Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[RownhamHill]

I think the point is that in 1998, no-one knew how successful Lance was going to be. The "deals" at that point weren't worth very much.

The dominant post-Festina rider could have been one of many "likely lads", as predicting senior, top-level success from junior or early career promise is one of the hardest things to do in sport. Even after the 1998 Vuelta, very few pundits were tipping Lance for anything in the 1999 Tour.

So it's unlikely that such a canny operator as Hein would have bet everything on Lance. It seems more likely that he would have diversified and invested in several riders, knowing that most of them were doomed to be pack-fodder.

Remember Don King after the Rumble in the Jungle? "I arrived with the champ and I left with the champ". You need to keep your options open.

It's entirely possible that once Lance started winning, Hein did concentrate solely on Lance.

Not sure that really follows though does it? Just in the abstract, if you pick say five 'likely lads', the best case scenario is that you have one likely winner, and four disappointed losers - all of whom are ticking time bombs to reveal your potential corruption, especially if they find out you've backed another horse (we'll call them 'Landis's' for arguments sake). The more Landis's the more loose ends, and the more potential 'revenge' self-sacrifices. And if you're backing everybody on the basic idea of playing the numbers, then why bother? Why not just not back anyone, and someone will still win, but the other four won't immediately be potential enemies of yours?

And in the more particular, how many of those likely lads in the post-Festina world both have leverage over you in the form of missed diagnosis of Cancer (and hence direct evidence of your corrupt approach of basically ignoring dope testing), and also have strong incentives over you in the shape of their rich backers inviting you into their business deals (as Race Radio is suggesting). As well as more generally the opportunity for you to move the sport into an under-developed but rich TV market? And what's more, if it doesn't work out for the rider, well what's the risk - if you've been actively helping him, and him alone, what's the incentive for him to squeal (that guy was cheating to help me win, and I still lost. . .)

So really, I'm not sure I buy that someone would play the odds and corruptly help lots of riders, as I can't possibly see what the payback would be for the administrator.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Livingston can presumably only comment on Ulrich post-EPO testing, though as he joined Telecom in 2000 or 2001.

I'd be gobsmacked if the 1996 and 1997 versions of Ullrich weren't considerably different to the Ullrich whilst Livingston was a team-mate.

Yes, but during much if not all of the Lance era his main rival was not getting the benefit of having Verbruggen on speed dial.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Can we get our stories straight? Was Verbruggen doing favors that he did not do for anyone else because Armstrong was diagnosed with cancer? Or was he doing special favors because he was involved in a billion dollar deal with Armstrong? For a billion dollar wheeler dealer, those $25K and $100K bribes look very small, especially when they have to be shared with a several others in the UCI to keep them quiet.

I am not Race Radio, nice try.
My story is straight. So is RRs, but I prefer mine. Hein answered LAs call because you don't ignore someone who has something over you.

Did Hein do anything about LAs complaint?! Who knows, I get the feeling Hein would go "this crazy kid and his portable phone".
The money is separate and involves, well money. Weisel, LA and Hein, all are interested in coin and have zero problems how. It was only a matter of time before they tested each other and realized they had a lot in common.

 

[Scott SoCal]

Can we get our stories straight? Was Verbruggen doing favors that he did not do for anyone else because Armstrong was diagnosed with cancer? Or was he doing special favors because he was involved in a billion dollar deal with Armstrong? For a billion dollar wheeler dealer, those $25K and $100K bribes look very small, especially when they have to be shared with a several others in the UCI to keep them quiet.

There's no reason why the answer isn't "both."

Didn't they later try and buy the TdF from ASO? I can't even imagine what kind of a ****show that would have turned in to.

 

[Wallace and Gromit]

Yes, but during much if not all of the Lance era his main rival was not getting the benefit of having Verbruggen on speed dial.

True, but my point was about Ullrich heamatacrit levels. He might only have been at 42 post 2000 as there was EPO testing by then and he would have to be quite restrained to guarantee not getting caught if he didn't have Lance's advantages.

In 1996 and 1997, as long as you could dodge the 50% test - very easy by all accounts - and didn't kill yourself then you could shoot up as much EPO as you wanted to. If memory serves, Ullrich was sub 38 minutes up the Alpe in 1997 yet never broke 40 minutes thereafter so Lord only knows what his Hct was in 1996 and 1997.

If Ullrich hadn't partied his way out of contention in 1999 and Pantani hadn't f---ed up his 50% test then history could have been very different. Ullrich was hyped up to be the dominant rider post Big Mig. If he'd delivered in 1999 then there would have been powerful forces jumping on his bandwagon, which might have been sufficient to derail the Lance jugganaut, particularly if Pantani had beaten him as well. A third place for Lance in the 1999 Tour would have been a nice heart-warming story, but not enough to trigger what ultimately happened, one might think.

 

[BroDeal]

Good question.....do you have an answer?

What other riders had Hein phone number and talked to him daily? Och is the Godfather of lance's kid and he managed Hein's cash.....did any other riders have this access?

