Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012)

[MarkvW]

I said it was obvious that you have had nothing to do with the sport.....
Nice try - I am not venting against that, but your portrayal that 'devoted fans' (you still haven't said who they are) of the sport would follow regardless that it is a cesspool. If you were involved with the sport (at any level) you would know that is untrue.

I am just a fan. I'd never race because the downhills scare me too much. I respect the riders' ability to throw themselves down the mountain with complete faith in their machine and their skill.

I'm not going to specifically identify "devoted fans." That's an invitation into the Maserati Vortex that I choose not to accept.

I think you are arguing that pro cycling is not a filthy cesspool. I believe that as much as I believe that Lance Armstrong, Jacques Anquetil, Eddy Mercks, Bjarne Riis, and Jan Ullrich rode on bread and water.

 

[Benotti69]

Is Jenkins an investigative journalist or a columnist? As a columnist, she would be paid to write her opinions, and by doing so to draw extra readers to the paper. Seems like she is doing her job very well indeed. If she is a investigative journalist, I'd say not so well as her analysis is shallow and incomplete.

But I continue to be amazed at the collective condemning of those who hold a differing opinion on internet forums.

LiveWrong workers gotta do something, trolling helps pay the bills.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

LiveWrong workers gotta do something, trolling helps pay the bills.

Jenkins wrote that article sitting in a bathtub, with a bottle of chardonnay, a vanilla candle, and Enya playing in the earbuds. Sobbing the whole time.

The equivalent of drunk dialing an ex lover.....

 

[MarkvW]

Jenkins wrote that article sitting in a bathtub, with a bottle of chardonnay, a vanilla candle, and Enya playing in the earbuds. Sobbing the whole time.

The equivalent of drunk dialing an ex lover.....

. . . and staring at her puny royalty check.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I am just a fan. I'd never race because the downhills scare me too much. I respect the riders' ability to throw themselves down the mountain with complete faith in their machine and their skill.

I'm not going to specifically identify "devoted fans." That's an invitation into the Maserati Vortex that I choose not to accept.

You are a fan of what though?
And what are these devoted fans actually fans of?

And you were quick to throw out that I was namecalling and then attempt to get out by name calling? The vortex is always you spinning one way then another - if you had a reasonable point you would be able to clearly make it.

I think you are arguing that pro cycling is not a filthy cesspool. I believe that as much as I believe that Lance Armstrong, Jacques Anquetil, Eddy Mercks, Bjarne Riis, and Jan Ullrich rode on bread and water.

I never made that argument.
Quite frankly, I have forgotten more about what has happened in this sport than you will ever know.

If it was a cesspool and the devoted fan stuck by it, as you suggested - then why would there even be any discussion (yet alone serious pressure) to change the status quo?

 

[MarkvW]

You are a fan of what though?
And what are these devoted fans actually fans of?

And you were quick to throw out that I was namecalling and then attempt to get out by name calling? The vortex is always you spinning one way then another - if you had a reasonable point you would be able to clearly make it.


I never made that argument.
Quite frankly, I have forgotten more about what has happened in this sport than you will ever know.

If it was a cesspool and the devoted fan stuck by it, as you suggested - then why would there even be any discussion (yet alone serious pressure) to change the status quo?

Oh, I get it. You are trying to paint me as a devoted fan.

I'm not. I enjoy cycling at about the same level as I like watching TV shows. It's also extremely good to have on while I'm on the Computrainer. I knowingly refuse to support professional cycling in any financial way. (I bought the Computrainer before my eyes were opened about the sport).

My point is pretty straightforward: Cycling is a filthy cesspool. There is only one way out of that cesspool: The money flowing into the cesspool needs to stop. That is the ONLY way that the sport could ever change into the aspirational dream for the sport that you and I probably share.

There's so much talk about Bad Lance and Bad Sally, etc., that it obscures the reality that the sport itself spawns these people. If it wasn't Lance, it would be somebody else. If Sally didn't write Lance's books and apologize for him, somebody else would.

I freely admit that you have a fantastic level of knowledge about the filthy cesspool of pro cycling and that your level of knowledge of the sport is infinitely greater than mine. But it doesn't take an encyclopedic knowledge of cycling to know that sport is sinfully filthy.

I don't see any possibility of change. Too many people (like Sally, for example) are financially or emotionally invested in the sport as it is right now--a filthy cesspool. So I just enjoy it for what it it is--a circus and a soap opera.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Oh, I get it. You are trying to paint me as a devoted fan.

