Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012)

[DirtyWorks]

I did search the forum to post the topic but couldnt find it. Thats the problem with the forum threads - it takes forever to find the relevant thread. If you can tell me of a quick way go ahead....you try searching 'lance and cancer' in the clinic...hundreds come up.

Lance's manditory doping program under USAC as a Junior.
http://www.cbsnews.com/2100-500164_162-284958.html
http://velonews.competitor.com/2006/04/news/six-years-later-strock-case-comes-to-court_9763 The "other team coach" is Chris Carmichael.

I've never actually dug around for the "other illness like Lance's" story. Be strict about it and disregard it if you will. it doesn't change the fact Carmichael and Wenzel were running a doping program.

 

[KayLow]

Agree. What you say is entirely correct.

But I think the question is whether there can be a correlation between doping (e.g., steroids) and cancer. For no single episode of cancer is it ever possible to say "this or that" is definitively the cause. But we can have higher or lower rates of correlations linking behaviors, exposures, etc. to morbidity (or simply one cell basically going crazy).

The problem is that it is difficult to do high quality research on this topic right now. Male hormone replacement therapy is relatively new, and there are no high quality studies that attempt to ascertain whether hormone treatment increases incidence or malignancy of cancer. The much higher levels of various anabolic agents and growth hormones that athletes use cannot be readily studied, because it would unethical and illegal to administer these doses in the context of a long-term study. Even epidemiological studies are difficult to do, because the population of hormone abusers is not exactly out in the open, as Armstrong well demonstrates.

People here seem certain that HGH and other steroids generally affect the growth of cancer cells. This is not correct. Each cancer cell is different, and cancer cells are not universally or even mostly sensitive to anabolic hormones or HGH. We currently have anti-androgens and anti-GH drugs. If it were the case that most cancer cells were sensitive to doping agents, these would be highly effective treatments against a broad range of cancers. As it is, they are only effective for very specific cancers, and testicular cancer is not generally one of them.

This is not to say that Lance's doping did not affect his cancer. Given the current state of our knowledge, it simply is not possible to handicap the odds.

 

[hrotha]

It is part of the allegations against UCI. If Lance had been tested properly his cancer would have been found sooner and at an earlier stage.

Another cyclist's cancer was caught by the same tests round about that time.

Apologies. I don't have the references handy.

But was that due to a cover-up, or due to LA's use of masking agents of any kind? I don't think the UCI would cover it up without even informing the athlete that he owed them one.

 

[LauraLyn]

The problem is that it is difficult to do high quality research on this topic right now. Male hormone replacement therapy is relatively new, and there are no high quality studies that attempt to ascertain whether hormone treatment increases incidence or malignancy of cancer. The much higher levels of various anabolic agents and growth hormones that athletes use cannot be readily studied, because it would unethical and illegal to administer these doses in the context of a long-term study. Even epidemiological studies are difficult to do, because the population of hormone abusers is not exactly out in the open, as Armstrong well demonstrates.

People here seem certain that HGH and other steroids generally affect the growth of cancer cells. This is not correct. Each cancer cell is different, and cancer cells are not universally or even mostly sensitive to anabolic hormones or HGH. We currently have anti-androgens and anti-GH drugs. If it were the case that most cancer cells were sensitive to doping agents, these would be highly effective treatments against a broad range of cancers. As it is, they are only effective for very specific cancers, and testicular cancer is not generally one of them.

This is not to say that Lance's doping did not affect his cancer. Given the current state of our knowledge, it simply is not possible to handicap the odds.

Yes. I said that above prior to your first posting here, but yes without going into the etiology and morphology. You say it better.

I would simply change "would" to "might".

And I agree. It is a difficult population to study. Still it should be studied (and would be) if the research was supported.

 

[KayLow]

I've heard it alluded to that the UCI, along with ignoring indicators that he was doping also ignored indicators that he had cancer. So what exactly would the tests have picked up that would indicate that an athlete had cancer? Thanks.

