Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

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Dec 7, 2010
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Merckx index said:
Me, too! LA has already been sanctioned for fifteen years, about the longest in the history of the sport. If his ban ended today, it would still be about five times longer than the longest ban any of the other riders in the USADA decision served. Longer than Ricco's, when that one ends in 2024.
:confused:

Something got lost in translation there. No matter how times I re-read that bit I can't make sense of it.

I'm equally confused as to why you "quoted" me, but then changed the wording of my "quote." That's not really a "quote" (and whatever the intended result was is also lost on me).

And I quote:
quote

: to repeat (something written or said by another person) exactly
http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/quote

The-Simpsons-Dr.-Nick-LEGO-Minifigure-Screenshot.png
 
May 26, 2010
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
Agree, of course. But what what has that to do with what i said? :confused:
I waited 10 yrs that LA is uncovered, didn´t really believe it was ever to happen... but now he´s finished. Let him have a chance to compete clean in triathlon. If he won´t do it clean, he´ll end up like Ben Johnson anyway.

why? he never tested positive, why would he get caught now? He is too clued in to get caught doping now.

Johnson tested positive at the olympic final! Dont remember LA being caught during the TdF and stripped!

No a lifetime ban unless he comes completely clean on EVERYTHING, from teenager doping to 2010 and all those who enabled it.
 
New Yorker review on The Armstrong Lie. It is the second review after Catching Fire.

http://www.newyorker.com/arts/critics/cinema/2013/12/02/131202crci_cinema_denby?currentPage=1


“The Armstrong Lie” goes on forever, perhaps because Gibney can’t believe that, like everyone else, he’s been had. Again and again, he looks for elements of moral clarity (never mind remorse) in Armstrong, and the cyclist looks back at Gibney (and at us) as if he were a fool. His attitude is: Don’t you get it?

Lance will never get it.......
 
MarkvW said:
And Lance WILL be forgiven, because the myth of Rise--Fall--Redemption MUST be fulfilled. You can rage against it all you want, but it is inevitably going to happen. As sure as Lance's confession on Oprah, it's going to happen.

The media demands (and it will have) a Lance-Redemption story. It cannot be denied. Everything outside the momentary reality of any sport is just rehashed mythology--and the mythology of redemption is too potent and irresistible to (lazy) sportswriters.

There is no redemption story here. For that to happen, Armstrong has to show some genuine contrition, and he is emotionally and psychologically unable to do so.

Look at his personality, now that it has been stripped of all arrogance and hubris. He still cannot apologize to anyone he's hurt and always turns everything around to make it seem as if he's the aggrieved party.

His personality fit the corporate win-at-all-costs, eat-your-rivals-for-breakfast model that every single A-type personality yuppie in North America so desperately wanted to emulate. He's let them down by having gotten caught, and that is the one unforgivable sin.

It doesn't work the other way around for someone like Lance. You really do need to put a little bit more thought into how this is playing out before making such statements about a downfall-redemption scenario that's never going to happen. Some situations don't fit the cookie-cutter mold.
 
Americans are not really a forgiving bunch. We like the death penalty and all that. Can't think of many (seriously) disgraced American sports heroes that made a comeback to the public's good graces. Michael Vick is back, but he will never be a very marketable quantity; Barry Bonds is basically a permanent outcast we'd all like to forget, and AFAIK he was never even proven guilty; Marion Jones, who?? Dopers get it the worst, Vick and Tiger Woods can sort of manage sporting comebacks but will never be held in the highest esteem. The American sporting hero's status is largely dictated by marketability, as judged by Nike, which doesn't see a need to push damaged goods when there are plenty of unblemished facades out there to brand the swoosh on. Plus Lance has lost his chance to win us back through feats of athleticism.
 
Berzin said:
Look at his personality, now that it has been stripped of all arrogance and hubris.

Nitpicking a bit here: he's been stripped of titles that externally supported his arrogance and hubris. He's still a legend in his own mind, as arrogant and full of hubris as ever. Now that there are no titles to back it, he's still the @#$#$% we all know him to really be, but fans have nothing to excuse his awful public self.

Berzin said:
His personality fit the corporate win-at-all-costs, eat-your-rivals-for-breakfast model that every single A-type personality yuppie in North America so desperately wanted to emulate. He's let them down by having gotten caught, and that is the one unforgivable sin.

Agreed. For many of the fans, it seems getting caught and then doubly frustrating is actual consequences really is the issue. Very interesting insight into the modern American mentality circa 2000 forward.
 
Briant_Gumble said:
IMO, Lance is about as likely to make a comeback in the sports world as Berbie Madhoff is on Wall Street.

Don't count him out yet. Lance is a fighter. If it means turning in some of his thieving pals, then that's okay.

If he had to turn in Wiesel to get some reduction, then Thom's got something to worry about. But it looks like, today, Thom is safe. Carmichael certainly is not at this point.

Fight Lance fight!
 
Berzin said:
There is no redemption story here. For that to happen, Armstrong has to show some genuine contrition, and he is emotionally and psychologically unable to do so.