No, I was genuinely asking you to be specific on what a 'devoted fan' was.

And I would not have said you were a devoted fan - thats why I knew you had not much first hand experience in the sport. Again, that is not a putdown to stop you commenting - just an accurate observation.

I'm not. I enjoy cycling at about the same level as I like watching TV shows. It's also extremely good to have on while I'm on the Computrainer. I knowingly refuse to support professional cycling in any financial way. (I bought the Computrainer before my eyes were opened about the sport).

Nothing wrong with that at all - indeed I read somewhere that years ago many sponsors of TdF teams were aimed at ladies who were doing domestic chores with the TV on in the backround because they liked the shots of the scenery.
And that is why there will always be viewers and always be sponsors and money, which goes to your argument below.

My point is pretty straightforward: Cycling is a filthy cesspool. There is only one way out of that cesspool: The money flowing into the cesspool needs to stop. That is the ONLY way that the sport could ever change into the aspirational dream for the sport that you and I probably share.

There's so much talk about Bad Lance and Bad Sally, etc., that it obscures the reality that the sport itself spawns these people. If it wasn't Lance, it would be somebody else. If Sally didn't write Lance's books and apologize for him, somebody else would.

I freely admit that you have a fantastic level of knowledge about the filthy cesspool of pro cycling and that your level of knowledge of the sport is infinitely greater than mine. But it doesn't take an encyclopedic knowledge of cycling to know that sport is sinfully filthy.

I don't see any possibility of change. Too many people (like Sally, for example) are financially or emotionally invested in the sport as it is right now--a filthy cesspool. So I just enjoy it for what it it is--a circus and a soap opera.

Lets be clear - Sally is not invested in any way with the sport.
That is why i asked what you meant by devoted fan and saying they are the same as her.

She is a journalist - she will write your book for money. Pretty simple.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Good gracious, you love to keep the trolls well fed.

Good gracious, you love to comment on me feeding the trolls.

 

[MarkvW]

No, I was genuinely asking you to be specific on what a 'devoted fan' was.

And I would not have said you were a devoted fan - thats why I knew you had not much first hand experience in the sport. Again, that is not a putdown to stop you commenting - just an accurate observation.



Nothing wrong with that at all - indeed I read somewhere that years ago many sponsors of TdF teams were aimed at ladies who were doing domestic chores with the TV on in the backround because they liked the shots of the scenery.
And that is why there will always be viewers and always be sponsors and money, which goes to your argument below.


Lets be clear - Sally is not invested in any way with the sport.
That is why i asked what you meant by devoted fan and saying they are the same as her.

She is a journalist - she will write your book for money. Pretty simple.

Sally is deeply invested in the sport. (a) She made boatloads of money from a book about the sport; (b) she reports on the sport in exchange for money; and (c) she is emotionally connected to a disgraced former star of the sport. I don't know how you can reasonably assert that "Sally is not invested in any way with the sport."

I am not suggesting that Sally is "the same" as the devoted fans of cycling. I suggest that Sally's loyal support of filthy Lance Armstrong is analogous to a devoted fan's loyal support of filthy pro cycling. I'd define "devoted fan" as a person who spends their hard earned money on pro cycling-sponsored items.

Sally is an active apologist of the filthy sport (she attempts to influence others), while the devoted pro cycling fan is more passive. So, she's "worse," I guess, in an objective moral sense. But both active Sally and the passive fan are still supporting the filthy circus. It's a little bit hypocritical for the devoted fan who buys his Rabobank jersey to throw stones at Sally Jenkins for her defense of Lance Armstrong.

It all makes for good entertainment, though.

 

[thehog]

Erased!

lance armstrong has been stripped of the bbc overseas sports personality award that the american cyclist won in 2003.

Armstrong won the award nine years ago following his seventh tour de france victory, but after his triumphs were wiped from the record books following an investigation into doping allegations the bbc dropped his name from the list of previous winners published in the programme for tonight's event.

The space next to 2003 was left blank. No explanation was offered in the programme as to why no name was listed but the bbc confirmed armstrong's award had been rescinded.

A bbc statement said: "following the uci's decision to strip lance armstrong of his tour de france titles, it has been decided by the bbc to withdraw his overseas sport personality of the year award - armstrong was voted the winner of this award in 2003 based on his sporting achievements at that time."

it is not clear whether armstrong has been asked to return the trophy, which as with the overseas award every year was decided by a panel of judges than by public vote.

Armstrong was stripped of all seven tour wins after the us anti-doping agency revealed systematic doping by the american and his us postal team, with the international cycling union supporting that action.

