Official Alberto Contador hearing thread

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Dr. Maserati

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Merckx index said:
Firstly, just wanted to say I enjoy your contributions on analysing the available information.

Merckx index said:
Moreover, even if we accept that he did bring the plasma along, this still doesn’t explain the one day discrepancy between the DEHP positive and the first CB positive that I discussed earlier. WADA might know all kinds of things about how riders blood dope that I don’t know, but the bottom line is that they have to explain why a transfusion occurred before the rest day, why it resulted in a positive for one substance but not another, and why a second transfusion not only was made at all, but why it resulted in a positive for the second substance but not the first.
I have mentioned it before :p but the discrepencey between the CB positive may have something to do with the tests up to and including the 20th being sent to Lausanne and the ones on the 21st and after going to Cologne, which we know has more sensitive equipment.

As an example - sample from the 20th may have had clen in it above what was discovered on the 21st (50pg/ml) but below what could be detected in Lausanne.

Merckx index said:
Understood. But this new link to what happened in the courtroom seems to provide some confirmation of the El Pais theory. I think we can definitely conclude that WADA’s approach involves separation of cells and plasma, rather than storage and transfusion of whole blood. The part about two separate transfusions is not directly confirmed, but implied by the statement that plasma was transfused, when they could have said cells reconstituted with plasma.
Two things here- as Python rightly pointed out, a bit of caution has to be taken in regards to what is being reported at the moment.
While I am not doubting the reporting from El Pais WADA will not be making any comment at all, so information is likely to be coming from the defense.

Just one question re saline or reinfusing with plasma - would there be a possibility that it was done to keep a 'normal' or consistent looking Bio Passport?
 
Jun 16, 2009
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LaFlorecita said:
And this: "In the report, Contador himself states that if he only fills three-quarters of a sample container, it is for hygienic reasons" What has this to do with the case?

Hes saying that any calc of his daily urine volume would be wrong because he doesn't leave a doping control with a completely empty tank.

And also this:" In 112 experiments using the WADA data, Tomás Martín Jiménez of the University of Tennessee found no scenario in which 50 picograms of clenbuterol could have been detected." That's quite a lot of experiments on one thing... :p

Actually, not really. If you were to come up with say 10 -20 ideas for how you could identify something to that accuracy and you wanted to test them then you could easily end up with well over 200 actual experiements that you would need to run. This is why you see those big machines in labs - so the tests can be automated.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
I have mentioned it before :p but the discrepencey between the CB positive may have something to do with the tests up to and including the 20th being sent to Lausanne and the ones on the 21st and after going to Cologne, which we know has more sensitive equipment.

As an example - sample from the 20th may have had clen in it above what was discovered on the 21st (50pg/ml) but below what could be detected in Lausanne.

Very interesting, I missed the implication. That would explain all the anomalies, except that he would be transfusing before the rest day. But also, if he did infuse on July 20, his 50 pg/ml value would have come more than twenty-four hours after transfusion, which means that estimates of how much he originally ingested go up considerably--to the point where he would have perhaps had to take more CB than one would expect even for PE. Instead of the 50 ug minimum I estimated earlier, the minimum would probably be around 80 ug, and the 200 ug value WADA is allegedly using would maybe go up to 300 ug or more, which is definitely too high.

There is an irony about these estimates. To a certain point, the higher the estimate of CB originally ingested, the more it favors the prosecution, as it means it couldn't have come from eating meat that passed the Euro standard. But once you get to that point, higher estimates favor the defense, because you have to postulate higher intentional dosing with CB, while the contaminated meat scenario just argues that the contamination was higher. Once you claim the meat did not pass the standard, you can pretty much argue it was any level of contamination you want.

Also: if he was an undetected positive for CB on July 20, that raises the possibility that he was an undetected positive even earlier. IOW, it brings into play a third alternative that was ruled out on the basis of the July 20 negative: that he was intentionally doping with CB during the Tour--or much more likely, just before the Tour. In this scenario, he stopped taking CB before the Tour, and his levels fell enough to pass the insensitive tests. But they remained high enough to test positive at Cologne. Whether this is possible would depend on when he was tested earlier in the Tour (I don't know these dates, obviously they are out there),and the sensitivity of the other lab hypothetically testing these earlier samples, and would take some serious pharmacokinetic analyses to support.

