than the fact that the Becca's and the sniper's of this world would frown upon the visit.

Regards
GJ

Not if the visit and subsequent publicity means that Barak must now vote against AC in order to retain his and CAS' credibility.

I'm not saying the publicity WILL influence Barak's vote, I'm saying it MIGHT influence his vote. And the "might" should have been enough reason for riis not to go to Israel.

For the rrecord, it's not me coming up with the bad publicity. The bad publicity and question marks are there circulating in the international press, and will be there also if AC gets off. It could have been avoided easily by not going to Israel.

I agree though, as Python also indicates, that the visit to Israel may simply have been an 'unlucky' strategy by Riis. (Well, unlucky in as far as it casts obvious doubts on the impartiality of Barak.)

 

[GJB123]

Not if the visit and subsequent publicity means that Barak must now vote against AC in order to retain his and CAS' credibility.

Only in your and Becca's mind.

 

[sniper]

Only in your and Becca's mind.

Thanks for ignoring the modality markers "if" and "might".

Anyway, the whole debate was merely about whether the idea of a link between Saxo in Israel and AC's CLEN case is pure fiction, or whether it is a possibility.
I stay by the latter, which means that I'm not claiming the link, but merely positing it as a posibility.
(It seems necessary to spell it out for you, so I will.)

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I except the answers to 3 and 4, which I had labled "less important".

I still don't see 1. why Israel?
You counter with "Why not Israel", but I've answered that already: because of the negative publicity it was inevitably going to create.
(Note also that it was a surprise to everybody, not just me, hearing that SAXO was going to Israel).

No-one passed a bit of notice until Beccas comments.

Again, where is there a benefit for Barak? (who is a third of the panel) - Its a cycling school, he is a lawyer? Maybe its just me - but I prefer cash as bribes.

and 2. if so eager to go to Israel, why not next year? Clearly, not casting unnecessary doubt on AC's trial should be more important to Riis than winning sponsors in Israel.

As I already pointed out, this case was due to be over long before now, should they cancel an event that would have required some planning just because of some extremely loose connection brought up by the owner of another team? Not at all.


Your views stem from an earlier simplistic theory that CAS are like UCI or IOC - they are not, as there are quite a lot of safegaurds within their system as they are subject to international law.
It is a 3 person panel - each side selects one and CAS select the head.
There is a lot at steak in this case - some precedents will be made, and to avoid further appeal any decision must be watertight.

 

[sniper]

No-one passed a bit of notice
(...)

Of course, in case of a bribe, that's what Riis would have hoped for.

 

[sniper]

(...)
Again, where is there a benefit for Barak? (who is a third of the panel) - Its a cycling school, he is a lawyer? Maybe its just me - but I prefer cash as bribes.
(...)

It doesn't require much imagination to see how Barak could potentially have benefited.
Nepotism and other sorts of indirect profit arrangements are omni-present in the world of lawyers and (sports) policy makers.

I should stress "potentially", because I never claimed a bribe. I merely posited a bribe as a possibility as opposed to fiction.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Indeed, and 200 would be the figure I'd use. What makes IL a likely benificiary for any charity, sports or otherwise?
An exception would be when it would concern Palestinian riders, but that doesn't seem the case?

Yes, there are loads of countries that need it more than Israel, but let me tell you this: A huge part of these countries are dangerous, and have a bad infrastructure, bad climate + vegetation (you can't expect them to train in the rainforest or in the desert, alright.), plus, are expensive to travel to. Don't be such an ignorant fool.

 

[GJB123]

It doesn't require much imagination to see how Barak could potentially have benefited.
Nepotism and other sorts of indirect profit arrangements are omni-present in the world of lawyers and (sports) policy makers.

I should stress "potentially", because I never claimed a bribe. I merely posited a bribe as a possibility as opposed to fiction.

And subsequently required everyone to proof to you that a bribe wasn't the only and most likely answers to all your questions.

Regards
GJ

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Of course, in case of a bribe, that's what Riis would have hoped for.

Ok..... I am almost done but, if you are going to try and 'influence' a verdict, then going to the persons home country in a big splash of publicity is not really the smartest move.

It doesn't require much imagination to see how Barak could potentially have benefited.
Nepotism and other sorts of indirect profit arrangements are omni-present in the world of lawyers and (sports) policy makers.

I should stress "potentially", because I never claimed a bribe. I merely posited a bribe as a possibility as opposed to fiction.

There is also the possibility that Barak is a robot, controlled from the mothership.

 

[Moose McKnuckles]

I should stress "potentially", because I never claimed a bribe. I merely posited a bribe as a possibility as opposed to fiction.

Do you realize that, if you're going to bribe someone, it's better off done behind the scenes? So, instead of that, Saxo decides to do it in the loudest and most public manner? What?

 

[sniper]

Do you realize that, if you're going to bribe someone, it's better off done behind the scenes? So, instead of that, Saxo decides to do it in the loudest and most public manner? What?

I never said cyclists are smart.

It was dumb to go to Israel anyway. A moron could have figured out that it was going to cast suspicions on Barak's impartiality.

