Official lance armstrong thread, part 2 (from september 2012)

[thirteen]

Tyler Hamilton will be giving another interview tonight on Australian TV. He will be on '7:30' on ABC.

and it's up for all to see: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-10/former-lance-armstrong-teammate-describes-doping/4253740

 

[Mongol_Waaijer]

Hoorn Marathon

After noticing that he was not allowed to run in Chicago the organizers of the Hoorn Marathon in the Netherlands wrote on Lance's FB page asking him to run in their event.

It gave me great pleasure to write to the organizers expressing my concern that they want to have a convicted and suspended doper at their event, and what sort of example that sets to young runners. I also pointed out that the details emerging of the evidence will likely give bad publicity to any event that invites him.

Every little bit helps.

 

[LauraLyn]

After noticing that he was not allowed to run in Chicago the organizers of the Hoorn Marathon in the Netherlands wrote on Lance's FB page asking him to run in their event.

It gave me great pleasure to write to the organizers expressing my concern that they want to have a convicted and suspended doper at their event, and what sort of example that sets to young runners. I also pointed out that the details emerging of the evidence will likely give bad publicity to any event that invites him.

Every little bit helps.

Great stuff. Boycotting the products of Lance's sponsors is not a bad idea, but it is likely to have little impact on overall sales.

But athletes should make it known that they will not participate in any sports event in which Armstrong himself participates or Tailwinds, LiveStrong, USA Cycling's "Lance Armstrong's Junior Race Series," or in any amateur or professional event where a team participates associated with Armstrong (e.g., Trek-Livestrong U-23 Team, managed by doper Axel Merckx).

Mellow Johnny's bike shop should be run out of Austin, Texas-style.

 

[JA.Tri]

Tyler presented really well. Relaxed, tolerant and understanding, he came across as a voice of reason.

Shame Leigh Sales (ABC journo) came out with the same old hackneyed lines. Her presentation reflected either a lack of research or buy in to the LA PR.... they all doped...testing clean...

Tyler addressed all the PR guff exceptionally well. Tyler gave the impression of being sympathetic (but not overly so) to LA's situation. Based on his presentation LA has no substantive grounds to call him a "hater".

 

[frenchfry]

and it's up for all to see: http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-09-10/former-lance-armstrong-teammate-describes-doping/4253740

I can't figure out why they changed the title of Tyler's book to "The Sacred Rice" in Australia. I just finished it, and there was no mention of rice that I can remember.

 

[thirteen]

I can't figure out why they changed the title of Tyler's book to "The Sacred Rice" in Australia. I just finished it, and there was no mention of rice that I can remember.

i had a listen again -- lol

 

[DirtyWorks]

Mellow Johnny's bike shop should be run out of Austin, Texas-style.

LauraLyn, it's a bike shop, it's probably costing him a little money to keep it open. Seriously, the business model for bike shops is pathetic.

If you want to hit the guy harder, go after the appearances. That is "I get paid for just showing up." money. It's not going to pay the legal bills, but it will affect his ability to generate celebrity revenue.

Every third-tier athletic event with no WADA agreement will gladly take the joker. Their third-tier events though. That's a big pay cut for him.

 

[Sofa Rider]

Hi Laura and thank you for your kind response to my post. You make a lot of good points! You clearly have more insight into all this than I have, so thanks for sharing.

The question is: Do we need to see the evidence. If your neighbor is convicted in a court room for burglary, unless you attend the court hearing, you will never see the evidence. Likely though, unless there are good reasons to believe otherwise, you will believe that your neighbor committed the crime and the punishment is "just."

I wish I had rephrased my "We need to see the evidence" into "The WORLD needs to see the evidence". Personally I DO believe that USADA have the evidence that they need, to conclude that LA has been cheating. But what I mean is that I don't need to see it, although I would love to, but if it was made public maybe it would change the way some people look at LA? Would all his sponsors stick with a cheater like that?

Regarding "conspiracy theories" and the UCI. Given that the USADA's position appears much more believable and acceptable to that of Lance's, then we are in the position to ask ourselves how this was possible. We have seen a great deal of testimony from other riders, as well as suggestions from others working next to the parcours, that suggests the involvement of the UCI. We also have seen the behavior of Pat McQuaid and the very condemning letter from USADA council Brock, suggesting that at the very least there is a conflict of interest. Again, we do not "see evidence."