But the bottom line is, if he was positive for CB on July 20, it could open up a real can of worms. It would probably favor the prosecution, which could now argue another way the CB got into his system. If the kinetics worked out, they would not have to deal with the transfusion anomalies. They could argue that the positive DEHP on July 20 resulted from a real transfusion, but since they had another way to explain the CB, they would not pursue that any further.

Edit: Here’s a rough calculation. The half-life of CB clearance from plasma is about 35 hours, or a day and a half. The minimum standard of CB detection, or whatever they call it, is 2 ng/ml, or 40 times what Bert tested for. This means that if Bert (just) passed detection at this level on a certain date, it would have taken about 5-6 half-lives, or 7-9 days, for his levels to fall to 50 pg/ml. So by this calculation, if he was tested more than 9 days before July 21, July 12 or earlier, as I assume he was, this scenario would not work. Before July 12, he would have tested positive even at the most lax standard.

But the 35 hour half life only holds for the initial clearance of CB from the bloodstream. After that, clearance is much slower, because some of the CB is taken up by various tissues, and cleared from them over time. So in principle, he might have passed the 2 ng/ml standard before July 12, might have passed all the tests he was subjected to during the Tour.. But very complicated kinetics come into play at this point, with lots of assumptions and a very broad range of possibilities. Still, if you are right that he was not tested at Cologne for the July 20 sample, this would definitely be worth pursuing.

Just one question re saline or reinfusing with plasma - would there be a possibility that it was done to keep a 'normal' or consistent looking Bio Passport?

Saline would be just as good as plasma from the point of view of HT, Hb, reticulocytes and other blood parameters. There are substances in the bloodstream that I believe are tested in one of the other passports, the hormonal one, but a few hundred ml more or less of plasma are unlikely to affect those numbers significantly, even if tested for. OTOH, it's possible Bert thought that they might be affected, i.e., he felt transfusing plasma rather than saline would provide a more normal looking profile. I think what is needed here is the testimony of a former rider about how blood dopers do it.
 
May 15, 2011
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auscyclefan94 said:
Don't trust such rubbish. Polygraph tests are inaccurate and the fact that Alberto's defense team is hiring the guy is certainly a conflict of interest and has no remote credibility.

Have you read Publicus' post? Here it is:

Publicus said:
I wouldn't go that far. It's probative value is limited, but it is not a complete farce (e.g., Tyler's twin). Let's put it this way, Contador will give testimony before CAS as well. The panel will then consider his testimony and his propensity to tell the truth. There are a myriad of things that folks will point out as his incentive to lie. He has to counterbalance that in some manner (whether you agree with his position or not, he's attempting to defend himself), and frankly pointing to somewhat quirky, independent method to demonstrate his veracity is a helpful, but not dispositive, point.


That's the lawyer in me speaking.
 
Mar 17, 2009
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auscyclefan94 said:
Don't trust such rubbish. Polygraph tests are inaccurate and the fact that Alberto's defense team is hiring the guy is certainly a conflict of interest and has no remote credibility.

How is hiring the guy a conflict of interest? How do you know he has no credibility?
 
Feb 23, 2011
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Publicus said:
How is hiring the guy a conflict of interest? How do you know he has no credibility?

I think he meant that he is not impartial (as opposed to credible) as AC has paid his fee (as opposed to a court appointed expert). Having said that I dont know that the rules on evidence/disclosure apply in a sporting arbritration court in the same way as say a Civil Court.

Science aside if there was all this contaminate meat going around Europe, surely out of the 100's of Elite athletes tested there would be Clenbuterol positives being announced on a daily basis. Or are all Elite athletes vegetarians/rear their own cattle for beef consumption.

I wonder whether the quagmire of science in the AC case is actually obscuring the other facts & figures which on the face of it look pretty clear cut.
 