...

 

[del1962]

Erased!




...

Theres some bad maths in there but otherwise good.

 

[The Gnome]

"I am not suggesting that Sally is "the same" as the devoted fans of cycling. I suggest that Sally's loyal support of filthy Lance Armstrong is analogous to a devoted fan's loyal support of filthy pro cycling. I'd define "devoted fan" as a person who spends their hard earned money on pro cycling-sponsored items.

Sally is an active apologist of the filthy sport (she attempts to influence others), while the devoted pro cycling fan is more passive. So, she's "worse," I guess, in an objective moral sense. But both active Sally and the passive fan are still supporting the filthy circus. It's a little bit hypocritical for the devoted fan who buys his Rabobank jersey to throw stones at Sally Jenkins for her defense of Lance Armstrong."

so a person who follows cycling, maybe wants it to be cleaned up ect is "analogous" to Jenkins making quite abit of money being the voice of a liar? Interesting analysis...so I bought a rabo jersey a few years ago and want to see them clean...morally, I am pretty much in the same league as Jenkins? Do you own a road bike? I guess you could say you are supporting the same stuff by even riding the dam* thing via your over the top logic......I don't know man...but you are coming off as really full of S**t...it is much more nuanced than that...

even writing about it at that point and giving attention to any of it via your argument is supporting it...guess as you "follow" cycling you support doping...total BS bud...

 

[The Gnome]

" I knowingly refuse to support professional cycling in any financial way. (I bought the Computrainer before my eyes were opened about the sport)."


This is so ridiculous it hardly bears comment...but at some point I hope you don't need to buy tires...you will be SOL...perhaps folks will give them to you used and your conscience will remain clean...

 

[MarkvW]

"I am not suggesting that Sally is "the same" as the devoted fans of cycling. I suggest that Sally's loyal support of filthy Lance Armstrong is analogous to a devoted fan's loyal support of filthy pro cycling. I'd define "devoted fan" as a person who spends their hard earned money on pro cycling-sponsored items.

Sally is an active apologist of the filthy sport (she attempts to influence others), while the devoted pro cycling fan is more passive. So, she's "worse," I guess, in an objective moral sense. But both active Sally and the passive fan are still supporting the filthy circus. It's a little bit hypocritical for the devoted fan who buys his Rabobank jersey to throw stones at Sally Jenkins for her defense of Lance Armstrong."

so a person who follows cycling, maybe wants it to be cleaned up ect is "analogous" to Jenkins making quite abit of money being the voice of a liar? Interesting analysis...so I bought a rabo jersey a few years ago and want to see them clean...morally, I am pretty much in the same league as Jenkins? Do you own a road bike? I guess you could say you are supporting the same stuff by even riding the dam* thing via your over the top logic......I don't know man...but you are coming off as really full of S**t...it is much more nuanced than that...

even writing about it at that point and giving attention to any of it via your argument is supporting it...guess as you "follow" cycling you support doping...total BS bud...

Thanks for the vulgar insults and the specious rationalizations. Pro cycling doesn't need nuance. Pro cycling needs a 2x4 upside the head. Only a seriously hemmorhaging money loss will EVER engender change among those corrupt good old boys.

There's a time and a place for nuance, and this ain't it when it comes to pro cycling. The sport needs lots of blunt force trauma.

 

[classicomano]

+1 for the Armstrong supporters. Ex-US Postal Mad Max van Heeswijk was in court today to testify about the Rasmussen case and spoke afterwards about the Armstrong case, struggling to hold back his tears he said: Lance was superman, I thought Lance used doping that nobody else could get their hands on but now that I know he used the same stuff as everybody else I have even more respect for him than before.

Also he never saw him dope and never used anything himself blablabla this is of course after admitting to EPO use a year before then panicked, snatched the tape from the reporter threw it in the bin and used his dog to scare the journalist out of his home.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

+1 for the Armstrong supporters. Ex-US Postal Mad Max van Heeswijk was in court today to testify about the Rasmussen case and spoke afterwards about the Armstrong case, struggling to hold back his tears he said: Lance was superman, I thought Lance used doping that nobody else could get their hands on but now that I know he used the same stuff as everybody else I have even more respect for him than before.

Also he never saw him dope and never used anything himself blablabla this is of course after admitting to EPO use a year before then panicked, snatched the tape from the reporter threw it in the bin and used his dog to scare the journalist out of his home.

Another perfect example of the need for the complete cleansing.....