If these conspiracy theories are true, that LA had the UCI as more than a little helper, and the other way around, it surely would be the biggest scandal in the history of sports. Those conspiracy theories might be true, but as of yet, I won't put quotationmarks around them. And IF it is the truth, I fear they have the power to keep it covered up forever. Although I hope I am wrong.

And why is doping so rampant in cycling?

I think there's doping in a lotta of other sports than cycling. Found on the german wiki page on Erythropoetin: "According to calculations by the Italian sports scientist Prof. Alessandro Donati in 2007, 500,000 people worldwide dope themselves with EPO. According to the investigations by Donati, the annual production of EPO amount exceeds the actual medical need to be five to six times."
http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/Donati_Report_Trafficking_2007-03_06.pdf
There will always be doping in sports, but it IS cheating and all has to be done to try and clean it out.

You take a risk by reading all this and now participating in the conversation, I think. It will become much more difficult to enjoy the spectacle of cycling on TV if you become so suspicious as some of us here. And I can perfectly understand your hesitancy to find out that the fiction was more real than what the TV showed and that indeed, even in cycling, there are likely to be some UFOs.

No, I don't take any risks in participating, because cycling is a sport that I will always love. I might be a romantic, but I AM suspicious when I see athletes who suddenly performs much better than they used to. I was one of those who cheered for Bjarne Riis when he won the tdf in '96, although I was sure that he was cheating. Being danish myself maybe did it's trick on that...lol.
Heck, I even loved watching all those LA win's in the tdf, even if I knew he was cheating. I mostly watched it hoping that something or someone would cross his way, but it never happened. How could he ride in those 7 tdf'ses without ever having a bad crash (the platic bag one wasn't serious) and he never suffered from illness or anything else? Did they fix that too?

Basically we don't differ much in opinions about LA, cycling and doping and looking back, maybe putting UFO's into the context was going a bit too far.

But I gotta run now. ET's on the phone

 

[Sofa Rider]

Look at it from another perspective. If the riders know that Lance is snitching them off, and the UCI is listening to Lance, then the peloton is going to be even more fearful of Lance, the patron. That fear is going to further distort race-time behavior.

Thank you for your response!
It was obvious to me that LA had full control of the peloton. It was like he could rule it like it was his left pocket. I've never liked Lance and his evil sociopatic ways, but sorry, I can't believe in the "Golden Boy" theory...I might be naive, given some of the information I've read, but the thought is so far out...but it just might be true. I dunno...and if it's true, it will probably never be fully exposed.

 

[Sofa Rider]

(1) The recent reports of the "advance warning" of tests that LA got. Source: A member of the AFLD.

(2) Sylvia Schenck saying that she has no idea where the "Lance Armstrong donation" money went? We know Lance and Hein say that the money was for a sysmex, but when a former officer of the UCI says that there was no accountability for the money? (a) There's no accountability for the money? (b) The conflict of interest is obvious.

These two examples are the obvious ones. They supplement a lot of other, weaker, examples.

There are some ridiculous corruption conspiracy theories here, and I am very skeptical, but I am convinced that something is very, very rotten in the UCI.

Thank you for your response.

I agree that the 2 points you're making does make you speculate...
Where power resides, there always seems to be crookedness and dishonesty attached to it

 

[Tubeless]

Thank you for your response!
It was obvious to me that LA had full control of the peloton. It was like he could rule it like it was his left pocket. I've never liked Lance and his evil sociopatic ways, but sorry, I can't believe in the "Golden Boy" theory...I might be naive, given some of the information I've read, but the thought is so far out...but it just might be true. I dunno...and if it's true, it will probably never be fully exposed.

Back in the days when there was no WADA (most of the Armstrong years, WADA's rules took effect in 2004), the "golden boy" theory is entirely plausible. Take for example the alleged Tour de Swiss positive in 2001. The Lausanne lab that tested the sample had to report the positive just to UCI - as there was no WADA. UCI concluded it's not in their self-interest to nab a 2-time Tour de France champion and decided to offer a donation-alternative to Armstrong. It was the fox guarding the hen house.

