Official "another interesting piece I found on Floyd Landis" Thread

[lean mean &green]

This only demonstrated how stupid and ingenuous most Americans are when it comes to doping in sports and how easily they are given over to an access of sentimentality, when the athlete in question is one of their own.

If Landis had been say French, Belgian, Spanish, Dutch or Italian, there is absolutely no way he could have successfully hoodwinked the public for so long, at least not in terms of making them actually believing his innocence, like he was able to deceive and defraud the American public in this regard. Only in America could one have orchestated such a colossal plan of willful deceit and fraud, and have earned so much credit for it in setting up an organization that thousands and tens of thousands of thoroughly mindless and stupid Americans would have actually contributed to monetarily. So, as I see it, those Amercans are partly to blame for their ridiculous gulability and childish innocence first and for funding hims second.

After all, anything that happens in France is suspicious, and we must never trust the French, who are a thoroughly dishonest and depraved people as everybody knows, that are always up to no good and have got it in for America and the American people in general.

Landis wagered a bet in playing upon this anti-French sentiment that prevails among the American people, having been a pupil as he was of the greatest Frankish opportunist and US manipulator of them all, Lance Armstrong, and it was nearly a winning bet. Having learned from the Yankee pide piper Lance himself, Floyd appealed to the American people's deepest patriotic and jingoistic sentiments, and if it hadn't been for all the overbeaing scientific evidence, would have easily won his public cause by a landslide. This only demonstrates how easily the American people are given over to being defrauded by a carefully orchestrated and well played-up conspiracy in the media outlets against them, which is natually appalling.

Having said that, and not having been one that was hoodwinked by his ludicrous affirmations and scandalous comportment, I have to say the man seems to me today more the victim of a totally corrupt and depraved system, than of his own poor decisions, whereas Armstrong was the system personified and so will receive no forbearance. Because he paid the heavy price of his career, his credibility and his psychological wellbeing, I find it difficult now to dwell on the gross errors of his past. Especially since the guy has contributed significantly to finally exposing the greatest defrauder of them all, Armstrong, while things like his letter to Hein Verbruggen was just a sporting masterpiece for its witty rebutle, satire and caustic criticism of a system that doesn't just need to be reformed, but totally rebuilt from scratch.

characterizing all americans as naive overly-nationalistic imbeciles is mentally lazy on your part. the fairness fund was driven by donations from a few wealthy elite supporters. beer swilling 'mericans didn't flock to floyd's defense in the way that you claim. the average american cares about cycling, and only minimally so, for about 3 weeks a year. the more passionate fan base is a very complex cross section i wouldn't even pretend to be able to make generalizations about.

shamed athletes from all countries have and will continue to successfully exploit national pride when caught.

floyd's story is complex and although the system appears to be corrupt, he is not a victim. he's now establishing a pattern of more responsible behavior that most sensible people can appreciate. for some of the reasons you've mentioned i've mostly let him out of my dog house but each of us is free to do so when they feel like it.

 

[ChrisE]

You disappoint me Brodeal, I thought you could be a bit more objective than this.

No, this may be hard for you to fathom but he just hates LA more than you do. If you really concentrate on cultivating your hate to a feverish level, you too will discover all this FL stuff from 2006 to May 2010 was just a bunch of tomfoolery cooked up by the evil French. Brodeal plans to go elevate his synthetic testosterone level tonight before the century ride this weekend by drinking a 12 pack.

You will need to move of course when you reach this level of hate/French bashing. You would feel right at home in the UK, or Houston. You could come live here, but I doubt you could handle all of the good healthcare in this country.

BTW, hope you are doing well.

 

[andy1234]

ChrisE, I don't know if you've considered this, but people can like and dislike different aspects of a person and their behaviour without being a raging hypocrite. On the subject of FL, most people on the clinic will dislike his doping, but like his present honesty. They'll dislike his conduct during various trials, but appreciate the work he's done since then. I'm sure quite a few think he seems like an alright guy in some respects, but would agree that he was cruel to LeMond. And I expect that many think his problems are all his fault, but also have some sympathy for a man who has been utterly broken by doping.

In the same vein, I love my dad, but the guy drives me nuts. Just because someone praises something positive about someone doesn't mean they're ignoring everything negative. Maybe some are, but why bother trying to talk sense into someone who believes FL is an angel?

You clearly need to spend more time around here, my warm, huggy friend.

Floyd Landis is admired around here because he openly attacks Lance Armstrong. Simple.

The fabulously numerous f**k ups,that pepper the Landis timeline, can be overlooked because of this one thing.

He may be a liar and a cheat, but hes the Haters liar and cheat.

