Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012)

[Neworld]

But seeing only Armstrong, Pantani and Ricco bleed for the UCI .

Hippie or not you are misguided my friend.

Only LA, Marco and Ricco bleed...are you on serious? Not only is the list far longer, but LA was complicit in sending info to the UCI to rat on other cyclists.

Yes LA needs to bleed and public embarrassment and complete removal of his very existence from cycling is the only plausible reality. Sorry if his fall and continued sad story are overwhelming. His sordid history was unbearable and pure evil.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Yes LA needs to bleed and public embarrassment and complete removal of his very existence from cycling is the only plausible reality. Sorry if his fall and continued sad story are overwhelming. His sordid history was unbearable and pure evil.

Back to the middleages? Guess I was right in my assesment on Armstrong being a product of society, ergo his 'haters' being just as bad as his 'lovers' that is.

Let's just say I am done with the pharmaceutical wonderboy, the system that made him is still in charge.

Only LA, Marco and Ricco bleed...are you on serious?

Armstrong, Pantani and Ricco are the scapegoats for a totally messed up sport. What is there not to undestand in that? And yet the UCI stays in charge with their 'dope within the bandwith' Blood Passport.

And, dont get me wrong, Armstrong is a bad mtf, dont like him, but I am done with mister wondercansuddenlyclimblikeaclimberandnotforgettimetrial Armstrong.
The guy is history.

PS: don't think I am misguited, I want all the enablers and all the dopers to be taken in to account.

 

[Neworld]

Back to the middleages? Guess I was right in my assesment on Armstrong being a product of society... ].

Lance is most likely the product of his lack of parental guidance/love, resultant anger and lack of moral touchstones. The rest is ALL Lance, so don't blame society. Too often in N. America 'we' tend to blame everyone else when looking in the mirror, doing what is right and taking responsibility for one's actions is all that is needed.

Lance is a nasty piece of work and his current predicament has nothing to do with 'the stone ages'. Frankly, so far he is lucky.

He'll end up in no man's land in 5-10.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Back to the middleages? Guess I was right in my assesment on Armstrong being a product of society, ergo his 'haters' being just as bad as his 'lovers' that is.

Let's just say I am done with the pharmaceutical wonderboy, the system that made him is still in charge.Armstrong, Pantani and Ricco are the scapegoats for a totally messed up sport. What is there not to undestand in that? And yet the UCI stays in charge with their 'dope within the bandwith' Blood Passport.

And, dont get me wrong, Armstrong is a bad mtf, dont like him, but I am done with mister wondercansuddenlyclimblikeaclimberandnotforgettimetrial Armstrong.
The guy is history.

PS: don't think I am misguited, I want all the enablers and all the dopers to be taken in to account.

Why not wish for world peace instead?

Aaaaaaanyway, Wonderboy has been lying, cheating, and aggressively persecuting for years. From my calendar, he has been reaping what he sowed for less than 6 months. Sorry, but your insistence on a really short timeline suggests you haven't really been paying attention.

But by all means, go away and never speak of it again. I don't think anyone will send out the blood hounds looking for you.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Why not wish for world peace instead?

Aaaaaaanyway, Wonderboy has been lying, cheating, and aggressively persecuting for years. From my calendar, he has been reaping what he sowed for less than 6 months. Sorry, but your insistence on a really short timeline suggests you haven't really been paying attention.

But by all means, go away and never speak of it again. I don't think anyone will send out the blood hounds looking for you.

Maybe u - and the others - are right and I am wrong. Was just philosofing on New Years Eve with a lot of lagers, not a good idea to be on an internetforum at the same time

But the fact remains, get the enablers.

 

[sniper]

... I've got enough of being angry at Armstrong. ...He was the 'enabled one'.

Let's just say I am done with the pharmaceutical wonderboy, the system that made him is still in charge. ...

PS: don't think I am misguited, I want all the enablers and all the dopers to be taken in to account.

But the fact remains, get the enablers.

I definitely feel the same about much of what you say. I'm also done with mocking Lance. He's getting what he deserved anyway; we don't need to look after that anymore. Meanwhile, the UCI remain seated, are getting away with murder and continuing the masquerade. UCI's enabling of Sky and Sky's subsequent heroification is just jaw dropping.
None of this is to say Lance isn't a criminal, *******, fraud, etc. He is, and he's deservedly being punished for it. But yes, he's also become a UCI scapegoat, thrown under the bus by the biggest frauds in the history of cycling: phat and hein.

So, same as you, I'm no longer getting much satisfaction from seeing Lance being butchered in the media and in court. Not as long as Hein and Phat walk free.

 

[ultimobici]

But the fact remains, get the enablers too

you missed an important word out.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Maybe u - and the others - are right and I am wrong. Was just philosofing on New Years Eve with a lot of lagers, not a good idea to be on an internetforum at the same time

But the fact remains, get the enablers.

Fair enough. And yes, get all the enablers...start with Bruyneel. I just wish someone like Lefevere would get busted too.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Fair enough. And yes, get all the enablers...start with Bruyneel. I just wish someone like Lefevere would get busted too.