Sep 30, 2010
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Not all athletes are tested in the same facility and to the same sensitivities for a starter.

Regards
GJ
 
Feb 23, 2011
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GJB123 said:
Not all athletes are tested in the same facility and to the same sensitivities for a starter.

Regards
GJ

You are right but they are all testing for the same substances.

AC's claim is that a high percentage of beef that comes into the EU from South America is tainted by clenbuterol which if true would suggest that more athletes in the EU should be testing positive for it. For whatever reason this simply isnt the case so any defence based on this fact is fundamentally flawed.
 

Dr. Maserati

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GJB123 said:
Not all athletes are tested in the same facility and to the same sensitivities for a starter.

Regards
GJ

While the above is true the Cologne laboratory analysed a total of 13,454 tests in 2010 alone.
Obviously not all are subject to testing for CB, but even if we to give a very conservative statistic of just 1% then if clen is pervasive it would trigger over 130 positives.

Add to that, from memory - Cologne is one of 5 laboratories that has very sensitive equipment.
 
Mar 19, 2009
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Dr. Maserati said:
While the above is true the Cologne laboratory analysed a total of 13,454 tests in 2010 alone.
Obviously not all are subject to testing for CB, but even if we to give a very conservative statistic of just 1% then if clen is pervasive it would trigger over 130 positives.

Add to that, from memory - Cologne is one of 5 laboratories that has very sensitive equipment.

Hear, hear!!

Now that's not something that the defense will want to explain by establish statistical science.
 
Oct 16, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
While the above is true the Cologne laboratory analysed a total of 13,454 tests in 2010 alone.
Obviously not all are subject to testing for CB, but even if we to give a very conservative statistic of just 1% then if clen is pervasive it would trigger over 130 positives.

Add to that, from memory - Cologne is one of 5 laboratories that has very sensitive equipment.

If CLEN were pervasive, that doesn't mean that each person within that 1% of tested persosns would have eaten contaminated meat. Perhaps take off another zero, and we're left with 13 expected positives for Cologne. 13 times 5 (number of labs with similar equipment) gives us 65 expected positives Europe-wide for 2010.
 
Feb 23, 2011
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sniper said:
If CLEN were pervasive, that doesn't mean that each person within that 1% of tested persosns would have eaten contaminated meat. Perhaps take off another zero, and we're left with 13 expected positives for Cologne. 13 times 5 (number of labs with similar equipment) gives us 65 expected positives Europe-wide for 2010.

That means that AC is just a really unlucky bloke..............not. Who just happens to be a multi grand tour winner, who used to ride for Manolo Saiz, Johan Bruyneel, Vinokourov and now Riis.
 

Dr. Maserati

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sniper said:
If CLEN were pervasive, that doesn't mean that each person within that 1% of tested persosns would have eaten contaminated meat. Perhaps take off another zero, and we're left with 13 expected positives for Cologne. 13 times 5 (number of labs with similar equipment) gives us 65 expected positives Europe-wide for 2010.

Well the point is that 'we' are saying that clen is pervasive - so one would assume that the majority are carnivores and will have consumed meat.

That is indeed why there has been a dramatic increase in clen positives from China and Mexico.
 
Apr 18, 2010
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Dr. Maserati said:
Well the point is that 'we' are saying that clen is pervasive - so one would assume that the majority are carnivores and will have consumed meat.

That is indeed why there has been a dramatic increase in clen positives from China and Mexico.

the question is why has the number increased as the clen use in Mexico and China is not something new. Is it something that we are just more aware today?
I am going to try playing devil's advocate
Only a handful of athletes get tested for cb at a particular lab able to detect the a amount found in contador's system, and how many have eaten meat within the time frame for clen to be detected, now we will also have to stablish the prevalence of clen in EU cattle. the equation would look like the green bank formula.
 

Dr. Maserati

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robertocarlos said:
the question is why has the number increased as the clen use in Mexico and China is not something new. Is it something that we are just more aware today?

This goes back to the original point that started this, which is that more modern testing equipment is more sensitive and can now detect to lower levels.
 