Sorry. Not buying it. Verbruggen cannot be the evil mastermind who is totally corrupt, threatens people by saying that he can make anyone positive, and yet only helped Armstrong [except for that one time he bent the rules for Luc Leblanc but that doesn't count for some reason].

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Sorry. Not buying it. Verbruggen cannot be the evil mastermind who is totally corrupt, threatens people by saying that he can make anyone positive, and yet only helped Armstrong [except for that one time he bent the rules for Luc Leblanc but that doesn't count for some reason].

I am glad you are not buying it unless you want a lot of straw.

No-one says HV is a mastermind. He was an old business man in a position of power.

It wasnt Leblanc - it was Brochard, and no money changed hands.
This is pretty simple - the UCI at that time did not care about doping, so had a pretty lax system in place. But because of this, if you were caught you were on your own. Taking backdated TUEs was easy.
There is only rider we know who paid Verbruggen/UCI.

 

[BroDeal]

It wasnt Leblanc - it was Brochard, and no money changed hands.
This is pretty simple - the UCI at that time did not care about doping, so had a pretty lax system in place. But because of this, if you were caught you were on your own. Taking backdated TUEs was easy.
There is only rider we know who paid Verbruggen/UCI.

It does not sound like Verbruggen had such a great tight relationship with Armstrong if he was charging money for what he was giving Brochard for free.

 

[frenchfry]

I am glad you are not buying it unless you want a lot of straw.

No-one says HV is a mastermind. He was an old business man in a position of power.

It wasnt Leblanc - it was Brochard, and no money changed hands.
This is pretty simple - the UCI at that time did not care about doping, so had a pretty lax system in place. But because of this, if you were caught you were on your own. Taking backdated TUEs was easy.
There is only rider we know who paid Verbruggen/UCI.

I'm not taking sides, but how can you be sure that Verdruggen didn't take a kickback for letting Brochard's positive slide?

I do think it is probable that Armstrong and Verdruggen had a special relationship, however I think it is likely that Verdruggen would accept cash from any givers.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

It does not sound like Verbruggen had such a great tight relationship with Armstrong if he was charging money for what he was giving Brochard for free.

Maybe Hein liked Laurents long hair? This indeed could be a theory and if you want to go with it, its all yours.

For me, their relationship was platonic and one of mutual trust, to keep secrets and respect of money.
I doubt they swapped cards or flowers today.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I'm not taking sides, but how can you be sure that Verdruggen didn't take a kickback for letting Brochard's positive slide?

I do think it is probable that Armstrong and Verdruggen had a special relationship, however I think it is likely that Verdruggen would accept cash from any givers.

Oh, I totally agree.
It is not like Hein would say, "sorry Laurent, my ethics will not allow me to deal in the french Franc".

But, there is only one person we do know - as well as that all LAs peers got busted. So, if they paid, they got shafted.
And - it should be remembered that from the info available, LA did not pay for the backdated TUE in 99. His first payment that we know about wasn't until 2002.

 

[Benotti69]

Oh, I totally agree.
It is not like Hein would say, "sorry Laurent, my ethics will not allow me to deal in the french Franc".

But, there is only one person we do know - as well as that all LAs peers got busted. So, if they paid, they got shafted.
And - it should be remembered that from the info available, LA did not pay for the backdated TUE in 99. His first payment that we know about wasn't until 2002.

that is presumptious from such a 'pedantic, need a link to prove it'.

Hein had accounts in USA with Weisel so why would a few $$$s not have found its way in to it in '99 or '00? Heck LA might not have known as Stapleton and Weisel could have sorted that without telling LA.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

that is presumptious from such a 'pedantic, need a link to prove it'.

Hein had accounts in USA with Weisel so why would a few $$$s not have found its way in to it in '99 or '00? Heck LA might not have known as Stapleton and Weisel could have sorted that without telling LA.

One of the reasons I hold this view Benotti is because I indeed like links and look at the supporting evidence.
It is far from clearcut - and if you have something to actually link, then show it.

Here is mine:

From 2001 to 2004, Thomas Weisel Partners managed some of the personal assets for Hein Verbruggen, then head of the Union Cycliste Internationale, cycling's governing body, said the broker, Jim Ochowicz, in an interview.

 

[Race Radio]

It does not sound like Verbruggen had such a great tight relationship with Armstrong if he was charging money for what he was giving Brochard for free.

Hein and Brochard tried to buy the Tour together? Brochard's best friend was Hein's money manger? How many EPO tests of Brochard did Hein cover up? Did Hein spend $125,000 on a fake "Independent" report to clear Brochard? Did Brochard ever call Hein and ask him to target his rivals?

 

[MarkvW]

I don't think that matters, nor that USADA gives a flying patoot if Hein's worked w/others. From the jump, Hein's lied time and time again about his involvement with Wonderboy, emphatically stating over and over that he's done nothing wrong, he's never seen Wonderboy dope, never taken a bribe(etc), everyone pretty much knows this. He just refuses to come to grips with the fact that others know. USADA/UCI/Wonderboy/someone will eventually drop the hammer down on ol' Heiny, bet on it.