But ok, let's say Riis needed new sponsors and that the whole thing is a silly coincidence.

Bjarne Riis always has a surprise in store for his team-building sessions, and this year he continued that trend. Not only is Team Saxo Bank in Israel – believed to be the first time a top-ranked team has held its preparations there – but the riders will also build a school. A school for cyclists, of course.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/saxo-bank-team-members-building-a-school-in-israel

 

[sniper]

Indeed, it is likely that Riis went to Israel to profit from the good roads and expert training facilities:

Bjarne Riis has long been known for his unusual team training camps, which often incorporate some sort of survival exercises, and he is continuing that tradition. The 2012 Saxo Bank team will meet up ahead of next season for the first time this coming weekend in Israel.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/saxo-bank-holds-team-get-together-in-israel

--------------------

Do you realize that, if you're going to bribe someone, it's better off done behind the scenes? So, instead of that, Saxo decides to do it in the loudest and most public manner? What?

I never said cyclists are smart.

It was dumb to go to Israel anyway. A moron could have figured out that it was going to cast suspicions on Barak's impartiality.

But ok, let's say Riis needed new sponsors and that the whole thing is a silly coincidence.

Bjarne Riis always has a surprise in store for his team-building sessions, and this year he continued that trend. Not only is Team Saxo Bank in Israel – believed to be the first time a top-ranked team has held its preparations there – but the riders will also build a school. A school for cyclists, of course.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/saxo-bank-team-members-building-a-school-in-israel

 

[GJB123]

Right, just keep on digging! Give us a shout when you reach Australia, won't you?

 

[LaFlorecita]

-

Just... What are you trying to show us?

 

[LaFlorecita]

Ok..... I am almost done but, if you are going to try and 'influence' a verdict, then going to the persons home country in a big splash of publicity is not really the smartest move.

Don't try to talk sense in him, he won't get it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Indeed, it is likely that Riis went to Israel to profit from the good roads and expert training facilities:


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/saxo-bank-holds-team-get-together-in-israel

--------------------



I never said cyclists are smart.

It was dumb to go to Israel anyway. A moron could have figured out that it was going to cast suspicions on Barak's impartiality.

But ok, let's say Riis needed new sponsors and that the whole thing is a silly coincidence.


http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/saxo-bank-team-members-building-a-school-in-israel

Thats exactly what happened - a moron (Becca) has decided that visiting someones home country could influence a decision.
Lets hope he doesn't have a passport and never leaves Luxemburg because if he goes to France we must assume that he is buying a victory at the Tour.

 

[BroDeal]

Indeed, it is likely that Riis went to Israel to profit from the good roads and expert training facilities:

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/saxo-bank-holds-team-get-together-in-israel

--------------------

I never said cyclists are smart.

It was dumb to go to Israel anyway. A moron could have figured out that it was going to cast suspicions on Barak's impartiality.

But ok, let's say Riis needed new sponsors and that the whole thing is a silly coincidence.

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/saxo-bank-team-members-building-a-school-in-israel

Jeebus! Are you still slinging this crap? Look around, dude. The only one who is buying into your ridiculous conspiracy story is you. That is usually a pretty good sign that you might be a nut. You just got your ass handed to you on your wild allegations of McQuaid pulling a CN story. It's time to pull back and consider that you might be just as out there with this dubious Israeli bribery concoction.

 

[sniper]

Jeebus! Are you still slinging this crap? Look around, dude. The only one who is buying into your ridiculous conspiracy story is you. That is usually a pretty good sign that you might be a nut. You just got your ass handed to you on your wild allegations of McQuaid pulling a CN story. It's time to pull back and consider that you might be just as out there with this dubious Israeli bribery concoction.

Don't yell at me, gosh, I wasn't talking to you in the first place.

Anyway, I like a good argument, and I just had one.
And if you check my previous posts, you see I'm not afraid to modify my opinion. We were on the brink of a consensus.

Also, the world isn't going to get a hell of a lot smarter without some speculation. If debating is only about facts, then there'll be little debating. You need some speculation to gain new insights. For example, in the other thread I may have gotten my *** handed to me, but we got some interesting new details out there.
think progressive, brodeal

 

[Nilsson]

as in your caution to my reading of another issue(about the 3/3 arbitrators which i appreciated), i want to caution you that the issue of the permit validity may be tricky.

for example, and i have written about it many times, ricco also had the uci blood permit...should we doubt now that he needed it aand shouldn't we ask how did he get the uci to approve it ? besides, obviously, ricco used it as the means to snub his testers and the positive he finally failed.

i hope, the cas had a good look at that permit.

I understand your caution, but the fact is that only having high blood parameters isn't suspicious. In 'the old days' they had to set a limit (becaus it was all they had, and later on legally had (rembember Leipheimer @ Gerolsteiner, where they unofficially already had an off-score). If Contador doesn't have strange variations (or not-alike parameters) and doesn't exceed the OFF-score limits you can bet nothing is wrong, at least not from a 'legal' point of view.

