Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[trailrunner]

Not every ex-doper tried to ruin the lives of so many other peoples. Not every doper lied, lied, lied. Not every doper made as much money as he did. Not every doper hid behind the cancer shield.

Forgot to say: Not every doper bribed officials to get out of positive tests. Not every doper called in positive tests on other riders. Not every doper intimidated witnesses.

 

[D-Queued]

Forgot to say: Not every doper bribed officials to get out of positive tests. Not every doper called in positive tests on other riders. Not every doper intimidated witnesses.

Are you sure?

I heard that someone who outta know about these things let it be known that they are all doing it...

All those Choads, that is.

That makes it a level playing field. 'Cuz he said it was.



Dave.

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

He only confessed because he was caught and convicted, and he only confessed when it was in HIS best interest. He deserves no mercy whatsoever.

For all of us sitting here before our computers. Who would have not confessed for his best interest?
Who would have confessed in life before caught of something? Did anyone of you tell your wife if secretly double-dealing? Who does commit suicide that way?

Hey guys, we live on earth, the world is bad, and humans are egoists to a certain point. Some more, some less.

At the end of the day: The truth hurts, that´s why pipo go on with their lies.

Geez, the same happened here in germany with Ullrich. First pipo believe in fairy tales and get ecstatic about him, and then go havoc when reality hits them. Another reason why lies go on. Pipo just want to get told what they wanna hear. No evolution whatsoever it seems...

 

[Polyarmour]

Not every ex-doper tried to ruin the lives of so many other peoples.

When handing out these bans they have a checksheet.
Does the evidence say he doped? Yes
Did he cooperate? No
Etc
I'm not sure "Was he a bast**d" is on the checksheet?

Then what of those who helped him and advised him?
Where are their bans?

Not every doper lied, lied, lied.

Yeah pretty much they did.

Not every doper made as much money as he did.

Irrelevant: We don't hand out sentences based on how much money they made.

Not every doper hid behind the cancer shield.

They all hid behind something. Once again this is not relevant to determining the length of the ban.

His punishment of a lifetime ban fits his crimes.

It's not consistent with other bans and at some point they will have to acknowledge it.

 

[trailrunner]

When handing out these bans they have a checksheet.
Does the evidence say he doped? Yes
Did he cooperate? No
Etc

Yep, and that's why he was handed a lifetime ban.

Now we're talking about sympathy points because now he's trying to play nice. That's where all the factors I listed come in. No sympathy points, no backing down because now he's got religion and is now trying to be nice. Stop feeling sorry for him. It's way too late for him to repent.

If he wants to go for a run, he can run around in his neighborhood. He should never again pin on a number.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

It just dawned on me that Weisel has enough cash to split the settlement expenses with LA to keep him off the stand. His loss would be relatively minimal relative to his overall wealth, and would keep him 'un-soiled'.....and Lance would cut his cost in half or some other discount.

 

[Granville57]

Not every ex-doper tried to ruin the lives of so many other peoples. Not every doper lied, lied, lied. Not every doper made as much money as he did. Not every doper hid behind the cancer shield.

His punishment of a lifetime ban fits his crimes.

I swear to Christ, my head is going to explode if I have to keep hammering this point home. The severity of USADA's action against Armstrong was not based upon his personality flaws. It wasn't because of the lives and careers that he deliberately sought to destroy.
IT WAS BECAUSE OF ARMSTRONG'S ACTIONS AS THEY APPLY TO USADA'S JURISDICTION!

It can be confusing. I understand. But stop making *** up about WHY Armstrong was penalized so heavily. It deflects from the facts in a way that is not useful.

SO AGAIN...

Apparently I'm going to have to keep reposting this, as people who are otherwise far too smart are acting far too stupid in regards to this topic.

Armstrong was not handed more severe sanctions just because he is a ***. He was handed more severe sanctions because of the more extensive violations (as listed below). And it was well within USADA's rights to do so (as also explained below).

Should be pretty easy to figure out.
You're welcome.

FFS, this argument has been gaining WAY too much traction lately by people that should, quite frankly, know better. It's not like USADA didn't provide us all with the details behind their decision, ya' know a REASONED DECISION?