Hein is still on the UCI Management Committee. His extremely soiled boy, McQuaid, came very close to defeating Cookson. Cookson, about as 'old boy' as they come, was Disgusting Pat McQuaid's only challenger. Lance has subzero credibility and USADA's in no position to investigate Verbruggen. No hammers are dropping on Heinie....

And "eventually" sounds pretty ridiculous when applied to a man in his seventies!

I remain confident that the filthy cesspool remains fundamentally unchanged.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Hey, you're right. That is a simple solution. Makes me wonder why anyone believing that would bother with anything complex what so ever. Law school say?

Makes me wonder why someone with superior intelligence would need to come here to confirm how intelligent they think they are. It isn't because they aren't intelligent enough.

Plus, it doesn't involve any "belief" to know that not clicking on a link will not expose you to the contents of that link. That's just factual information. Lawyers may not be that smart, but any attorney worth his salt will know the difference between "facts" and "belief."

 

[MarkvW]

Hein appears to be one of the most networked guys in pro cycling. His relationship with Lance was one among many. That's why Hein is still a power in pro cycling.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

Hein is still on the UCI Management Committee. His extremely soiled boy, McQuaid, came very close to defeating Cookson. Cookson, about as 'old boy' as they come, was Disgusting Pat McQuaid's only challenger. Lance has subzero credibility and USADA's in no position to investigate Verbruggen. No hammers are dropping on Heinie....

And "eventually" sounds pretty ridiculous when applied to a man in his seventies!

I remain confident that the filthy cesspool remains fundamentally unchanged.

Phew - I would be worried if you thought things had changed.

Hein is not on the Management Committee, he is an Honorary Member of the UCI, this is so he can still be on the IOC. And even then he is no longer involved, with most of his key people like McQ and Verbiest, Srebel gone too.

And Cookson was a member of the Management Committee since 2009. Not an old boy - and indeed a bit of a mistake by PMcQ.

 

[BroDeal]

Hein and Brochard tried to buy the Tour together? Brochard's best friend was Hein's money manger? How many EPO tests of Brochard did Hein cover up? Did Hein spend $125,000 on a fake "Independent" report to clear Brochard? Did Brochard ever call Hein and ask him to target his rivals?

Verbruggen does not sound like much of a friend. He let Brochard off gratis but his good buddy and business partner was charged a fee when having Armstrong test positive would disrupt the business plans of the two. Maybe Armstrong should ask for a refund. Hopefully he kept the receipts.

 

[Benotti69]

One of the reasons I hold this view Benotti is because I indeed like links and look at the supporting evidence.
It is far from clearcut - and if you have something to actually link, then show it.

Here is mine:

The only reason we knew about money changing hands is because a certain sociopathic Texan boasted about it. My guess is others knew not to blow that trumpet.

 

[Benotti69]

And Cookson was a member of the Management Committee since 2009. Not an old boy - and indeed a bit of a mistake by PMcQ.

Cookson is an 'old boy' in the world of cycling.

 

[aphronesis]

Makes me wonder why someone with superior intelligence would need to come here to confirm how intelligent they think they are. It isn't because they aren't intelligent enough.

Plus, it doesn't involve any "belief" to know that not clicking on a link will not expose you to the contents of that link. That's just factual information. Lawyers may not be that smart, but any attorney worth his salt will know the difference between "facts" and "belief."

Sociological exercise. Ocassionally yields other distinctions and confirmations than lawyers worth their salt.

At the same time, why would someone with superior debating skills pop in to take down chumps? Easy day of target practice?

 

[Race Radio]

Verbruggen does not sound like much of a friend. He let Brochard off gratis but his good buddy and business partner was charged a fee when having Armstrong test positive would disrupt the business plans of the two. Maybe Armstrong should ask for a refund. Hopefully he kept the receipts.

Really? How much did Lance pay for his backdated TUE? How much did Brochard pay for his?

Was Hein involved in Brochard's case? Voet said he was but was sued by UCI.

Willie lost the case and the appeal

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-wins-legal-battle-against-voet

 

[Benotti69]

Really? How much did Lance pay for his backdated TUE? How much did Brochard pay for his?

Was Hein involved in Brochard's case? Voet said he was but was sued by UCI.

Willie lost the case and the appeal

http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/uci-wins-legal-battle-against-voet

To be fair, Voet couldn't prove his allegation. But that doesn't mean justice was done. Look at the Fed Investigation dropped in USA against all that we know about Armstrong!

UCI and Verbruggen are based in Switzerland where getting access to banking details are difficult.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

The only reason we knew about money changing hands is because a certain sociopathic Texan boasted about it. My guess is others knew not to blow that trumpet.

I understand.
However, the reason I asked you if you had anything to back up your view is because I coundnt give a **** about what you guess.

Cookson is an 'old boy' in the world of cycling.

Ya, he is as are most people who have had a licence in the sport.