Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012)

[Anonymous]

For whatever it is worth, I'll toss this in here where it will sink into the abyss of crap, never to be seen again.

Open letter to the peloton.

http://www.podiumcafe.com/2012/9/4/...millar-j-vaughters-and-anyone-else-in-the-pro

Good piece. By the time I get up tomorrow it will be covered up by 20 pages of crap.

When you have something good to post can you just pm me and tell me where it is? Thanks.

 

[palmerq]

ok the last lance thread was very big so we shall have a new general one for this year, there is no need for so many new threads, currently there are 4 on the go(evidence, evidence links, the usada , this one and that is not counting the livestrong threads).. so lets keep the general lance talk in here, if it is worthy then try starting a new thread but please only do so if it is real required.

 

[the big ring]

Back to the #unconstitutional BS again I see.

And the LA PR bingo of "never failed a test".

So much for quitting. Liar, liar, pants on fire.

 

[LauraLyn]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/story/2012-09-04/Lance-Armstrong-doping-USADA/57593548/1

Great editorializing by USAToday:

". . . but Armstrong is the only athlete to face doping charges by USADA despite the lack of a confirmed positive drug test. Armstrong recently declined to go to arbitration to fight USADA's charges, saying he thought the agency's process was unconstitutional."

[I don't recall "unconstitutional" being in Armstrong's quitting message.]

 

[Velodude]

It could be hearsay. Betsey did not witness Lance doping, but rather she witnessed Lance telling his doctors that he doped. If the statement is offered to prove that Lance did, in fact, dope, it would be hearsay unless one of the exceptions to hearsay applied. Under the Federal Rules of Evidence, a statement by a party is an exception to the hearsay rule. Thus, as long as Lance is a party in the case, Betsey's testimony that she heard Lance tell his doctors that he doped would not be inadmissible hearsay evidence.

Would be irrelevant anyway as the LA hospital room admission occurred in 1996 concerning his earlier doping practices.

USADA charges against Armstrong and co-conspirators involved in the "USPS Conspiracy" do not pre-date 1998.

 

[LauraLyn]

Here is the press release by California Senator Michael J. Rubio:

http://sd16.senate.ca.gov/newsroom/...legislators-urge-us-anti-doping-agency-review

And here is the letter from the 23 California State Senators to their two US Congress Senators:

http://sd16.senate.ca.gov/sites/sd16.senate.ca.gov/files/USADA Letter to Boxer-Feinstein.pdf

Have fun, guys.

 

[LauraLyn]

Would be irrelevant anyway as the LA hospital room admission occurred in 1996 concerning his earlier doping practices.

USADA charges against Armstrong and co-conspirators involved in the "USPS Conspiracy" do not pre-date 1998.

True and true.

But maybe not "irrelevant". Betsey's and Andreu's testimony and Lance's denial was in 2006.

 

[the big ring]

http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycling/story/2012-09-04/Lance-Armstrong-doping-USADA/57593548/1

Is it purely coincidental that both senators addressed in the letter are women?

 

[Velodude]

Here is the press release by California Senator Michael J. Rubio:

http://sd16.senate.ca.gov/newsroom/...legislators-urge-us-anti-doping-agency-review

And here is the letter from the 23 California State Senators to their two US Congress Senators:

http://sd16.senate.ca.gov/sites/sd16.senate.ca.gov/files/USADA Letter to Boxer-Feinstein.pdf

Have fun, guys.

Nothing to do with the $1.5m donation by Livestrong (not Armstrong) to California Proposition 29 concerning tobacco tax in February this year?

 

[the big ring]

Those US senator women are 79 and 72 years old. Old enough to be Lance Armstrong's mum.

 

[Velodude]

True and true.

But maybe not "irrelevant". Betsey's and Andreu's testimony and Lance's denial was in 2006.

And the 2006 denial related to a conversation in 1996 relating to earlier drug practices. Nothing to do with 1998-2006.

 

[LauraLyn]

http://sd16.senate.ca.gov/newsroom/...legislators-urge-us-anti-doping-agency-review

http://sd16.senate.ca.gov/sites/sd16.senate.ca.gov/files/USADA Letter to Boxer-Feinstein.pdf

Related to the above, before we get into all the details of it: What state is Weisel from?

My guess is that USADA will release in the next few hours a statement that they would welcome and investigation into their finances and procedures. This is how they responded to Senator Sensenbrenner's letter in July and things went quiet after that.

Wouldn't it be great if Senator McCain took this opportunity to call for an open congressional hearing into the procedures and evidence used by USADA in its case against Lance & Co.

Maxitor: regarding our earlier discussion on Lance's stature, this pleads for your position more than mine. I'd sure hate to lose this argument (not to you, but to Lance).

This is certainly going to give McQuaid and UCI some fodder to chew on.

I still think Lance has been thrown under the bus, but there's still the blindside.

 

[LauraLyn]

And the 2006 denial related to a conversation in 1996 relating to earlier drug practices. Nothing to do with 1998-2006.

Perjury happened in 2006. I think you are right that it does not bear on the charges of doping practices between 1998 and 2012, but it does have a bearing on the "cover up" included in the USADA's charges regarding that period.

 

[the big ring]

SSDD: Same schtick, different drongos.

Shouldn't double jeopardy come into play here?

Congressman James Sensenbrenner questions the whole USADA process: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycl...ceives-backing-from-US-Congressman/56181906/1

Then US senator McCain effectively smacked him down: http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public...ecord_id=81e65d04-d3a5-57a6-a985-0c2ebfaa3cb0

Now we have state senators doing the same thing? Srsly? This can work?

