Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[Digger]

"I guess what is of concern, and I’m repeating what I have said before, is that the entire picture is not reassuring. We know that there are isolated cases of guys in the middle of the pack are doping still. Is it conceivable that the guys in the middle are doping but the guys at the front are not? Are there “lone wolf” dopers, or are these cases symptoms of a bigger problem? I’m leaning to the latter."
There’s a PR component to the sport’s current situation that I distrust much more than the actual scientific/doping aspect."

The power outputs they’re achieving are high enough that we can say with certainty that they’d have been competitive in the period prior to the biological passport, post-EPO testing (2002 onwards).

From Ross Tucker...


And also, let's set aside the Frankie piece from this week, what about him defending froome last year? Who in their right mind thinks froome could be clean...

 

[Race Radio]

That's all good and well, Betsy, but I honestly don't see any signs of the sport changing for the better in the last ~3 years or so. Quite the contrary. Since 2011 or thereabouts, I get the feeling much of whatever previous progress had taken place has been undone.

Good point. It is a confusing time.

On a macro level many elements of the sport are better. I do not hear as many stories of NeoPros being pressured to dope by their teams. Yeah, some may babble about what Andy Schleck did almost a decade ago but today I would not expect him to get the same pressure.

Teams have backed away from having programs because of the risk. Even Levi had to hassle and pressure Johan for months before he would authorize a team program in 2007. The Armstrong case, and others, showed that riders will flip. The Omerta can be broken. Team mangers, doctors, and DS' are scared of the risk. While Froome, Horner, Quintana, have some crazy numbers we don't see the large number of crazy performances we did 10 years ago

But enough of the good news. Doping has been forced underground in the Pro portion of the sport and has flooded the amateur portion. The stories I hear these days are very disturbing. Experimental drugs, Chinese and Russian labs making anything you want, Ricco's home transfusions. Ugh. The uneven enforcement is also a huge challenge. It is hard to ignore that some countries have a much bigger problem then others.

While overall speeds are down we still have Froome on the Madone, Horner and the Angrilu, and Quintana on the Semnoz. Not normal......oh, and Rebellin won one of my favorite races today

Ultimately Frankie is giving his opinion. One he developed via 12 years as a Pro, covering multiple Tours as Media, and managing a Pro team. While I may not agree with 100% of what he says I value it more then a handful of folks on the internet swinging handbags at windmills

 

[the sceptic]

From Ross Tucker...


And also, let's set aside the Frankie piece from this week, what about him defending froome last year? Who in their right mind thinks froome could be clean...

sounds like Ross Tucker is smearing Frankie.

 

[Race Radio]

And also, let's set aside the Frankie piece from this week, what about him defending froome last year? Who in their right mind thinks froome could be clean...

You need to stop twisting what he said, it makes you look silly.

 

[Digger]

You need to stop twisting what he said, it makes you look silly.

Yes because even kimmage wasn't getting exasperated.

Thanks for proving my point yet again about obfuscating muddying the waters.

 

[Digger]

You need to stop twisting what he said, it makes you look silly.

Yes. Ross, frei, joerg, flood, ammat...all wrong.

Let's listen to race who calls out people for their obsession and desire to argue when he has been on on a jihad against lance for over a decade.

 

[Digger]

sounds like Ross Tucker is smearing Frankie.

I find it funny to see people say we are taking lines here and there to support our position when this is precisely what they are doing.

 

[the sceptic]

Yes because even kimmage wasn't getting exasperated.

Thanks for proving my point yet again about obfuscating muddying the waters.

Yes that was funny. I mean, here we have the Dawg, and its basically the sestriere moment, and even so Frankie stands there and pretends he isnt even the slightest bit suspicious about what happened.

 

[Race Radio]

Yes because even kimmage wasn't getting exasperated.

Thanks for proving my point yet again about obfuscating muddying the waters.

No, Frankie was adding context to the discussion. He talked about the race situation and suggesting we do not jump to conclusions. Of course that makes him a target......He should be screaming and ranting, swinging his handbag at windmills!

Frankie has had very similar discussions on the other side of topic. He urges caution to journalists who are willing to put their hand in the fire for Froome. Should we also twist what he says and smear him for that as well?