It's all right there. There is absolutely no need to employ short-term memory or selective reading when evaluating exactly what actions USADA took against Armstrong and why. IT'S ALL RIGHT THERE!
-----------------

USADA Reasoned Decision
Page 7

II. CHARGES AGAINST LANCE ARMSTRONG

The anti-doping rule violations for which Mr. Armstrong was sanctioned include:

(1) Use and/or attempted use of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO,
blood transfusions, testosterone, corticosteroids and/or masking agents.
(2) Possession of prohibited substances and/or methods including EPO, blood transfusions and related equipment (such as needles, blood bags, storage containers and other transfusion equipment and blood parameters measuring devices), testosterone, corticosteroids and/or masking agents.15
(3) Trafficking of EPO, testosterone, and/or corticosteroids.
(4) Administration and/or attempted administration to others of EPO, testosterone, 
and/or cortisone.
(5) Assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up and other complicity 
involving one or more anti-doping rule violations and/or attempted anti-doping rule violations.
(6) Aggravating circumstances (including multiple rule violations and participated in a sophisticated scheme and conspiracy to dope, encourage and assist others to dope and cover up rule violations) justifying a period of ineligibility greater than the standard sanction.

-----------
Further clarification is provided later in the same document:
-----------

Page 146
VI. EVIDENCE OF ARMSTRONG’S EFFORTS TO SUPPRESS THE TRUTH ABOUT HIS ANTI-DOPING RULE VIOLATIONS

Article 2.8 of the World Anti-Doping Code includes as an anti-doping rule violation, “assisting, encouraging, aiding, abetting, covering up or any other type of complicity involving an anti-doping rule violation or any Attempted anti-doping rule violation.”

Additionally, proof that an athlete “engaged in deceptive or obstructing conduct to avoid the detection or adjudication of an anti-doping rule violation” can be grounds for increasing a sanction. Fraudulent concealment or other efforts to subvert the legal process, such as perjury or witness intimidation can also result in suspension or waiver of the statute of limitations.

Accordingly, in this section USADA discusses some of the evidence of efforts by Armstrong and his entourage to cover up rule violations, suppress the truth, obstruct or subvert the legal process and thereby encourage doping.
---------

The USADA document then provides the specifics behind this reasoning. It's all right there for everyone to read. No mystery. No behavior on the part of USADA that they are not fully entitled to. None.


Allow me to reiterate a few important and pertinent points in all of the above:

"Aggravating circumstances...justifying a period of ineligibility greater than the standard sanction."

"Additionally, proof that an athlete “engaged in deceptive or obstructing conduct to avoid the detection or adjudication of an anti-doping rule violation” can be grounds for increasing a sanction. Fraudulent concealment or other efforts to subvert the legal process, such as perjury or witness intimidation can also result in suspension or waiver of the statute of limitations".







"...can be grounds for increasing a sanction."

 

[MarkvW]

I swear to Christ, my head is going to explode if I have to keep hammering this point home. The severity of USADA's action against Armstrong was not based upon his personality flaws. It wasn't because of the lives and careers that he deliberately sought to destroy.
IT WAS BECAUSE OF ARMSTRONG'S ACTIONS AS THEY APPLY TO USADA'S JURISDICTION!

It can be confusing. I understand. But stop making *** up about WHY Armstrong was penalized so heavily. It deflects from the facts in a way that is not useful.

SO AGAIN...

Maybe the UCI ought to rename itself the UKNCI: Union of Kind and Nice Cyclists International (life-destroyers and other meanies need not apply).

 

[ebandit]

suck it and see

right now lance is deserving of his lifetime ban

I have no objection of that being reduced if lance works on it

however observing lance's unwillingness to testify in court what are the chances of lance being an active participant in T & R?

or putting in unpaid work at livestrong / grass roots sporting events

Mark L

 

[darwin553]

I will only accept a reduction in LA's sentence if he throws not only Hein under the bus but JB too - with emphasis on the latter given JB is so willing to fight on.

 

[sideshadow]

I will only accept a reduction in LA's sentence if he throws not only Hein under the bus but JB too - with emphasis on the latter given JB is so willing to fight on.

I'll accept a reduction if he offers something knew, on players still in the game. Like telling us how he and SBW discussed their use of AICAR

 

[JMBeaushrimp]

Thank you, Granville.

 

[DirtyWorks]

For all of us sitting here before our computers. Who would have not confessed for his best interest?
Who would have confessed in life before caught of something? Did anyone of you tell your wife if secretly double-dealing? Who does commit suicide that way?.

Enough already. Clean(er) athletes either suffered engineered mediocrity or left. Probably the best case is Edwig Van Hooydonck. Whatever you do, don't let his story challenge your world view because that's exactly what it does.