 

[The Gnome]

"Lance was superman, I thought Lance used doping that nobody else could get their hands on but now that I know he used the same stuff as everybody else I have even more respect for him than before."

you have to wonder where they find these ninnies...Max is hitting new heights when it comes to being a dumb a**...

 

[will10]

"Lance was superman, I thought Lance used doping that nobody else could get their hands on but now that I know he used the same stuff as everybody else I have even more respect for him than before."

you have to wonder where they find these ninnies...Max is hitting new heights when it comes to being a dumb a**...

Hamilton hinted at something similar at certain points in his book... yeah they were "all in" but he mentions a few times that working with LA was a level above how he'd trained previously.

 

[MarkvW]

"Lance was superman, I thought Lance used doping that nobody else could get their hands on but now that I know he used the same stuff as everybody else I have even more respect for him than before."

you have to wonder where they find these ninnies...Max is hitting new heights when it comes to being a dumb a**...

"These ninnies" ARE the pro peloton. Get used to it.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sally is deeply invested in the sport. (a) She made boatloads of money from a book about the sport; (b) she reports on the sport in exchange for money; and (c) she is emotionally connected to a disgraced former star of the sport. I don't know how you can reasonably assert that "Sally is not invested in any way with the sport."

No, Sally knows nothing of the sport. She has no investment in it. The only reason I heard of her is she spun Lances tale. She has never ever written about 'the sport', she wouldn't know one end of a bike from the other, she probably thinks Flanders is a guy in The Simpsons.

I am not suggesting that Sally is "the same" as the devoted fans of cycling. I suggest that Sally's loyal support of filthy Lance Armstrong is analogous to a devoted fan's loyal support of filthy pro cycling. I'd define "devoted fan" as a person who spends their hard earned money on pro cycling-sponsored items.

That's a strange definition. Very strange.

Sally is an active apologist of the filthy sport (she attempts to influence others), while the devoted pro cycling fan is more passive. So, she's "worse," I guess, in an objective moral sense. But both active Sally and the passive fan are still supporting the filthy circus. It's a little bit hypocritical for the devoted fan who buys his Rabobank jersey to throw stones at Sally Jenkins for her defense of Lance Armstrong.

It all makes for good entertainment, though.

Supporting something and profiting from something are 2 very different points.
I don't wear trade jersey's but even if someone did does not mean they condone what a team does. Every bit of gear I have would have some loose connection to a doper.
The fact you find this 'entertaining' is rather odd. I find people like Jenkins quite appalling.

 

[summerhill]

David Walsh on CNN:
http://edition.cnn.com/video/?hpt=h...12/18/intv-cycling-doping-armstrong-walsh.cnn
apologies if you've seen it already.

 

[guncha]

Hamilton hinted at something similar at certain points in his book... yeah they were "all in" but he mentions a few times that working with LA was a level above how he'd trained previously.

Do you really think Jan got EPO at local supermarket and his team did not organize anything? Had Jan ridden "clean" he would have never finished in top20/top30.

 

[guncha]

Another perfect example of the need for the complete cleansing.....

Watch Sky at TDF 2012 and compare whether these guys are cleaner than USPS.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Do you really think Jan got EPO at local supermarket and his team did not organize anything? Had Jan ridden "clean" he would have never finished in top20/top30.

Unless everyone was clean, and then he would have won.

 

[purcell]

Sally is deeply invested in the sport. (a) She made boatloads of money from a book about the sport; (b) she reports on the sport in exchange for money; and (c) she is emotionally connected to a disgraced former star of the sport. I don't know how you can reasonably assert that "Sally is not invested in any way with the sport."

I am not suggesting that Sally is "the same" as the devoted fans of cycling. I suggest that Sally's loyal support of filthy Lance Armstrong is analogous to a devoted fan's loyal support of filthy pro cycling. I'd define "devoted fan" as a person who spends their hard earned money on pro cycling-sponsored items.

Sally is an active apologist of the filthy sport (she attempts to influence others), while the devoted pro cycling fan is more passive. So, she's "worse," I guess, in an objective moral sense. But both active Sally and the passive fan are still supporting the filthy circus. It's a little bit hypocritical for the devoted fan who buys his Rabobank jersey to throw stones at Sally Jenkins for her defense of Lance Armstrong.

It all makes for good entertainment, though.

By this definition I not a devoted fan of the sport because I do not buy pro sponsored items ( unless on counts Camapgnolo parts), and even though I have been a fan of ice hockey for 40 years I am not a "devoted" fan because I don't go the arena and buy a team jersey???

Really?