Say after me.... "your'e either wit us or aginst us"

 

[Cimacoppi49]

You clearly need to spend more time around here, my warm, huggy friend.

Floyd Landis is admired around here because he openly attacks Lance Armstrong. Simple.

The fabulously numerous f**k ups,that pepper the Landis timeline, can be overlooked because of this one thing.

He may be a liar and a cheat, but hes the Haters liar and cheat.

Say after me.... "your'e either wit us or aginst us"

Admired for coming clean, perhaps. Much the same for Hamilton. You can be against doping and fraud which will automatically put you at odds with Armstrong and his minions.

 

[fatandfast]

What I'm suggesting is that what you're seeing as "revisionist history" is partly seeming that way because you only see one snippet of someone's opinion at a time.

I wonder if you know what revisionist history is - revisionist history is actually challenging, in the face of overwhelming evidence against you, the generally accepted version of "facts". Holocaust denial is the most obvious and possibly the most odious example of this.

What you're describing is people re-evaluating someone's character based on events between now and then. When Floyd denied everything and so much was clearly untrue, why would you trust anything he said? Now that he's told a different, clearly more truthful version of events, it seems reasonable to re-evaluate some of the assumptions about events you made, based on your previous perception of his character.

If it were the other way round, everyone would do the same. Consider an example where someone of good standing has told you many seemingly improbable things, but you accept them because the person is held to be trustworthy. If something then happens which shows that many of the things this person has said are lies, it's entirely reasonable to question the ones you don't yet know about.

really? In the skull landscape you see some way to tie the holocaust to anything Landis??
Landis is not completely crushed he just needs to go back to what he knows how to do, and fast. At 45 or 50 he will have a hard time w side by side training w a 20 year old or elite 2 or 3 sport athletes.

Landis knows how to get to the show, start selling the knowledge. His writing career or race car driver dreams will fade faster than a ring tone super store or a 50,000 sq ft Macarena dance studio, enough with the fads boy. Plus how many racers live in his neighborhood ? 20 or 30 at best. Go down to the city and get riding. 3 days a week SD 3 days a week in LA, Once or twice a month go to Vegas. He better hurry up and stop waiting for another speaking tour invite to Australia or NYC media tour, it's over. Put an ad on the back of the Reader, it's cheap.

 

[Polish]

Maybe he has been cooperative.

Thats really funny lol.

Admired for coming clean, perhaps. Much the same for Hamilton. You can be against doping and fraud which will automatically put you at odds with Armstrong and his minions.

Floyd did not "come clean".
He had to be chased down, surrounded, shot with tranquilizers.
And he still fought grrrrr.
Like a true honey badger.

And if Floyd had to do it all over again, I doubt he would take the "come clean" route.
Instead, he just would make sure not to get caught.
Live and learn.

 

[ChrisE]

FL came clean because LA wouldn't give him a job on RS, period. If that would have happened, this forum would have about 1/4 the post count and FL would still be ridiculed by all.

Biggest mistake LA ever made by far was not giving FL a job. I look forward to having more "integrity" if I am ever broke. Nice consolation prize.

Real integrity is when you stand up for something when you have alot to loose.

 

[rhubroma]

characterizing all americans as naive overly-nationalistic imbeciles is mentally lazy on your part. the fairness fund was driven by donations from a few wealthy elite supporters. beer swilling 'mericans didn't flock to floyd's defense in the way that you claim. the average american cares about cycling, and only minimally so, for about 3 weeks a year. the more passionate fan base is a very complex cross section i wouldn't even pretend to be able to make generalizations about.

shamed athletes from all countries have and will continue to successfully exploit national pride when caught.

floyd's story is complex and although the system appears to be corrupt, he is not a victim. he's now establishing a pattern of more responsible behavior that most sensible people can appreciate. for some of the reasons you've mentioned i've mostly let him out of my dog house but each of us is free to do so when they feel like it.

Nope, I have just perfected the art of exaggeration.

 

[Benotti69]

FL came clean because LA wouldn't give him a job on RS, period. If that would have happened, this forum would have about 1/4 the post count and FL would still be ridiculed by all.

Biggest mistake LA ever made by far was not giving FL a job. I look forward to having more "integrity" if I am ever broke. Nice consolation prize.

Real integrity is when you stand up for something when you have alot to loose.