Today it's harder to be a "golden boy". Labs testing samples are required to report both to the UCI and WADA simultaneously - and will be sanctioned severely if there's any suspicion of funny play. The only tricks UCI has left in their own arsenal to protect the riders is to give a "fair warning" before a UCI doping tester is coming to take a sample - often 20 mins is enough to take masking agents and prepare for the test. This is what the French are claiming happened with the Astana team at the 2009 and 2010 tours.

The Contador case was a test of the new system - Contador made an honest professional mistake and did not realize the German lab's testing equipment were better than his own private support lab, and got caught for a residual amount of Clenbuterol left in his blood, likely left in a blood bag earmarked for the 2nd rest day at TdF. UCI was powerless to save their new golden boy as WADA was pressing hard for a sanction.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I think there's doping in a lotta of other sports than cycling. Found on the german wiki page on Erythropoetin: "According to calculations by the Italian sports scientist Prof. Alessandro Donati in 2007, 500,000 people worldwide dope themselves with EPO. According to the investigations by Donati, the annual production of EPO amount exceeds the actual medical need to be five to six times."
http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/Donati_Report_Trafficking_2007-03_06.pdf
There will always be doping in sports, but it IS cheating and all has to be done to try and clean it out.

I don't know that a straight relationship between production and consumption is valid. To be conservative, I'd say 2-4 times to account for all kinds of legitimate reasons why something produced doesn't get consumed. That's still A BUNCH of illegitimate uses.

Some of the use gets back to the thresholds set so athletes wouldn't kill themselves with EPO related drugs. Unfortunately, this is a long term problem that hasn't been solved even if the UCI were a transparent, low-corruption organization.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Today it's harder to be a "golden boy". Labs testing samples are required to report both to the UCI and WADA simultaneously

Stop right there. This isn't true. Armstrong had a 2009(?) positive for blood manipulation that didn't start an anti-doping sanction event. This example at this point is not controversial either.

Also, a critical part of the anti-doping process from the very beginning within the biological passport system is the federation has total authority to open cases. WADA simply advises. It is still anti-doping theater. Athletes aren't killing themselves and that's something, but they can still dope. As others have elegantly stated, it's an IQ test more than anything else.

The Contador case was a test of the new system - Contador made an honest professional mistake

I hope that's sarcasm. You also fail to mention the UCI's failed attempt to suppress Contador's positive. German media did an end-run around the UCI to get the story.

 

[Tubeless]

Stop right there. This isn't true. Armstrong had a 2009(?) positive for blood manipulation that didn't start an anti-doping sanction event. This example at this point is not controversial either.

Also, a critical part of the anti-doping process from the very beginning within the biological passport system is the federation has total authority to open cases. WADA simply advises. It is still anti-doping theater. Athletes aren't killing themselves and that's something, but they can still dope. As others have elegantly stated, it's an IQ test more than anything else.

I hope that's sarcasm. You also fail to mention the UCI's failed attempt to suppress Contador's positive. German media did an end-run around the UCI to get the story.

Is the 2009 (?) "positive" for blood manipulation the one USADA is claiming as part of their evidence? We've yet to see the details on that one. It would appear this should have been caught by the UCI biological passport program - not by a standard doping test? Not surprising if UCI would have deemed Armstrong's passport values to be "a-ok" regardless of the data as it's part of their own self-policing mechanism, not subject to the WADA rules.

And yes, sarcasm on the Contador "mistake" - it's likely a friendly Spanish lab tested the blood bag stored away before the tour started and declared it clean, but once Contador got the blood on the 2nd rest day of the tour, the German lab that tested the actual TdF samples had much more sensitive equipment.

 

[LauraLyn]

. . . . I wish I had rephrased my "We need to see the evidence" into "The WORLD needs to see the evidence". Personally I DO believe that USADA have the evidence that they need, to conclude that LA has been cheating. But what I mean is that I don't need to see it, although I would love to, but if it was made public maybe it would change the way some people look at LA? Would all his sponsors stick with a cheater like that?

If these conspiracy theories are true, that LA had the UCI as more than a little helper, and the other way around, it surely would be the biggest scandal in the history of sports. Those conspiracy theories might be true, but as of yet, I won't put quotationmarks around them. And IF it is the truth, I fear they have the power to keep it covered up forever. Although I hope I am wrong.