Look at his personality, now that it has been stripped of all arrogance and hubris. He still cannot apologize to anyone he's hurt and always turns everything around to make it seem as if he's the aggrieved party.

His personality fit the corporate win-at-all-costs, eat-your-rivals-for-breakfast model that every single A-type personality yuppie in North America so desperately wanted to emulate. He's let them down by having gotten caught, and that is the one unforgivable sin.

It doesn't work the other way around for someone like Lance. You really do need to put a little bit more thought into how this is playing out before making such statements about a downfall-redemption scenario that's never going to happen. Some situations don't fit the cookie-cutter mold.

Sports media is pure cookie-cutter writing. Reused hackneyed cliches, over and over again. Sportswriters are, most generally, dull unimaginative hacks. Those hacks need to write stories to put bread on the table. They can't think up creative and thoughtful pieces so they resort to the same old cliches. And there are lots and lots of dull, unimaginative hack sportswriters.

Many here in the Clinic are convinced that Lance Armstrong is the worst and meanest person that ever pedaled a bicycle (and they're often mean and rude to anybody who disputes that). This is because Lance's situation resonates a certain way in their moral order. That's all fine and dandy. We each have our own particular value opinions. I'm not talking about whether any individual is right or wrong in their assessment of Lance Armstrong or his behavior. I'm talking about the media's craving for stories--stories that work--stories that sell--stories that are easy to write. The Rise--Fall--Redemption story is one of those stories.

Just like the Rise--Fall--Redemption myth is not about our own individualized value judgements, the Rise--Fall--Redemption myth is also not about Lance Armstrong either. Examine the "Rise" part of the myth. There is no doubt that the media close to Lance knew that Lance was an absolute dung-head in almost every way. But the media ignored Lance's awful--and obviously apparent--characteristics when they chose to write about the rise and triumph of an American sporting hero. Why did they do that? Easy! Because the "Rise from Adversity" myth is an easy and popular story to write and sell. It's a tried and true prefabricated cookie-cutter story. When did we EVER see a balanced story about Lance when he was "rising from adversity?" We never did. The sporting media fed us cliches because that's what we want to see and hear. I don't think that they are going to stop doing that now. Lance remains a magnet for readers--and the sportswriters are going to keep feeding us those hackneyed cliches that we love to read.

Sports and sports media do not do "unforgivable sins." I just read about a soccer striker who received only a five year ban for match fixing. That shocked even me. I had thought that gambling offenses were permanently unforgivable. Obviously nothing is, any more.

Lance, as noted by others, has already had a really long ban. If Lance had cut a deal earlier, he'd be doing triathlons now. There is no reason to suspect that Lance couldn't get a reduced ban if he came clean now--maybe not as good as he would have gotten from a timely confession, but still a reduction. The only thing stopping Lance from truthfully confessing everything now is his own mountain of legal problems. Once those legal problems are resolved, Lance will produce an adequate confession and the Redemption phase of the Lance-Myth will continue.

But if Lance can't cut the championship grade at old-man triathlons (as many suggest), then he'll just be forgotten . . . ..
 
Briant_Gumble said:
IMO, Lance is about as likely to make a comeback in the sports world as Berbie Madhoff is on Wall Street.

He is starting to look like Jeannie Longo, pathetically doing anything to stay in competition long after it has become unsightly. And needing to dope to do so.
 
May 26, 2010
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frenchfry said:
He is starting to look like Jeannie Longo, pathetically doing anything to stay in competition long after it has become unsightly. And needing to dope to do so.

Bingo.

He will do anything to compete and while competing he will do anything to win.

He is the antithesis of the meaning of sport.
 
frenchfry said:
He is starting to look like Jeannie Longo, pathetically doing anything to stay in competition long after it has become unsightly. And needing to dope to do so.

I think your comparison is apt.

But someday you're going to get old too! I hope that you continue to do the "unsightly" things that personally move you, regardless of other peoples' opinions. Except for the doping, I rather admire the way Jeannie Longo gives the finger to the whole world.
 
May 26, 2010
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MarkvW said:
I think your comparison is apt.

But someday you're going to get old too! I hope that you continue to do the "unsightly" things that personally move you, regardless of other peoples' opinions. Except for the doping, I rather admire the way Jeannie Longo gives the finger to the whole world.

Longo aint giving the finger to anyone, she is fooling herself, just like Armstrong is with his BS about level playing field, one of the team of dopers, never doped in '09/'10. Longo looks pathetic riding juiced out of her old body. Aint nothing for Longo to be proud of.
 
Benotti69 said:
Longo aint giving the finger to anyone, she is fooling herself, just like Armstrong is with his BS about level playing field, one of the team of dopers, never doped in '09/'10. Longo looks pathetic riding juiced out of her old body. Aint nothing for Longo to be proud of.

Doping transformed Longo from an elite racehorse to a super-elite durable racehorse. By any standard, she is a complete and utter freak. She obliterated the level playing field!

She dominated before EPO. She was a racehorse before EPO.
 
May 26, 2010
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MarkvW said:
Doping transformed Longo from an elite racehorse to a super-elite durable racehorse. By any standard, she is a complete and utter freak. She obliterated the level playing field!