When someone cheats and dopes integrity does not exist. When one decides to own up to ones dishonesty one reclaims a small bit of integrity. Landis does not have much integrity but he does have 100% more than any one cheating with PEDs

 

[ChrisE]

When someone cheats and dopes integrity does not exist. When one decides to own up to ones dishonesty one reclaims a small bit of that integrity. Landis does not have much integrity but he does have 100% more than any one cheating with PEDs

It's when and under what circumstances that integrity occurs is the point. Again, in case you missed it rushing to defend FL....if LA would have given him a job he wouldn't have this integrity IMO. YMMV.

 

[Benotti69]

It's when and under what circumstances that integrity occurs is the point. Again, in case you missed it rushing to defend FL....if LA would have given him a job he wouldn't have this integrity IMO. YMMV.

I read what you wrote, the manner of Landis speaking out in order to hurt Armstrong and his cohorts in my book restores some integrity, but you dont see it like that do you as a fan of Armstrong.

 

[thehog]

FL came clean because LA wouldn't give him a job on RS, period. If that would have happened, this forum would have about 1/4 the post count and FL would still be ridiculed by all.

Biggest mistake LA ever made by far was not giving FL a job. I look forward to having more "integrity" if I am ever broke. Nice consolation prize.

Real integrity is when you stand up for something when you have alot to loose.

This I agree with.... Armstrong's biggest mistake was not taking care of old friends. You should always be a friend first before anything. The way Floyd sees it he kept "the secret" for years and Armstrong owed him. As soon as Armstrong came back & set up his own team he should have known former friends would want to ride again.

The part I don't understand is why McQuaid was so hard on Tyler & Floyd. Why did he not want them to ride for any team ever again after suspensions served... (Tinkoff etc.).... MvQuaid knows that Armstrong doped & Floyd / Tyler knew the entire story. He should have protected the sham by allowing them to be signed by Pro teams.

I guess Armstrong, McQuaid etc. banked on that no one was going to go nuclear... and if they did no one would believe them.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

characterizing all americans as naive overly-nationalistic imbeciles is mentally lazy on your part. the fairness fund was driven by donations from a few wealthy elite supporters. beer swilling 'mericans didn't flock to floyd's defense in the way that you claim. the average american cares about cycling, and only minimally so, for about 3 weeks a year. the more passionate fan base is a very complex cross section i wouldn't even pretend to be able to make generalizations about.

shamed athletes from all countries have and will continue to successfully exploit national pride when caught.

I liked rubromas post - but you are correct to point out that it is not just the 'beer swilling yanks' that can be manipulated by being called to patriotic duty.

Richard Virenque divided a nation that should have known better before finally admitting his doping.

floyd's story is complex and although the system appears to be corrupt, he is not a victim. he's now establishing a pattern of more responsible behavior that most sensible people can appreciate. for some of the reasons you've mentioned i've mostly let him out of my dog house but each of us is free to do so when they feel like it.

Nail on head.
That is what took Floyd a long time to discover - and only because he had exhausted every legal and illegal avenue and was left with nothing.

 

[Cobblestoned]

FL came clean because LA wouldn't give him a job on RS, period. If that would have happened, this forum would have about 1/4 the post count and FL would still be ridiculed by all.

Biggest mistake LA ever made by far was not giving FL a job. I look forward to having more "integrity" if I am ever broke. Nice consolation prize.

Real integrity is when you stand up for something when you have alot to loose.

AMEN to that.
But too sophisticated for the ordinary people.
It's really a shame, because somehow the Big Lelandis is cool like the dude.
I think he regrets what he has done to Lance. Uncool and full ***.

"I woke up this morning, read the letter then thought, 'What am I going to have for breakfast?'"

Yeah, that would have been my thought, too.

Of course having a White Russian and White Russian for breakfast can't be wrong, Floyd

 

[ChrisE]

I read what you wrote, the manner of Landis speaking out in order to hurt Armstrong and his cohorts in my book restores some integrity, but you dont see it like that do you as a fan of Armstrong.

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It all gets confusing doesn't it? One day FL is a lying clown, the next day after he jams LA we are confronted with the confusing situation where we don't know whether to call him a liar when he says he knows nothing about hacking LNDD computers, or whether to give him a pass now when he still claims he has no idea how synthetic testosterone got into his system. By coincidence, not admitting that keeps him out of some legal troubles. What a shock.

So no, I don't see it like you do whether I am a fan, ie non-hater in binary clinic world, or not of LA.

FL could have changed the sport, and perhaps all sports, if he would have admitted at the time of the AAF that he did it, and spilled what he knew about the culture.

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I understand why he didn't admit then, and why he chose to lie and fight with BS. But, I don't whitewash that lack of integrity at that time, and overinflate his integrity now just because LA was mean to him.