David Walsh has argued, with persuasive accounts from those involved in testing around the time of Lance's cancer, that the doping controls included tests of athlete's hCG levels. Male athletes typically use hCG as part of a anabolic steroid cycle to kickstart the production of endogenous testosterone. Testicular cancer cells frequently produce high levels of hCG that are not normally found in the male body. Thus, when a male athlete has high levels of hCG, there are essentially two possibilities: (1) the athlete has testicular cancer; or (2) the athlete has taken exogenous hCG as part of a steroid cycle. I guess you could also include the third possibility of both (1) and (2).

Lance wrote in his books that he had very high hCG levels that were produced by his cancer. We also know that Lance was subjected to doping control tests as little as 6 to 10 weeks before his cancer diagnosis. Lance's high hCG levels never resulted in a positive doping control test. Assuming Walsh is right -- and no one has contradicted him on this point -- the only explanation for why Lance's cancer was not detected earlier through the doping control tests is incompetence or corruption of the testers. They were looking for high hCG levels and Lance had high hCG levels.

 

[KayLow]

But was that due to a cover-up, or due to LA's use of masking agents of any kind? I don't think the UCI would cover it up without even informing the athlete that he owed them one.

I don't think a masking agent could explain it. The cancer would have been continuously producing extraordinarily high levels of hCG. These high levels were detected as part of the cancer screening around the same time as doping tests. The testers were either corrupt or incompetent. There is no other explanation.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Agree. What you say is entirely correct.

But I think the question is whether there can be a correlation between doping (e.g., steroids) and cancer. For no single episode of cancer is it ever possible to say "this or that" is definitively the cause. But we can have higher or lower rates of correlations linking behaviors, exposures, etc. to morbidity (or simply one cell basically going crazy).

Corellation is not causation though... The leap to causation is huge for a good reason and that's before you get into a courtroom.

IMHO, the old saying, "If you play with fire, then you are going to get burned." applies. Lance probably got got burned. It would mean nothing if that's wrong.

 

[DirtyWorks]

...The testers were either corrupt or incompetent. There is no other explanation.

I agree, but there's a point of clarification with the above. It's important to distinguish between the lab and the customer. Within the context of this thread, the lab just performs the tests and passes the results onto the customer. End of story.

The lab doing the testing is not directly at fault because what you are asking is very typically not their job. In most cases they have their hands full getting consistent results.

The people using the lab results presumably inside the UCI is where the blame game starts.

 

[131313]

The dedication Lance had to cycling and his training program I find it hard to believe he would have even bothered with drugs.

My feelings are he would have just said I don't need that stuff to beat the competition.

Ed

Before this thread get closed, I'm gonna help you out here. It's time to move past "did he or didn't he" and "everyone else was doing it, so it was a level playing field". Of course, he was doping, and it's becoming increasingly clear just how tilted the playing field really was in his favor. The last respite for the Lance fan is that it was a corrupt system, and he was the best at gaming the system, and hence, a true champion.

Stick with that one.

 

[hrotha]

I don't think a masking agent could explain it. The cancer would have been continuously producing extraordinarily high levels of hCG. These high levels were detected as part of the cancer screening around the same time as doping tests. The testers were either corrupt or incompetent. There is no other explanation.

I was thinking of some of those "powders" that basically destroy the samples. Isn't that a possibility?

IIRC, some US Postal samples had no EPO in them - either exogen or natural.

 

[Benotti69]

When did you join?

and you have not read in here during that time all the information on doping?

 

[Fatclimber]

David Walsh has argued, with persuasive accounts from those involved in testing around the time of Lance's cancer, that the doping controls included tests of athlete's hCG levels. Male athletes typically use hCG as part of a anabolic steroid cycle to kickstart the production of endogenous testosterone. Testicular cancer cells frequently produce high levels of hCG that are not normally found in the male body. Thus, when a male athlete has high levels of hCG, there are essentially two possibilities: (1) the athlete has testicular cancer; or (2) the athlete has taken exogenous hCG as part of a steroid cycle. I guess you could also include the third possibility of both (1) and (2).