 

[LauraLyn]

SSDD: Same schtick, different drongos.

Shouldn't double jeopardy come into play here?

Congressman James Sensenbrenner questions the whole USADA process: http://www.usatoday.com/sports/cycl...ceives-backing-from-US-Congressman/56181906/1

Then US senator McCain smacked it down: http://www.mccain.senate.gov/public...ecord_id=81e65d04-d3a5-57a6-a985-0c2ebfaa3cb0

Now we have state senators doing the same thing? Srsly? This can work?

Yeah, but Sensenbrenner turned out to be not much more than a fly in the ointment. Even McCain will have more trouble with this one.

But I'm not entirely sure this is so bad for what we want here or for the USADA. As the Open Letter to DM and JV in Podium Cafe suggests, this isn't going to keep the newspapers busy for much longer the way it is. Getting the Congress involved and getting a big scandal going might not be so bad for what we want. If the USADA has a good case (which seems like even the Californian Senators don't understand "unilaterally changed the rules") and it has a supporter like McCain, it could be great. Especially if they asked to see the evidence against Lance.

The letter is weak. And although it is camouflaged around California's interest in their Olympic athletes ("nearly 1/4 for the nation" - why didn't we allow California to be a separate state a long time ago? ), the press release and statement are clearly written in Lance's DC PR basement: "due process", "unconstitutional", "seeing the evidence."

Also, if Congress would take this seriously, it could mean a review of the arbitration process, and it would be difficult to do this for sports alone.

I think the letter is also a rather clear indication that more is at stake here than just a doping athlete. There are others with things to hide.

 

[Pulpstar]

Watched the first half of bigger, faster, stronger last night (A Documentary about the USA's relationship with PEDs, focusses mainly on anabolic steroids).

Then I thought about Lance. Some people have accused him of being 'unamerican'.

The truth is he is as American as baseball and apple pie.

 

[Bicycle]

Wouldn't it be great if Senator McCain took this opportunity to call for an open congressional hearing into the procedures and evidence used by USADA in its case against Lance & Co.

Why would this be necessary? The Federal Court has already ruled on this.

 

[LauraLyn]

Why would this be necessary? The Federal Court has already ruled on this.

I agree. It is not necessary and it is even a bit ridiculous (from my perspective) that this is now being turned away from the American courts and the American judiciary process (including arbitration), and being put into the political arena.

But that is what Lance and his friends have chosen for. So if they insist on a battle on the floors of the US Congress, well . . . .

By the way, your point is well taken. USADA gets about 10 million dollars per year in US government funding. That is laughable. You can get a government grant for that amount to study the population of pythons in the Florida Everglades. LiveStrong got 4 times that amount (over a few years) so Lance could ride his bike around Europe (as others have described it). So, yes, if people want to complain about this case wasting tax payers dollars, I think we should now start in California - which doesn't have such a bad reputation for wasting tax payers dollars, even at home.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Source please. Pubmed etc...

http://www.fda.gov/NewsEvents/Newsroom/PressAnnouncements/2007/ucm108864.htm

Recently completed studies describe an increased risk of death, blood clots, strokes, and heart attacks in patients with chronic kidney failure when ESAs were given at higher than recommended doses. In other studies, more rapid tumor growth occurred in patients with head and neck cancer who received these higher doses.

In studies where ESAs were given at recommended doses, an increased risk of death was reported in patients with cancer who were not receiving chemotherapy and an increased risk of blood clots was observed in patients following orthopedic surgery.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/busin...at-what-cost/2012/07/19/gJQAX5yqwW_story.html

I had another link but I can't find it, will be looking for it.

 

[LauraLyn]

From the letter:

Do these idiots know that he had the chance to go to arbitration if he wanted to but he refused in the end? They make it out as if Wonderboy did'nt have a choice in the matter.

The release of this evidence publicly can't come quickly enough.

It seems the Californian State Senators are less interested in "due process" than their letter suggests.

Releasing the evidence publicly is, in fact, not an easy thing for the USADA. There best chance for doing this would be through one of the three remaining arbitration processes (or one process) in the case, if indeed any of the three actually do show up.

This letter may actually help the USADA to put its evidence out in public. Let's hope so. Currently we have lots of discussions about evidence, but no evidence actually released by USADA.

 

[poupou]

The most damaging accusation of Lance-USADA case is about drugs trafficking, encouraging and enabling doping and corruption. Lance being a doper is not the most important charge.
So those congressmen look foolish, they have gotten bad advices or they are corrupt too.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

The most damaging accusation of Lance-USADA case is about drugs trafficking, encouraging and enabling doping and corruption. Lance being a doper is not the most important charge.
So those congressmen look foolish, they have gotten bad advices or they are corrupt too.

Whatever their motive they are just embarrassing themselves.

 

[thehog]

Whatever their motive they are just embarrassing themselves.

As th Hamilton book comes out today and serialised in the Times they'll very stupid.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...ng-Tyler-Hamilton-book.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

'Lance practically glowed when he told me about the plan — he loved this kind of MacGyver secret agent stuff. The French could search us all day long and they’d find zero. And besides, we felt sure that most of the other teams would be doing their own version of Motoman. Why wouldn’t they?

 

[Cycle Chic]

This Lance Thread is more unreadable than before....bloody topics all over the place...CN cocked up.

 

[LauraLyn]

The most damaging accusation of Lance-USADA case is about drugs trafficking, encouraging and enabling doping and corruption. Lance being a doper is not the most important charge.
So those congressmen [and ladies] look foolish, they have gotten bad advices or they are corrupt too.

Was that meant as a compliment?