 

[ChrisE]

The part I don't understand is why McQuaid was so hard on Tyler & Floyd. Why did he not want them to ride for any team ever again after suspensions served... (Tinkoff etc.).... MvQuaid knows that Armstrong doped & Floyd / Tyler knew the entire story. He should have protected the sham by allowing them to be signed by Pro teams.

I guess Armstrong, McQuaid etc. banked on that no one was going to go nuclear... and if they did no one would believe them.

Stop the presses, the hog and I are agreeing.

I dunno why the selective blackballing. The chicken gets blackballed, Basso is welcomed back with open arms....

Yes, they should have been allowed to ride for the reasons you state, ie to entice them to stfu, and on a tangent if they served their suspensions they should be able to compete IMO but I digress.

It is mind boggling that people that could blow the top off of this whole thing were treated like that. Now, shyt is coming home to roost with FL. Hopefully the whole sport is blown up. Yes, they thought nobody would go rogue. They thought wrong.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I see how somebody with your limited intellectual capabilities could get caught up in results instead of methods.

It all gets confusing doesn't it? One day FL is a lying clown, the next day after he jams LA we are confronted with the confusing situation where we don't know whether to call him a liar when he says he knows nothing about hacking LNDD computers, or whether to give him a pass now when he still claims he has no idea how synthetic testosterone got into his system. By coincidence, not admitting that keeps him out of some legal troubles. What a shock.

So no, I don't see it like you do whether I am a fan, ie non-hater in binary clinic world, or not of LA.

FL could have changed the sport, and perhaps all sports, if he would have admitted at the time of the AAF that he did it, and spilled what he knew about the culture.

He could have done much more good at that time than he is doing now, and for the benefit of adding to your stash of masterbation material, the deeds done on USPS would be much more fresh for prosecution and LA's 7 titles would be within the 8 year statute. Can you imagine the orgasm in the clinic if that was in play?

I understand why he didn't admit then, and why he chose to lie and fight with BS. But, I don't whitewash that lack of integrity at that time, and overinflate his integrity now just because LA was mean to him.

To the highlighted - no, not really.

If he had incriminated others (ie LA, or USPS) then he would have been dismissed as bitter, crazy, drunk etc, this also would have been supported by the UCI.
No-one else would bother to investigate.

The difference now is that the Feds are in charge of the investigation.

However, in 2006 he would have been a lot smarter to accept his fate quicker - plead ignorance, put the positive down to drinking JD from a French glass and don't burn any bridges with LA or UCI and come back quietly.

 

[Cobblestoned]

I see how somebody with your limited intellectual capabilities could get caught up in results instead of methods.

It all gets confusing doesn't it? One day FL is a lying clown, the next day after he jams LA we are confronted with the confusing situation where we don't know whether to call him a liar when he says he knows nothing about hacking LNDD computers, or whether to give him a pass now when he still claims he has no idea how synthetic testosterone got into his system. By coincidence, not admitting that keeps him out of some legal troubles. What a shock.

So no, I don't see it like you do whether I am a fan, ie non-hater in binary clinic world, or not of LA.

FL could have changed the sport, and perhaps all sports, if he would have admitted at the time of the AAF that he did it, and spilled what he knew about the culture.

He could have done much more good at that time than he is doing now, and for the benefit of adding to your stash of masterbation material, the deeds done on USPS would be much more fresh for prosecution and LA's 7 titles would be within the 8 year statute. Can you imagine the orgasm in the clinic if that was in play?

I understand why he didn't admit then, and why he chose to lie and fight with BS. But, I don't whitewash that lack of integrity at that time, and overinflate his integrity now just because LA was mean to him.

AMEN again.
Full agreement.
+1.000.000
+
1 new word
+
1 new US style "expression", German word is funny, but I refuse to post it

 

[thehog]

Stop the presses, the hog and I are agreeing.

I dunno why the selective blackballing. The chicken gets blackballed, Basso is welcomed back with open arms....

Yes, they should have been allowed to ride for the reasons you state, ie to entice them to stfu, and on a tangent if they served their suspensions they should be able to compete IMO but I digress.

It is mind boggling that people that could blow the top off of this whole thing were treated like that. Now, shyt is coming home to roost with FL. Hopefully the whole sport is blown up. Yes, they thought nobody would go rogue. They thought wrong.

I agree with most of your posts.

I think with Basso he admitted selectively, said he was sorry and was allowed back. I think the key is to say you doped & doped alone. Like Riis's confession.

It will be interesting to see how McQuaid handles Valverde's comeback..... Will he be allowed back without saying sorry?

Ullrich is another.... he's not much different than Basso but never said sorry.