Lance wrote in his books that he had very high hCG levels that were produced by his cancer. We also know that Lance was subjected to doping control tests as little as 6 to 10 weeks before his cancer diagnosis. Lance's high hCG levels never resulted in a positive doping control test. Assuming Walsh is right -- and no one has contradicted him on this point -- the only explanation for why Lance's cancer was not detected earlier through the doping control tests is incompetence or corruption of the testers. They were looking for high hCG levels and Lance had high hCG levels.

Thanks for the clarification.

 

[tofino]

Strock and other riders

If you search on Strock you on velonews you get some old stories. Wenzel, USA cycling sued etc. Strock is now a doctor.

here's one link;

http://velonews.competitor.com/2000/12/news/strock-speaks_79

The other rider was Erich Kaiter. They settled out of court.

Two other riders were Gerrik Latta and David Francis (now a lawyer).

You know what I hate about cycling this type of BS.
In 2010 Wenzel reappears as usually (post Saturn/Subway) but with HTC, come on. From velonews article. http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/03/news/htc-columbia-kicks-off-season-in-san-dimas_108428

Rene Wenzel, director

Former racer and longtime coach Rene Wenzel came on board with HTC women’s squad this year. Wenzel has coached hundreds of athletes over the years, with management experience at the U.S. national team, the powerhouse American pro team Saturn, and other squads. He and his then-wife Kendra started the coaching company that is now Wenzel Coaching in 1994.

 

[Benotti69]

If you search on Strock you on velonews you get some old stories. Wenzel, USA cycling sued etc. Strock is now a doctor.

here's one link;

http://velonews.competitor.com/2000/12/news/strock-speaks_79

The other rider was Erich Kaiter. They settled out of court.

Two other riders were Gerrik Latta and David Francis (now a lawyer).

You know what I hate about cycling this type of BS.
In 2010 Wenzel reappears as usually (post Saturn/Subway) but with HTC, come on. From velonews article. http://velonews.competitor.com/2010/03/news/htc-columbia-kicks-off-season-in-san-dimas_108428

Rene Wenzel, director

Former racer and longtime coach Rene Wenzel came on board with HTC women’s squad this year. Wenzel has coached hundreds of athletes over the years, with management experience at the U.S. national team, the powerhouse American pro team Saturn, and other squads. He and his then-wife Kendra started the coaching company that is now Wenzel Coaching in 1994.

HTC were never clean.

 

[Merckx index]

I was thinking of some of those "powders" that basically destroy the samples. Isn't that a possibility?

IIRC, some US Postal samples had no EPO in them - either exogen or natural.

This is possible, but the problem is that I don't think proteases were used at that time. They are mainly used to destroy EPO, but since there was no EPO test in the early to mid 90s, there would have been no need to mask it. But maybe someone here knows differently. If they were used then, it would be a more reasonable explanation than corruption--since LA was not a protected rider then--or incompetence, I would think. It would also put LA in position of, if not having caused his cancer directly through doping, making it much worse by preventing it from being diagnosed earlier. But another problem with the protease theory is that levels of his hCG were so high that I doubt a protease would have reduced them to levels not detected by the doping test. Also, note that failure to detect natural EPO in the urine is not necessarily a sign of masking, natural levels of it are sometimes very low.

Good discussion, KayLow. I would just add that another way substances can aggravate cancers is through angiogenesis, stimulating growth of new blood vessels to the tumor. From this it follows that an oxygen vector like EPO might also promote cancer growth, and in fact recent evidence suggests that it can, as well as having direct growth-promoting effects on some cancers. This was not known at the time LA developed cancer, and in fact I think EPO was part of his treatment. But something to keep in mind when considering the “safe as orange juice” line. Substances that are perfectly safe to take acutely in reasonable doses may have adverse effects if taken chronically. A good general rule is never take a drug that you don’t really need.