The problem is that he's not as good as he is because he's normal, he's as good as he is because he's not. Is Contador a physical freak by nature or because he is (genetically) enhanced? It's very dangerous to state that just because someone is good, it's not natural and point to his (just very high) blood values. Far more interesting are his reticulocyte values (which can lead to transfusion or EPO-like use) and his OFF-scores.

Ricco indeed used his exemption, which gave him (and maybe also Contador and others) extra playroom - or more correct: playroom at an higher level. But I know that Ricco's passport didn't look that great. It indirectly got him caught and when he came back from his suspension various team-doctors gave there veto. With Contador, as far as I know, that's absolutely not the case - e.g. even Garmin would have signed him, at least in 2009...

 

[python]

<snip>

Ricco indeed used his exemption, which gave him (and maybe also Contador and others) extra playroom - or more correct: playroom at an higher level. But I know that Ricco's passport didn't look that great. It indirectly got him caught and when he came back from his suspension various team-doctors gave there veto. With Contador, as far as I know, that's absolutely not the case - e.g. even Garmin would have signed him, at least in 2009...

we could have an interesting (and perhaps more content-full) discussion about contador's blood passport vs his haematocrit/haemoglobin dispensation if we had the actual values. unfortunately, we lack such.

i don't automatically assume lack/presence of validity to contador's permit. i only cautioned the readers on the expanded room for foul play (you accept that) and the very real example of a recent cheat who had a similar situation.

one big issue that i implied and have to stress stronger again is that ricco was NOT caught by the uci yet given the permit by the uci.

ricco was caught by the afld on the basis of their limited pre-tour screening tests whilst the uci (it's a well known fact) withdrew blood passport data that year b/c of their spat with the afld.

iow, i caution against the uci much more than against the validity of the dispensation itself - that ricco had known blood passport that the uci did not act on and it took an aggressive afld to catch the cheat

another interesting caveat is that ashenden is a strong advocate of wider limits for haematocrit than the current 50%. iow, he advocates 52-53% - just where contador is alleged naturally.
....i'll get back to this later....

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I understand your caution, but the fact is that only having high blood parameters isn't suspicious. In 'the old days' they had to set a limit (becaus it was all they had, and later on legally had (rembember Leipheimer @ Gerolsteiner, where they unofficially already had an off-score). If Contador doesn't have strange variations (or not-alike parameters) and doesn't exceed the OFF-score limits you can bet nothing is wrong, at least not from a 'legal' point of view.

The problem is that he's not as good as he is because he's normal, he's as good as he is because he's not. Is Contador a physical freak by nature or because he is (genetically) enhanced? It's very dangerous to state that just because someone is good, it's not natural and point to his (just very high) blood values. Far more interesting are his reticulocyte values (which can lead to transfusion or EPO-like use) and his OFF-scores.

Ricco indeed used his exemption, which gave him (and maybe also Contador and others) extra playroom - or more correct: playroom at an higher level. But I know that Ricco's passport didn't look that great. It indirectly got him caught and when he came back from his suspension various team-doctors gave there veto. With Contador, as far as I know, that's absolutely not the case - e.g. even Garmin would have signed him, at least in 2009...

Careful - if the standard for Ricco is that his passport didn't look great the same was said about Contador:

There are suggestions that Contador may have been on the radar for some time. According to the Dutch journalist Mart Smeets, his biological passport has shown some irregularities and some experts felt that there were grounds to suspect him of possible blood doping.

To the blue - JV admitted on here that while they was an interest in Contador they had not seen his Biological Passport.

 

[LaFlorecita]

Careful - if the standard for Ricco is that his passport didn't look great the same was said about Contador:


To the blue - JV admitted on here that while they was an interest in Contador they had not seen his Biological Passport.

You should've posted the rest of that alinea as well :

The signs were reported as being subtle and it is thought that no firm consensus was reached between a panel of experts assigned to study the figures.

Btw, lol, Mart...

 

[BroDeal]

I understand your caution, but the fact is that only having high blood parameters isn't suspicious. In 'the old days' they had to set a limit (becaus it was all they had, and later on legally had (rembember Leipheimer @ Gerolsteiner, where they unofficially already had an off-score). If Contador doesn't have strange variations (or not-alike parameters) and doesn't exceed the OFF-score limits you can bet nothing is wrong, at least not from a 'legal' point of view.

The problem is that he's not as good as he is because he's normal, he's as good as he is because he's not. Is Contador a physical freak by nature or because he is (genetically) enhanced? It's very dangerous to state that just because someone is good, it's not natural and point to his (just very high) blood values. Far more interesting are his reticulocyte values (which can lead to transfusion or EPO-like use) and his OFF-scores.

Ricco indeed used his exemption, which gave him (and maybe also Contador and others) extra playroom - or more correct: playroom at an higher level. But I know that Ricco's passport didn't look that great. It indirectly got him caught and when he came back from his suspension various team-doctors gave there veto. With Contador, as far as I know, that's absolutely not the case - e.g. even Garmin would have signed him, at least in 2009...

It sounds like the big difference is that Ricco should have hired good doctors at an early age instead of flying by the seat of his own pants. Contador has been "managed" since he was a U23, and we know that the passport pretends that out of whack blood values from a few years ago do not exist.