I don't mind Floyd. I like that he's a realist. He acknowledges that if Armstrong didn't win someone else who was doping would have. He also acknowledges Armstrong was a darn good bike racer - which is true.

I like Armstrong - but I think by doping the entire team it lead to a certain type of racing which was boring. When Armstrong was grafting out wins the hardway he was much more enjoyable to watch. Some of his early one day wins were epic. I loved when he raced like that....

Anyway I digress......

 

[Dr. Maserati]

You clearly need to spend more time around here, my warm, huggy friend.

Floyd Landis is admired around here because he openly attacks Lance Armstrong. Simple.

The fabulously numerous f**k ups,that pepper the Landis timeline, can be overlooked because of this one thing.

He may be a liar and a cheat, but hes the Haters liar and cheat.

Say after me.... "your'e either wit us or aginst us"

Interesting - I am sure you will remind us soon that you are not a fan of LA.

The exact same observation about Landis could be used in relation to Joe Papp - but of couse that would mean your point is worthless, oh wait....

 

[ChrisE]

To the highlighted - no, not really.

If he had incriminated others (ie LA, or USPS) then he would have been dismissed as bitter, crazy, drunk etc, this also would have been supported by the UCI.
No-one else would bother to investigate.

The difference now is that the Feds are in charge of the investigation.

However, in 2006 he would have been a lot smarter to accept his fate quicker - plead ignorance, put the positive down to drinking JD from a French glass and don't burn any bridges with LA or UCI and come back quietly.

Yes, yes really. I swear!

Why wouldn't a federal investigation happened in 2006 if he admitted doping was happening on USPS when he was there? I think it was much more likely to be investigated then, and the rubes in the general public wouldn't be so quick to label him a bitter hater making up stuff.

But, that is ok doc you can think what you want....and I will not jam your opinion by saying "no, not really". I do appreciate your expertise in washing opinions thru the reality machine, and unfortunately I have gotten caught here in your factual jaws of life. Do you have a link for your opinion on what would have happened in 2006 if he would have squealed then?

I agree he should have accepted his fate as opposed to what he did, if he didn't have the "integrity" at that time to blow the lid off lol.

 

[ChrisE]

I agree with most of your posts.

I think with Basso he admitted selectively, said he was sorry and was allowed back. I think the key is to say you doped & doped alone. Like Riis's confession.

It will be interesting to see how McQuaid handles Valverde's comeback..... Will he be allowed back without saying sorry?

Ullrich is another.... he's not much different than Basso but never said sorry.

I don't mind Floyd. I like that he's a realist. He acknowledges that if Armstrong didn't win someone else who was doping would have. He also acknowledges Armstrong was a darn good bike racer - which is true.

I like Armstrong - but I think by doping the entire team it lead to a certain type of racing which was boring. When Armstrong was grafting out wins the hardway he was much more enjoyable to watch. Some of his early one day wins were epic. I loved when he raced like that....

Anyway I digress......

Are you off your meds? Or has flicker hijacked the hog's username?

So, if LA just doped instead of the team doping, he would be ok in your eyes? What about the cancer patients being duped into believing in something to give them hope? What about those victimized competitors like JU, Vino, Rumsas, Beloki that fell prey to the doper LA?

You would put up with that scandalous activity if GH got dropped in the first KM of the Tourmalet instead of the 10th?

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Yes, yes really. I swear!

Why wouldn't a federal investigation happened in 2006 if he admitted doping was happening on USPS when he was there? I think it was much more likely to be investigated then, and the rubes in the general public wouldn't be so quick to label him a bitter hater making up stuff.

Why would it?
Did a Federal investigation happen when Andreu and the other anonymous person report their doping within USPS to the New York Times?

2 Ex-Teammates Of Cycling Star Admit Drug Use.

But, that is ok doc you can think what you want....and I will not jam your opinion by saying "no, not really". I do appreciate your expertise in washing opinions thru the reality machine, and unfortunately I have gotten caught here in your factual jaws of life. Do you have a link for your opinion on what would have happened in 2006 if he would have squealed then?

I agree he should have accepted his fate as opposed to what he did, if he didn't have the "integrity" at that time to blow the lid off lol.

A link to an opinion - hmm, did I ask you to link to your opinion? No.

Its an opinion - you're entitled to it, and I am entitled to question it and expose its weakness.

I you wish, I can link the Vrijman report which was a whitewash to cover-up Armstrongs EPO positives and I can link a lot of the differences in the 'donation' (opps, donations) timeline to show that he was protected by the UCI.

But I don't think you really want to play that game - troll someone else.

 

[ChrisE]

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[Dr. Maserati]

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