I think there's doping in a lotta of other sports than cycling. Found on the german wiki page on Erythropoetin: "According to calculations by the Italian sports scientist Prof. Alessandro Donati in 2007, 500,000 people worldwide dope themselves with EPO. According to the investigations by Donati, the annual production of EPO amount exceeds the actual medical need to be five to six times."
http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/document/Donati_Report_Trafficking_2007-03_06.pdf
There will always be doping in sports, but it IS cheating and all has to be done to try and clean it out.

No, I don't take any risks in participating, because cycling is a sport that I will always love. I might be a romantic, but I AM suspicious when I see athletes who suddenly performs much better than they used to. I was one of those who cheered for Bjarne Riis when he won the tdf in '96, although I was sure that he was cheating. Being danish myself maybe did it's trick on that...lol.
Heck, I even loved watching all those LA win's in the tdf, even if I knew he was cheating. I mostly watched it hoping that something or someone would cross his way, but it never happened. How could he ride in those 7 tdf'ses without ever having a bad crash (the plastics bag one wasn't serious) and he never suffered from illness or anything else? Did they fix that too?

Basically we don't differ much in opinions about LA, cycling and doping and looking back, maybe putting UFO's into the context was going a bit too far.

But I gotta run now. ET's on the phone

We do agree on what is important. We can discuss the facts until angels start to dance on the head of a pin, but we are still pedaling in the same direction.

I'm afraid the world will go hungry for the USADA's evidence on Lance. And that was Lance's decision. But again, we are talking about angels.

In life many secrets stay secrets. We can all be happy for that from time to time. The UCI is no different. [Question: Replace "UCI" with "ASO." Do Lance's wins and complicity from the outside now become more convincing? And does anyone really think the UCI has much to say to the ASO regarding Le Tour? If the ASO is more appetizing (or less), the UCI is easy to fit in the picture.]

Frankly, 500,000 sounds like not so much to me. Baseball, football (American or Canadian or Australian or "the real deal"), track & field, tennis, swimming, body building junkies, professional wrestling, bocci, . . . Seems like a small number to me. Donati's Report is nice, but it doesn't have the proper methodology or research procedures to be significant. Without better studies we simply won't know. (And do you see the EU Framework Programme or NIH funding such a study?)

Nothing wrong with a romantic. Cycling needs them. And Danes are a worthy folk: they all believe in mermaids, at least one.

Last time ET was at my house, he raided my fridge and we both ended up drunk on a local brew. He's a cute guy. He wanted to ride in the basket on my Stingray, but we ended up watching the Vuelta instead.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Is the 2009 (?) "positive" for blood manipulation the one USADA is claiming as part of their evidence? We've yet to see the details on that one.

The NPR interview I heard with Tygart called this one out as fact. USADA simply does not have a bully pulpit like a Verdgruggen or McQaid. So, I'm lead to believe that they've got this one nailed down.

FWIW As Ashenden so accurately described, once their conclusions pass from WADA science finding to become legal evidence practically all sorts of rhetorical tactics can be used to persuade a court to doubt WADA's findings. The great news here is Armstrong closed this door by not engaging in arbitration.

It would appear this should have been caught by the UCI biological passport program - not by a standard doping test?

My understanding of the bio-passport system is it tracks values that have strong indications of doping and doping evasion and that evidence can be collected via urine and blood samples. IMHO, I think differentiating between some longitudinal values and "standard doping tests" is probably not accurate.

 

[Deagol]

..... So either those documents are confidential, and I do not see who else apart USADA would benefit from their disclosure, or they are public.....

They (at least arbitrations that actually happen) are public.

You can get the Reasoned Decisions straight from their website.

http://www.usada.org/arbitration-decisions/

The question, though: will they issue a similar "Reasoned Decision" based on the evidence, even if no arbitration occured?

Travis Tygart has stated before that the evidence will be released, when it's time. I can only guess that this time will be when all the cases have been wrapped up.

 

[Deagol]

After noticing that he was not allowed to run in Chicago the organizers of the Hoorn Marathon in the Netherlands wrote on Lance's FB page asking him to run in their event.

It gave me great pleasure to write to the organizers expressing my concern that they want to have a convicted and suspended doper at their event, and what sort of example that sets to young runners. I also pointed out that the details emerging of the evidence will likely give bad publicity to any event that invites him.

Every little bit helps.

Thank you for doing this.

 

[LauraLyn]

They are public.