 

[Race Radio]

Strock, Kaiter, Lachuga, and Armstrong all had health issues that are strongly linked to immunosuppressants like Cortisone. Of course it is just a coincidence that they all rode on Chris Comical's Jr. team when he was handing out "Extract of Cortisone"


http://articles.latimes.com/2011/feb/16/health/la-he-growth-hormone-aging-20110217

less growth hormone — not more — may help prevent cancer and diabetes in old age.

EPO involved in origin and spread of cancer

http://ki.se/ki/jsp/polopoly.jsp?l=en&d=130&a=133831&newsdep=130

IGF- 1 increase cancer risk
http://www.news.harvard.edu/gazette/1999/04.22/igf1.story.html

 

[tofino]

Another choice quote

“Mr. Wenzel admits that Mr. Carmichael had a briefcase from which he produced a vitamin injection,” but added that the injection was made at Strock’s request.

Source;
http://velonews.competitor.com/2001/04/news/wenzel-denies-charges_386

 

[KayLow]

Good discussion, KayLow. I would just add that another way substances can aggravate cancers is through angiogenesis, stimulating growth of new blood vessels to the tumor. From this it follows that an oxygen vector like EPO might also promote cancer growth, and in fact recent evidence suggests that it can, as well as having direct growth-promoting effects on some cancers. This was not known at the time LA developed cancer, and in fact I think EPO was part of his treatment. But something to keep in mind when considering the “safe as orange juice” line. Substances that are perfectly safe to take acutely in reasonable doses may have adverse effects if taken chronically. A good general rule is never take a drug that you don’t really need.

That is a really good point about EPO use and tumor bloody supply. It certainly is a good reason to counsel against thinking that EPO is 100% safe. Doctors and medical researchers thought the same thing about menopausal hormone replacement therapy, and they were proven wrong after recommending its use to millions of women.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

A good general rule is never take a drug that you don’t really need.

But, Pharmstrong needed them drugs to win...

It is common knowledge human growth hormones, it is even in the name, can aggrevate cancer. It is knowledge EPO can cause cancer. So, to use both is gambling with your life.

I wouldn't go as far Pharmstrong did it to himself but he certainly didn't live like one trying to avoid getting cancer.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Lance doped like Iraq had weapons of mass destruction.

I would never trust anyone who works for the federal government and shaves their head.

For 60 Minutes, I'll be back in a minute after I go puke and that goes for all the American news shows. They are right there with the fed's and the Wall Street guys too. Such honesty.

I can't believe my tax money is supporting this. In the end it proves nothing to me. Lance is still one of the greatest cyclist that ever lived.

Lance has been tested continuously for how many years and how many times and never tested positive.

You know why is because Lance didn't have to dope, but most everyone else did to be at his level. It's that simple.

No one could compete with Lance in mental and physical strength. No one would train and prepare like him either.

I find it inconceivable that some one could go that long and not be caught if they did dope.

Lance was the Greatest ......................

When did you join?

and you have not read in here during that time all the information on doping?

Well, considering this gem from last year is his only other posting, I'd say he is either trolling or blissfully ignorant, or both.
Or Lance's mom.

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

Well, considering this gem from last year is his only other posting, I'd say he is either trolling or blissfully ignorant, or both.
Or Lance's mom.

Classic stuff. He's almost as funny as the guy on another forum who put forth the idea that Lance really wasn't doping, but that he purposely made his teammates think that he was so that they would dope and thus be strong enough to provide him with the on-course support that he needed to win 7 TdF.

Yeah, sounds reasonable.

 

[Square-pedaller]

Or Lance's mom.

I have very little to base this on, but what little I have read I get the impression that Lane's mom is nobody's fool. Least of all Lance's.

 

[Arnout]

So, tell me, how much is five percent of 6 hours?

 

[D-Queued]

Aside from being an obvious troll in the OP, this does not deserve its own thread when we have SO MANY others.

Please close.

Dave.

 

[FitSsikS]

Lance was the Greatest ......................

....Lying Cheat of all Time.