An alternative is to make doping personal, again. Foxxy, your son/daughter is identified as being an extraordinary young athlete. Since you aren't judging dopers, then you'll start your kid doping as soon as possible, certainly as a teenager. What's the first doping protocol? When do you let her/him do their own injections? Where do you source the Testosterone patches? I'm not going to judge you and you don't judge dopers, so please tell us what's first.

This it the consequence of a permissive doping environment and exactly what was happening in cycling. Wonderboy outed Carmichael as Carmichael doping teenagers at USA Cycling.

Don't back down now, tell us what the imagined doping protocols for your child will be.

 

[DirtyWorks]

I will only accept a reduction in LA's sentence if he throws not only Hein under the bus but JB too - with emphasis on the latter given JB is so willing to fight on.

I need a lifetime ban and ideally some criminal prosecutions of his management team including Wiesel, Johnson, Knaggs, and the rest.

Judging by his latest press, he's protecting those guys and definitely outed Carmichael as a doper. Still the same Wonderboy.

 

[IndianCyclist]

I'll accept a reduction if he offers something knew, on players still in the game. Like telling us how he and SBW discussed their use of AICAR

I think one of the persons he can throw under the bus is 2009 Contador but he keeps insisting that comeback was clean.

 

[Samson777]

I think one of the persons he can throw under the bus is 2009 Contador but he keeps insisting that comeback was clean.

There is not a lot of doubt that he could do that, but yes he would have to give up his comeback lie then... JB could do that as well very soon,
but I don't see it happening.. Unless Garmin sign Contador up...

 

[MacRoadie]

Frankly, Hein's lies are roughly equal to a roundhouse kick from Chuck Norris...

FALSE!!!

NOTHING is equal to a roundhouse kick from Chuck Norris.

 

[D-Queued]

I will only accept a reduction in LA's sentence if he throws not only Hein under the bus but JB too - with emphasis on the latter given JB is so willing to fight on.

And Ferrari, and Wiesel, and Carmichael, and every other aider and abetter along with a detailed explanation on how they knowingly deceived SCA as well as how Lance leveraged his past experience of back-room deals when he took the Thrift Drug $1m.

Whatever he did to cheat prior to that while in Triathlon, or in his high school swim meet, can remain undisclosed.

Dave.

 

[Merckx index]

I swear to Christ, my head is going to explode if I have to keep hammering this point home.

Me, too! LA has already been sanctioned for fifteen years, about the longest in the history of the sport. If his ban ended today, it would still be about five times longer than the longest ban any of the other riders in the USADA decision served. Longer than Ricco's, when that one ends in 2024.

It can be confusing. I understand. But stop making *** up about HOW LONG Armstrong HAS BEEN penalized. It deflects from the facts in a way that is not useful.

LA’s transgressions were greater than those of the other riders, and to make his case worse, he didn’t come in and talk as they did. As a result, he deserves to be penalized more severely than they were, and he has. He has lost far more of his palmares than they have, which is even worse considering that he had far more to lose.

Imagine a group of bank robbers who steal $10,000 each, and after they get caught, they have to go to jail for six months and pay a $1000 fine. The ringleader steals $1 million, and has to pay a $1 million fine, and has been in jail for a year to date. Is that enough, or does he also have to stay in jail for the rest of his life?

I’m not saying LA does not deserve a lifetime ban. I’m not saying USADA had no right to give him one. I am questioning what purpose it serves at this point. I know some here are just certain sure positive that if the ban is lifted, LA will dope his way to world champion Ironman, all his sponsors will return, and in a few years he will have made another $100 million. Beyond the fact that I don’t buy that scenario in any way, shape or form whatsoever, I don’t see that it does, or should, figure into USADA’s determination at all.

An alternative is to make DRINKING personal, again. DW, your son/daughter is identified as being an extraordinary young INDIVIDUAL. Since you aren't judging PEOPLE WHO DRINK, then you'll start your kid DRINKING as soon as possible, certainly as a teenager. What's the first DRINK? When do you let her/him BUY HIS OWN BOOZE? Where do you source the HARD STUFF? I'm not going to judge you and you don't judge DRINKERS, so please tell us what's first.

This iS the consequence of LEGALIZING ALCOHOL and exactly what was happening in cycling.

Don't back down now, tell us what the imagined BEVERAGES for your child will be.