Bruyneel is done, gone and will never be forgotten for maybe the best logistics in doping. Lefevre has been doping his riders with EPO since 1991 and still is in function with buddy buddy Yvan van Mol.

Now, for something completely different: why are'nt doctors' licences revoked when they are proven to have been doping sporters? Does the oath of Hippocrates - you dont have to be a linguistic wonder to refrain Hippocrates to hypocrite - mean nothing?

 

[thehog]

Bruyneel is done, gone and will never be forgotten for maybe the best logistics in doping. Lefevre has been doping his riders with EPO since 1991 and still is in function with buddy buddy Yvan van Mol.

Now, for something completely different: why are'nt doctors' licences revoked when they are proven to have been doping sporters? Does the oath of Hippocrates - you dont have to be a linguistic wonder to refrain Hippocrates to hypocrite - mean nothing?

The UCI had it chance with Ferrari. USADA bans him for life and all McQuaid can say "he's not a license holder".

Pat is scared or Ferrari. Or more to the point scared of what might happen if he took Ferrari out of circulation.

 

[ChrisE]

Now, for something completely different: why are'nt doctors' licences revoked when they are proven to have been doping sporters? Does the oath of Hippocrates - you dont have to be a linguistic wonder to refrain Hippocrates to hypocrite - mean nothing?

Because at that point you start dealing with a state issue, not a sporting one. That won't fly.

 

[ultimobici]

Because at that point you start dealing with a state issue, not a sporting one. That won't fly.

I can't help wondering how hard it would be for the UCI to require any personnel employed to be accredited. You can't just wander into the TdF village or caravan without it, how is the sport any different. That way a dodgy doc, ds or any other support person could then be excluded easily. Not rocket science.

 

[ChrisE]

I can't help wondering how hard it would be for the UCI to require any personnel employed to be accredited. You can't just wander into the TdF village or caravan without it, how is the sport any different. That way a dodgy doc, ds or any other support person could then be excluded easily. Not rocket science.

Of course I agree with this, but that is not what FGL was saying.

He is stating if a doctor gets busted for doping in sport, his license that enables him to practice in the general public be revoked. This opens up a whole can of worms....it's just more unrealistic clinic babble.

 

[sniper]

I can't help wondering how hard it would be for the UCI to require any personnel employed to be accredited. You can't just wander into the TdF village or caravan without it, how is the sport any different. That way a dodgy doc, ds or any other support person could then be excluded easily. Not rocket science.

Of course I agree with this, but that is not what FGL was saying.

He is stating if a doctor gets busted for doping in sport, his license that enables him to practice in the general public be revoked. This opens up a whole can of worms....it's just more unrealistic clinic babble.

UCI could work with certifications.
Certify the reliable docs and take certifications away if a doc is caught doping riders. This would be more of a symbolic act, and won't prevent the doc from practicing of course.

 

[ChrisE]

UCI could work with certifications.
Certify the reliable docs and take certifications away if a doc is caught doping riders. This would be more of a symbolic act, and won't prevent the doc from practicing of course.

Isn't this already happening? Last time I checked Ferrari for example has been banned, and riders are being suspended for using him after that fact.

 

[thehog]

UCI could work with certifications.
Certify the reliable docs and take certifications away if a doc is caught doping riders. This would be more of a symbolic act, and won't prevent the doc from practicing of course.

Correct. They introduce such a program for DS's last year.

 

[thehog]

Isn't this already happening? Last time I checked Ferrari for example has been banned, and riders are being suspended for using him after that fact.

In Italy only.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

Because at that point you start dealing with a state issue, not a sporting one. That won't fly.

That is what I am talking about, muchos gracias. Isn't administring doping mailpractice - or what is the correct spelling - to a degree a doctor will loose his licence? You do not drug patients just to make them ubermensch, or doesn't the oath of H. work that way?

In Italy only.

And in tennis.

 

[ChrisE]

That is what I am talking about, muchos gracias. Isn't administring doping mailpractice - or what is the correct spelling - to a degree a doctor will loose his licence? You do not drug patients just to make them ubermensch, or doesn't the oath of H. work that way?

You are extrapolating punishment from an -ada or whatever for breaking sporting rules to the ability of a doctor to work with a license obtained from another entity, under a whole different set of rules and potential ethical parameters. This is not workable and would be lawsuit heaven, and be a nightmare to even enforce over borders.

And, who says what they are doing is malpractice, in all cases? For example, is administering drugs to return physiological parameters to the 'normal' range malpractice? This ethical example has been an ongoing discussion in these forums for years. Being against the rules in a bike race does not necessarily equate to malpractice in real life.

 

[Benotti69]

I can't help wondering how hard it would be for the UCI to require any personnel employed to be accredited. You can't just wander into the TdF village or caravan without it, how is the sport any different. That way a dodgy doc, ds or any other support person could then be excluded easily. Not rocket science.

