Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[TexPat]

Well, fine. But if you take soft power on board then media and mediatization (especially during those years) has to come with it.

So the argument is that the USADA only reinforced those conditions. Albeit in a more sober "austere" set of times.

As to your first, none of the longtime posters (anti Armstrong or otherwise) were repeating, rehearsing or duplicating those types of moral statements.

You know that absolution of the past is a modern invention and not realistic.

Truth and Reconciliation won't work if that's what you mean. You can't talk nice to the rats and get them to leave. More powerful measures are required.

 

[aphronesis]

No, it won't go away, but a functional society should be one that seeks to correct problems.
Sport is a cultural reflection, as such the rules that govern should be adhered to, and corrections made where mandated. Seems pretty obvious.
We could allow all sports to be like WWF or cockfighting, but that would not go well, now would it? Why? Because most people believe that rules should be followed as they reflect society's principles.

Here's the nub of where we disagree: that sport is a cultural reflection is an idealism from the classical period at best. Sport is nothing more than a structural (superstructural for the unreconstructed laggards) component of the current world order. A media driven job. And it promotes that. For good and bad. In its ambiguity and slightly unreachable aspects.

Therefore to treat it as that ideal and speak about it in those terms is only to reinforce and intensify (if not banalize--mostly these days) anything it does wrong. You of many people should know this.

Uh, huh. And which rules of society do most people follow? Those written or unwritten? A mixture of both? Was it anthropology you were dealing in? Anthro- and sociology these days would say the latter. For good and bad.

 

[rhubroma]

Yeah, of course, but what I would ask you--as a displaced academic--and ongoing intellectual is: where in the US did that not go on during that period on a massive basis? As intensified? No. Because of the nature of the endeavor.

But that doesn't mean it should be held up to such extreme standards without larger contextual revisions. Where are those things not going on now? Did the USADA's actions change that? No. Oops, sponsorship dollars lost. The sponsors are all above board of course.

Let's be clear: I don't, and have never cared about LA--probably having known about him as a teen cyclist for at least as long as you (and, as german descended--not caring)--but I don't think that making him the object of all that blame will eradicate the social conditions that brought him up. Mostly the opposite. And will only mutate them.

This is where I think many wouldn't agree with you: he's not being made the object of all the blame. This is his own narrative. I though you wouldn't be hoodwinked by this, but evidently I was wrong.

At any rate banning LA from competition didn't come with the promise of cleaning up the sport, so USADA hasn't fallen short in intention to change that. The agency just had the evidence to expose and convict a ring and its leader (not the only one of course), which is the driving imperative behind its federal mandate and purpose. The sponsors are of course not above board, though have you got any ideas as to how on earth in this present capitalist culture they could ever be held liable for the misdeeds of the stars their money corrupts? Good luck with that one.

 

[aphronesis]

This is where I think many wouldn't agree with you: he's not being made the object of all the blame. This is his own narrative. I though you wouldn't be hoodwinked by this, but evidently I was wrong.

At any rate banning LA from competition didn't come with the promise of cleaning up the sport, so USADA hasn't fallen short in intention to change that. The agency just had the evidence to expose and convict a ring and its leader (not the only one of course), which is the driving imperative behind its federal mandate and purpose. The sponsors are of course not above board, though have you got any ideas as to how on earth in this present capitalist culture they could ever be held liable for the misdeeds of the stars their money corrupts? Good luck with that one.

I'm not hoodwinked by this. On this thread and board though, that's the direction the vitriol goes. It's over. Done and dusted. And the lead up to it was massive.

Did he make the dam break. Maybe. But if so why are the devout keeping up the fight?

The issue is not the agency's exposure of the ring, but their (apparent) indifference to pursuing (many) further cases.

I'm arguing against exceptionalism and universality as they bear down on this matter. Nothing more.

 

[aphronesis]

Truth and Reconciliation won't work if that's what you mean. You can't talk nice to the rats and get them to leave. More powerful measures are required.

No, that's not what I mean. It would be nice if the people arguing with me didn't assume I was working from the playbook.

I'm talking about the conditions that allowed this to get so big and even when falling preoccupy people so much without ever getting to its core.

At least Dirtyworks--with whom I don't tend to agree--is explicit in seeing figures behind this, but even that isn't to the point. It's not about individuals.

 

[rhubroma]

Well, fine. But if you take soft power on board then media and mediatization (especially during those years) has to come with it.

So the argument is that the USADA only reinforced those conditions. Albeit in a more sober "austere" set of times.

As to your first, none of the longtime posters (anti Armstrong or otherwise) were repeating, rehearsing or duplicating those types of moral statements.

You know that absolution of the past is a modern invention and not realistic.

Of course you neglect that there was a very small minority within the media, who for years contested the mainstream and its power to multiply and forge shared perceptions.

I reckon USADA was able to alter the balance of power finally in their favor, which ultimately forced the mainstream media to re-conform and reorient mass impression.

Absolution of the past isn't realistic, however the justice system works upon a premise of purging systems of toxic elements, however futile this may ultimately be in achieving purification. I think, though, the justice system already takes this into account as part of the game.

 

[aphronesis]

Of course you neglect that there was a very small minority within the media, who for years contested the mainstream and its power to multiply and forge shared perceptions.

I reckon USADA was able to alter the balance of power finally in their favor, which ultimately forced the mainstream media to re-conform and reorient mass impression.

Absolution of the past isn't realistic, however the justice system works upon a premise of purging systems of toxic elements, however futile this may ultimately be in achieving purification. I think, though, the justice system already takes this into account as part of the game.

Well, I don't neglect that. I thought it was common knowledge. That said, there's another distinction to be made between media and media voices and even media figures.

The justice system does what it can, but even it too is subject to the vagaries of material and "common" culture.