She dominated before EPO. She was a racehorse before EPO.

It was such a big field:rolleyes: I imagine Longo always doped.
 
Jun 15, 2009
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Benotti69 said:
why? he never tested positive, why would he get caught now? He is too clued in to get caught doping now.

Johnson tested positive at the olympic final! Dont remember LA being caught during the TdF and stripped!

No a lifetime ban unless he comes completely clean on EVERYTHING, from teenager doping to 2010 and all those who enabled it.

Briant_Gumble said:
What does that mean?

There is some stories about that Carl Lewis friend had his hand into it. True or not, they caught Johnson once. But not the 100 times before. What changed after? Well, no mo $, no mo sophisticated dope program, but old school the cheap Lithuanian way. They catch the poor dopers, so if LA dares to do it again, he´ll be caught...
 
May 26, 2010
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FoxxyBrown1111 said:
There is some stories about that Carl Lewis friend had his hand into it. True or not, they caught Johnson once. But not the 100 times before. What changed after? Well, no mo $, no mo sophisticated dope program, but old school the cheap Lithuanian way. They catch the poor dopers, so if LA dares to do it again, he´ll be caught...

Bloomberg reckoned Armstrong made $220million, he can still afford Ferrari......
 
Granville57 said:
:confused:

Something got lost in translation there. No matter how times I re-read that bit I can't make sense of it.

I made the mistake of assuming that anyone who complained so much that others weren’t paying attention to his posts would actually read mine. That's why I said, me too!

I’m not going to go all over the point that doping sanctions can be both proactive and retroactive--I spelled it out clearly upthread--but I’ll just say that if you can’t understand that LA has been sanctioned for fifteen years so far, you must think that Contador was sanctioned for just six months. I can assure you if you read the decision in that case, that is not what they say.

The USADA document then provides the specifics behind this reasoning. It's all right there for everyone to read. No mystery. No behavior on the part of USADA that they are not fully entitled to. None.

The portions of the USADA document you quote justify increasing sanctions, but nothing in your post shows they were justified in increasing them to the point of a lifetime ban. And in fact, Tygart’s own words indicate very clearly that a lifetime ban was not what he had in mind.

Tygart was widely quoted saying that if LA had come in and talked, his sanction would have been much lighter, perhaps two lost TDF titles and six months to a year going forward. Now some may believe that was never really on the table, but that doesn’t matter. The point is, Tygart said it was, which sends a clear message that he thought that lighter ban was adequate punishment for what LA did. If Tygart believed otherwise, it would have been very irresponsible of him to say that.

So how did LA end up losing all his titles and a lifetime ban? Part of the reason surely was because LA didn’t come in and talk; he resisted cooperating. But that can’t be the entire reason. Why not? The WADA code specifies how much a sanction may be reduced if the athlete cooperates substantially with investigators:

No more than three-quarters of the otherwise applicable period of ineligibility may be suspended. If the otherwise applicable period of ineligibility is a lifetime, the non-suspended period under this section may be no less than eight (8) years.
(10.5.3)

This passage makes it crystal clear that if LA’s sanction if he had cooperated had been loss of some titles and six months or a year going forward, there is NO WAY that the sanction for not cooperating could be extended to a lifetime. You simply can’t get from A to B following the WADA code.

So how did WADA get from A to B? Here’s my theory: When LA refused to cooperate and the deadline had passed and USADA published the charging letter, they must have anticipated that LA would fight the charges. Indeed, USADA invited LA to skip the usual procedure and take the case straight to CAS. If you anticipate a lengthy legal battle, it makes sense to stake out an extreme, hardline position. Often in such cases, both sides will seek to settle, and the more extreme your position is, the more you can give up and still get what you want. With the death penalty in place, USADA had several TDF titles and many years of reduced ban to offer in return for getting what they had originally wanted.

In summary, if you take Tygart at his word, USADA never believed that the draconian penalty they gave LA followed from his anti-doping infractions. On the contrary, he publicly stated that those infractions would have led to a relatively mild ban if he had cooperated. If one applies the maximum three-quarter rule for cooperation, this suggests that what they had in mind without cooperation was two to four years going forward, along with perhaps the complete loss of TDF titles as actually they ruled.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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Merckx index said:
So how did LA end up losing all his titles and a lifetime ban?
I don't know, and you don't seem to be explaining it either. :confused:

Seriously, only a fool would suggest that you aren't one of the more intelligent posters on this forum. You'll have to take my word that I am not trolling you. But I'm not following along here.

My original point (and it was directed at a much wider audience than just the participants here. Anyone who writes about this topic reads The Clinic, whether they admit to it or not) was that the suggestion that Armstrong's harsh penalty was due to things outside of USADA's jurisdiction was simply false. I'm not clear as to how you are suggesting otherwise. Or are you?

It's not my intention to vortex this topic into the ground. I'm just not clear on what your position is. Maybe someone else needs to chime in on either side of this for a different perspective.

Armstrong was charged with a series of violations that the others in the Reasoned Decision were not. That, to me, is the key as to why the penalties between he and "them" differed so much. Do we agree on that?

Thanks. Seriously.
 

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