Mate of mine wandered into TdF village at 2012 tour Pyrennees stage without accreditation.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

You are extrapolating punishment from an -ada or whatever for breaking sporting rules to the ability of a doctor to work with a license obtained from another entity, under a whole different set of rules and potential ethical parameters. This is not workable and would be lawsuit heaven, and be a nightmare to even enforce over borders.

And, who says what they are doing is malpractice, in all cases? For example, is administering drugs to return physiological parameters to the 'normal' range malpractice? This ethical example has been an ongoing discussion in these forums for years. Being against the rules in a bike race does not necessarily equate to malpractice in real life.

Isn't administring doping the same as selling drugs? A criminal offence I belief? And, lets not forget the doping trade, isn't that the same as drug trade? The French think it is. They are quite hardcore in that way [even a gram of hashies is a criminal offence, a bit overdone in my book, but, okay].

I am not saying this is THE sollution to the doping problem but a lot can be done in regard with the team doctors, let alone the 'outside consultants'.

To your last remark regarding the natural levels: yes, I don't think that should be a problem, vitame ABC untill Z are fine by me. My dad used to drug me before every soccer match with an 'overdose' of Vitamine C. I rocked!
Everything else is doping, the cyclist is not sick, he is just fatigued, who wouldnt be? Take him of his bike when he is in no position to continue racing, he is knocked out. What does a doctor in the boxing ring do when his 'patient' is not able to continue? Throw the towel, that is what cycling docs should do in my [call it naive] book.

 

[sniper]

Isn't administring doping the same as selling drugs? A criminal offence I belief? And, lets not forget the doping trade, isn't that the same as drug trade? The French think it is. They are quite hardcore in that way [even a gram of hashies is a criminal offence, a bit overdone in my book, but, okay].

I am not saying this is THE sollution to the doping problem but a lot can be done in regard with the team doctors, let alone the 'outside consultants'.

To your last remark regarding the natural levels: yes, I don't think that should be a problem, vitame ABC untill Z are fine by me. My dad used to drug me before every soccer match with an 'overdose' of Vitamine C. I rocked!
Everything else is doping, the cyclist is not sick, he is just fatigued, who wouldnt be? Take him of his bike when he is in no position to continue racing, he is knocked out. What does a doctor in the boxing ring do when his 'patient' is not able to continue? Throw the towel, that is what cycling docs should do in my [call it naive] book.

i think much of this is sorted out differently from country to country. It gets really messy here. Prescriptions, doping vs. drugs, quantities, etc.

wouldn't be bad to have a thread sorting out which anti-doping laws hold in which country, and have a special look at the regulations in those countries where teams are based. I know Spain's antidoping laws got a bit stricter recently, but how strict exactly that I don'T know.

 

[ChrisE]

Isn't administring doping the same as selling drugs? *snip for brevity*.

If you think it is workable for some -ada for the UCI who finds some doctor breaking their rules to work out agreements with various medical licensing boards around the world to revoke the license of that doctor, while resolving all legal ramifications that comes with that, then more power to you.

I cannot explain the problem your idea presents any clearer than I already have. With that, I am sure you will feel free to continue to discuss your epiphany in here with like minded posters interested in the well-being of the sport. Perhaps you can write the ada's and UCI an email explaining your idea, and they will fall over eachother trying to figure out why they didn't think of it before.

 

[Fearless Greg Lemond]

If you think it is workable for some -ada for the UCI who finds some doctor breaking their rules to work out agreements with various medical licensing boards around the world to revoke the license of that doctor, while resolving all legal ramifications that comes with that, then more power to you.

I cannot explain the problem your idea presents any clearer than I already have. With that, I am sure you will feel free to continue to discuss your epiphany in here with like minded posters interested in the well-being of the sport. Perhaps you can write the ada's and UCI an email explaining your idea, and they will fall over eachother trying to figure out why they didn't think of it before.

I do feel u don't exactly agree with me

No problem Chris. In a Big Brother society it must be possible to take out the bad apples in sport medicine.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Isn't administring doping the same as selling drugs? A criminal offence I belief?

At PED's level, definitely not in the U.S. It may be against the law, but meaningless penalties, or generally the law is unenforceable. There's a class of drugs ex. morphine that it is a straight-up criminal offense because they are both powerful and addictive. As a general comment specific to the U.S. drug laws and their penalties are generally divided by social class. Severe penalties are legislated for drugs that are not used by the elite.

a lot can be done in regard with the team doctors, let alone the 'outside consultants'.

Not really. In Ferrari's case he's a Phd, not an MD. Pepe Marti is just some guy that sourced the PED's. It gets worse than that. The help in body building forums is very good and bleeding edge innovative if you post prepared. It's uncontrolled human experimentation, but that hasn't slowed anything down. None of the knowledge is secret either.

And then there's the simple fact the IOC passively encourages doping. Just don't get caught. Check out the case of Mark Block. http://www.letsrun.com/2012/block-0701.php A medalling athlete talked openly of being close friends with Block during his ban RIGHT AFTER WINNING her event. I've not seen such a quick admission to doping for a medal before and not a peep from her federation because she was pulling in the viewers. A past IOC president publicly argued for legalizing PED's. The IOC is fueling the doping across many sports.