No, this is not intended as an argument for legalizing doping. But it does suggest that all the arguments against legalizing doping are not quite so slam-dunk as their proponents want to believe.

 

[darwin553]

I am questioning what purpose it serves at this point. I know some here are just certain sure positive that if the ban is lifted, LA will dope his way to world champion Ironman, all his sponsors will return, and in a few years he will have made another $100 million. Beyond the fact that I don’t buy that scenario in any way, shape or form whatsoever, I don’t see that it does, or should, figure into USADA’s determination at all.

What you are arguing for is like a mob boss who has been found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, drug trafficking etc. and who is just as culpable as the actual person who committed the crimes to walk away with a reduced sentence that reflects, albeit mistakenly, that they played a minor role in the commission of the crimes??

 

[D-Queued]

I will only accept a reduction in LA's sentence if he throws not only Hein under the bus but JB too - with emphasis on the latter given JB is so willing to fight on.

And Ferrari, and Wiesel, and Carmichael, and every other aider and abetter along with a detailed explanation on how they knowingly deceived SCA as well as how Lance leveraged his past experience of back-room deals when he took the Thrift Drug $1m.

Whatever he did to cheat prior to that while in Triathlon, or in his high school swim meet, can remain undisclosed.

Dave.

...thinking further about this little rant, might as well throw in that when it comes to specifics, Lance needs to come clean on Stephanie/Oakley as well as Wrek.

Dave.

 

[blackcat]

Whatever he did to cheat prior to that while in Triathlon, or in his high school swim meet, can remain undisclosed.

Dave.

but on the other hand, if he is willing to disclose about triathlon and high school swimming, i would be willing to throw in a donated solo dance at Yellow Rose

 

[FoxxyBrown1111]

Enough already. Clean(er) athletes either suffered engineered mediocrity or left. Probably the best case is Edwig Van Hooydonck. Whatever you do, don't let his story challenge your world view because that's exactly what it does.

An alternative is to make doping personal, again. Foxxy, your son/daughter is identified as being an extraordinary young athlete. Since you aren't judging dopers, then you'll start your kid doping as soon as possible, certainly as a teenager. What's the first doping protocol? When do you let her/him do their own injections? Where do you source the Testosterone patches? I'm not going to judge you and you don't judge dopers, so please tell us what's first.

This it the consequence of a permissive doping environment and exactly what was happening in cycling. Wonderboy outed Carmichael as Carmichael doping teenagers at USA Cycling.

Don't back down now, tell us what the imagined doping protocols for your child will be.

Agree, of course. But what what has that to do with what i said?
I waited 10 yrs that LA is uncovered, didn´t really believe it was ever to happen... but now he´s finished. Let him have a chance to compete clean in triathlon. If he won´t do it clean, he´ll end up like Ben Johnson anyway.

 

[Fatclimber]

...

Imagine a group of bank robbers who steal $10,000 each, and after they get caught, they have to go to jail for six months and pay a $1000 fine. The ringleader steals $1 million, and has to pay a $1 million fine, and has been in jail for a year to date. Is that enough, or does he also have to stay in jail for the rest of his life?

...

Analogies are great but at times do not do justice to the real situation. Like this time. Let's just throw in another factor, the ringleader used a gun during the heist. Yes, that changes everything and, yes, he should still be in jail. Especially if during the entire legal process he claims his innocence and refuses to cooperate with authorities.

Once the process has run it's course and he realized that he could be out of jail and hangin with his bros it's a little too late to change his mind and try and change the outcome.

**** lance. He's a pathetic doping **** along with most he rode with and most associated with the team as well as most in the entire sport. What else can he tell me?

 

[MarkvW]

What you are arguing for is like a mob boss who has been found guilty of conspiracy to commit murder, drug trafficking etc. and who is just as culpable as the actual person who committed the crimes to walk away with a reduced sentence that reflects, albeit mistakenly, that they played a minor role in the commission of the crimes??

This is doping for bike races. That's really not anything at all like murder.

And Lance WILL be forgiven, because the myth of Rise--Fall--Redemption MUST be fulfilled. You can rage against it all you want, but it is inevitably going to happen. As sure as Lance's confession on Oprah, it's going to happen.

The media demands (and it will have) a Lance-Redemption story. It cannot be denied. Everything outside the momentary reality of any sport is just rehashed mythology--and the mythology of redemption is too potent and irresistible to (lazy) sportswriters.