 

[rhubroma]

I'm not hoodwinked by this. On this thread and board though, that's the direction the vitriol goes. It's over. Done and dusted. And the lead up to it was massive.

Did he make the dam break. Maybe. But if so why are the devout keeping up the fight?

The issue is not the agency's exposure of the ring, but their (apparent) indifference to pursuing (many) further cases.

I'm arguing against exceptionalism and universality as they bear down on this matter. Nothing more.

Well now the ball seems to be in Armstrong's court. If he has things to tell, then perhaps further cases will be opened. On the other hand, I do see your point inferring to certain cases that may never be pursued no matter what. After all anti-doping only exists where there is an environment for it to thrive.

Pazienza. Didn't someone once say that absolute justice isn't of this world?

 

[aphronesis]

Well now the ball seems to be in Armstrong's court. If he has things to tell, then perhaps further cases will be opened. On the other hand, I do see your point inferring to certain cases that may never be pursued no matter what. After all anti-doping only exists where there is an environment for it to thrive.

Pazienza. Didn't someone once say that absolute justice isn't of this world?

your man heidegger called it perdurance.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

It should be noted that EPO is a recovery drug. It's one of the reasons why modern tour riders can string together excellent days. Surprised you criticize another poster on a topic you don't quite understand.

It should be noted that EPO is MUCH more than a recovery drug...I don't think Riis was at 60 during the Tour just to recover better...it's kind of beneficial to climbing faster and stuff too......Surprised you criticize another poster on a topic you don't quite understand.

 

[aphronesis]

It should be noted that EPO is MUCH more than a recovery drug...I don't think Riis was at 60 during the Tour just to recover better...it's kind of beneficial to climbing faster and stuff too......Surprised you criticize another poster on a topic you don't quite understand.

I had wondered how you'd arrive.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I had wondered how you'd arrive.

Generally, I prefer something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zfx6RVLq50 but I was feeling a little humble today...

 

[aphronesis]

Generally, I prefer something like this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5Zfx6RVLq50 but I was feeling a little humble today...

you know, i just haven't listened to them since high school. a girl friend turned me on to the smiths. or, not really.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

you know, i just haven't listened to them since high school. a girl friend turned me on to the smiths. or, not really.

Funny, I have the same story with the smiths.

 

[StyrbjornSterki]

It should be noted that EPO is MUCH more than a recovery drug...I don't think Riis was at 60 during the Tour just to recover better...it's kind of beneficial to climbing faster and stuff too......Surprised you criticize another poster on a topic you don't quite understand.

I think most of us here are familiar with the study of Kenyan runners, which showed as much as 5% better performance while on EPO, tapering to 3% four weeks after stopping doping. But obviously the pharmaceutical companies did not create this stuff for the benefit of athletes who want to dope. Everyone who I personally have known who was prescribed EPO either was fighting respiratory disease or kidney failure.

For my money, it's a shame you can't buy vitamins that contain the stuff.

 

[frenchfry]

I cannot think of a better example of civic dysfunction than allowing a privileged class of people---professional athletes and management in this case---get away with earning millions by lying, cheating, bullying, tax evasion, blackmail, match fixing, etc.

But I sense that I may have just provided nourishment to something unworthy.

And thanks for the ear worm, Stingray. I have hated Journey since the 70's, and it's taken a long time to forget them.

So I take it you don't buy into Lancey-poo's self-attributed victim status.

Truth and Reconciliation won't work if that's what you mean. You can't talk nice to the rats and get them to leave. More powerful measures are required.

Exactly, and you certainly have the first hand experience to give this point of view credibility.

By the way, good to see you around.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

I think most of us here are familiar with the study of Kenyan runners, which showed as much as 5% better performance while on EPO, tapering to 3% four weeks after stopping doping. But obviously the pharmaceutical companies did not create this stuff for the benefit of athletes who want to dope. Everyone who I personally have known who was prescribed EPO either was fighting respiratory disease or kidney failure.

For my money, it's a shame you can't buy vitamins that contain the stuff.

I'm unconvinced the pharmaceutical companies are opposed to the illegal usage of their drugs for performance enhancement.

 

[aphronesis]

Funny, I have the same story with the smiths.

right, well if we're going that route, laibach was much better anyway. but there were far more subtle things available.

 

[aphronesis]

I'm unconvinced the pharmaceutical companies are opposed to the illegal usage of their drugs for performance enhancement.

no chance. they mean what they say. ever been to the office parks?

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

I'm unconvinced the pharmaceutical companies are opposed to the illegal usage of their drugs for performance enhancement.

 

[Oldman]

I'm unconvinced the pharmaceutical companies are opposed to the illegal usage of their drugs for performance enhancement.

They are opposed to black market knock offs from Montenegro, China, etc that don't pay royalties. They lose twice on that sort of internet purchase.

 

[MarkvW]

Truth and Reconciliation won't work if that's what you mean. You can't talk nice to the rats and get them to leave. More powerful measures are required.

I think a fair synonym for "Truth and Reconciliation" is "Catch and Release."

 

[ChewbaccaD]

right, well if we're going that route, laibach was much better anyway. but there were far more subtle things available.

I went more toward the butthole surfers jesus lizard side of things. I just "liked" the smiths because I liked getting laid...sorry to be so crass.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

They are opposed to black market knock offs from Montenegro, China, etc that don't pay royalties. They lose twice on that sort of internet purchase.

But they shipped the legal stuff in bulk to Mexican "pharmacies" just over the border. I remember some Cat 2's I knew in the 90's taking a road trip Juarez just prior to going to Italy to race...funny thing, they got CRUSHED in Italy anyway...they weren't taking it for "recovery" either...

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Thanks for bringing us back on topic