Polish

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Dr. Maserati said:
Well the point is that 'we' are saying that clen is pervasive - so one would assume that the majority are carnivores and will have consumed meat.

That is indeed why there has been a dramatic increase in clen positives from China and Mexico.


It IS possible that clen is so RARE in Spanish meat that we would only see a positive clen result in a pro cyclist every ten years or so. The sensitive clen test has only been around for a couple years....

Alberto's Defense could crunch the numbers to show how many Clen Cows per total Spanish Cow Population it would take to give one positive pro cyclist test every ten years. They have math dudettes on their team. Crunch the numbers. It would only take very few cows. 20? 40? Out of hundreds of thousands of cows moo.

The Spanish Beef lobby would probably agree. Very few cows required to give a positive pro cyclist test result every ten years or so.

What I want to know - If Clen is such a great PED, why have there been so few positive tests at the TdF?
 
Oct 30, 2011
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Polish said:
It IS possible that clen is so RARE in Spanish meat that we would only see a positive clen result in a pro cyclist every ten years or so. The sensitive clen test has only been around for a couple years....

Alberto's Defense could crunch the numbers to show how many Clen Cows per total Spanish Cow Population it would take to give one positive pro cyclist test every ten years. They have math dudettes on their team. Crunch the numbers. It would only take very few cows. 20? 40? Out of hundreds of thousands of cows moo.

The Spanish Beef lobby would probably agree. Very few cows required to give a positive pro cyclist test result every ten years or so.

What I want to know - If Clen is such a great PED, why have there been so few positive tests at the TdF?

For the same reason that there are very few anyway - little will to catch the cheaters. Also, clen is good for losing excess fat and maintaining the muscle - very much an off-season drug.
 

Dr. Maserati

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Polish said:
It IS possible that clen is so RARE in Spanish meat that we would only see a positive clen result in a pro cyclist every ten years or so. The sensitive clen test has only been around for a couple years....

Alberto's Defense could crunch the numbers to show how many Clen Cows per total Spanish Cow Population it would take to give one positive pro cyclist test every ten years. They have math dudettes on their team. Crunch the numbers. It would only take very few cows. 20? 40? Out of hundreds of thousands of cows moo.

The Spanish Beef lobby would probably agree. Very few cows required to give a positive pro cyclist test result every ten years or so.

What I want to know - If Clen is such a great PED, why have there been so few positive tests at the TdF?
How rare do you think it is, rare, medium, blue?

Yes, Spanish cows have a great reputation in bovine testing, they even have a whereabouts system like ADAMS.
But in Mexico bovine doping is just like cycling doping in Spain - although there are more mad cows in cycling.
They have no whereabouts system in Mexico, in fact I read a story where a chicken thought he was in Mexico, but it turned out he was in Italy.
 
Nov 21, 2011
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I have seen TAS taking wrong decisions in football where insufficient proof had been provided and then go back upon new hearings to correct it. On the other hand they are quite the bureaucrats and like the letter of the law a lot. So in the end, I guess it will all depend on how convincing Contador has been and if he gave enough solid arguments for the judges to justify forgiveness.

I have high doubts that cycling will become a cleaner sport if Contador gets banned (the cost of proper doping is too small compared to the amounts that the top 20 riders can win) on the other hand I wouldn't mind all that much if it happens. Though I guess I would mind all the luxemburgo-italian whining that will follow (how they were cheated out of jumping up and down on a podium).
 
Mar 19, 2009
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LaFlorecita said:
You're really pathetic, you know that?
An insult from you is a great compliment to me, so thank you.

@Vino attacks everyone
I didn't have 100% respect for the guy in terms of being bad-***. Basically his reputation with me started as being a little wussy.
He's over the years worked with the best (liars, manipulators, bullies), and it's brushing off on him nicely. He's come a long way IMO. One day he lets his wheels be stolen by a teammate, the next he's lying to a CAS panel for 15 minutes on end before they spend some months deciding his fate.
He's even better at beating a lie detector than the average human. He's seriously bad-azs!
 
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