You can get the Reasoned Decisions straight from their website.

http://www.usada.org/arbitration-decisions/

Thanks.

Any idea why the "Reasoned Decisions" regarding Ferrari and del Moral are not yet posted there?

 

[Deagol]

Thanks.

Any idea why the "Reasoned Decisions" regarding Ferrari and del Moral are not yet posted there?

Edited my original post. I am guessing that it may be due to the fact that it is unknown if Bruyneel's will actually occur and they might need to wait until all the cases are cleared up before releasing this info (speculation on my part). Obviously, they could compromise their other cases if they released the info from one of the other cases linked through the same evidence. This could draw out for a while.


by the way, here is the official sanction:

http://www.usada.org/sanctions/



Lance Armstrong Cycling Lifetime Ban - Loss of Results EPO, Testosterone, Blood Transfusions and Corticosteroids, Trafficking, Administration to others


As of today, three additional athletes (2 of which are cyclists) have been sanctioned by USADA, funny how we don't get this "witch hunt" garbage shoved down our throats about these three.

 

[LauraLyn]

They (at least arbitrations that actually happen) are public.

You can get the Reasoned Decisions straight from their website.

http://www.usada.org/arbitration-decisions/

The question, though: will they issue a similar "Reasoned Decision" based on the evidence, even if no arbitration occured?

Travis Tygart has stated before that the evidence will be released, when it's time. I can only guess that this time will be when all the cases have been wrapped up.

Ok. Thanks. Makes sense.

I see witnesses are named in other Reasoned Decisons. That seems like a good precedent.

 

[Frank Tuesday]

LauraLyn, it's a bike shop, it's probably costing him a little money to keep it open. Seriously, the business model for bike shops is pathetic.

It is a bike shop, but it is more of a merchandise store than a bike shop. When they interview mechanics, instead of asking them about their technical skills, the ask how quickly they can fold t-shirts.

 

[LauraLyn]

Edited my original post. I am guessing that it may be due to the fact that it is unknown if Bruyneel's will actually occur and they might need to wait until all the cases are cleared up before releasing this info (speculation on my part). Obviously, they could compromise their other cases if they released the info from one of the other cases linked through the same evidence. This could draw out for a while.

Right. Makes perfect sense.

Don't forget, it is not just Bruyneel. Celaya and Marti are still waiting in the wings. (I have a hunch Marti might be the wild card. Just a hunch.)

Anyway, you did a lot to enlighten this discussion. Much appreciated.

Edit:

'As of today, three additional athletes (2 of which are cyclists) have been sanctioned by USADA, funny how we don't get this "witch hunt" garbage shoved down our throats about these three.'

You don't really think Lance wants to share the limelight with other witches.

 

[Deagol]

Right. Makes perfect sense.

Don't forget, it is not just Bruyneel. Celaya and Marti are still waiting in the wings. (I have a hunch Marti might be the wild card. Just a hunch.)

Anyway, you did a lot to enlighten this discussion. Much appreciated.

Thank you, but posters like RaceRadio make this forum great. I am afraid he may be gone.

 

[Deagol]

by the way, here is the official sanction:

http://www.usada.org/sanctions/



Lance Armstrong Cycling Lifetime Ban - Loss of Results EPO, Testosterone, Blood Transfusions and Corticosteroids, Trafficking, Administration to others


As of today, three additional athletes (2 of which are cyclists) have been sanctioned by USADA, funny how we don't get this "witch hunt" garbage shoved down our throats about these three.

I am responding to my own post (ala Hog).

But the above got me thinking:

USADA is quietly going about their job without seeking publicity. If this were about any witch hunt or vendetta, one would expect the USADA to be putting all their resources into the Lance case and the other related cases. Some may say that the Lance case is over, but it is not- in that the decision has not yet been made public and the other arbitrations (if they ever will really occur) have not yet happened.

The USADA is going about their normal business, while trying to move these high-profile cases along to conclusion. There is no special news blurb on their website along the lines of "we got Lance, hooray for us !!" as LA's PR camp would have us believe is Tygart's motivation.
Instead, you get a detailed accounting of the basic facts like this:
http://www.usada.org/media/sanction-armstrong8242012



As for the sanctions, Lance's name is listed there, right along with the other offenders, not highlighted to stand out from those who are not rich & famous.