 

[Digger]

No, Frankie was adding context to the discussion. He talked about the race situation and suggesting we do not jump to conclusions. Of course that makes him a target......He should be screaming and ranting, swinging his handbag at windmills!

Frankie has had very similar discussions on the other side of topic. He urges caution to journalists who are willing to put their hand in the fire for Froome. Should we also twist what he says and smear him for that as well?

Let's apply the same criteria to lance as everyone else. Something you fail to do and you should be ashamed of yourself for your hypocrisy. Ten year jihad against lance....

He defended froome. Stop obfuscating....I know that's your thing though. Was the same with Greg. And jv.

By the way you still think that Horner is the most talented American since Greg? Just so we are being fair to lance and floyd here.

 

[Digger]

Yes that was funny. I mean, here we have the Dawg, and its basically the sestriere moment, and even so Frankie stands there and pretends he isnt even the slightest bit suspicious about what happened.

This....and kimmage, who likes Frankie, was clearly exasperated looking and listening.

 

[Race Radio]

Let's apply the same criteria to lance as everyone else. Something you fail to do and you should be ashamed of yourself for your hypocrisy. Ten year jihad against lance....

He defended froome. Stop obfuscating....I know that's your thing though. Was the same with Greg. And jv.

By the way you still think that Horner is the most talented American since Greg? Just so we are being fair to lance and floyd here.

Yeah, yeah, we get it. We are all evil hypocrites.....Zzzzzzzz

 

[kingjr]

This....and kimmage, who likes Frankie, was clearly exasperated looking and listening.

Kimmage is always exasperated. He also thought Kohl might be clean in 2008. Which means his judgment is worth **** all, because it was obvious at the time that he wasn't.
His strong point is asking questions and really digging into something without letting go.

 

[Granville57]

Here is Frankie defending froome - after AX3 Domaines...after he had pulverised everyone and pumped out 6.25w/kg.

http://www.independent.ie/sport/kimmage/day-12-of-paul-kimmages-tour-de-france-diary-29401411.html

Is that full story behind a paywall or something?

I can't access anything beyond the headline for that article (or is it a video?).

The other stories on that page seem to have active links embedded, but not the Kimmage Day 12 Diary. I expected the "Read More" to be an active link, but no such luck.

Am I missing something?

 

[the sceptic]

Is that full story behind a paywall or something?

I can't access anything beyond the headline for that article (or is it a video?).

The other stories on that page seem to have active links embedded, but not the Kimmage Day 12 Diary. I expected the "Read More" to be an active link, but no such luck.

Am I missing something?

noscript was hiding the video for me.

 

[Granville57]

noscript was hiding the video for me.

Seems to have been a Safari issue. Works just fine with Chrome.

 

[Race Radio]

Kimmage is always exasperated. He also thought Kohl might be clean in 2008. Which means his judgment is worth **** all, because it was obvious at the time that he wasn't.

He did? Burn him at the stake! Evil Hypocrite!

 

[thehog]

Kimmage is always exasperated. He also thought Kohl might be clean in 2008. Which means his judgment is worth **** all, because it was obvious at the time that he wasn't.
His strong point is asking questions and really digging into something without letting go.

Well no. Clearly you're making this up with a revisionists eye... Poor form to be honest.

Kohl looked clean as much as a doper. He was not obvious. He wasn't like Froome. Kohl was a "almost there" rider, never smashed a mountain to give a full on doper appearance. He was also a little ugly on the bike. No one picked him as the doper.

Kimmage didn't declare him clean, more so that it looked real.

It hurt even more on Wednesday during the shoot-out at Alpe d’Huez when we witnessed the scenes that had once made the race so special. Rewind the tape and the truth is in the pain; the mouths gaping for breath; the eyes rolling with tiredness; the exhausted portrait of the Austrian Bernard Kohl - second overall and King of the Mountains - as he collapsed after crossing the line. The moment of the race.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/more_sport/cycling/article4407072.ece

As soon as Kohl was popped, he admitted his mistake and that he was fooled. No shame in that. (David Walsh, take note).

PK: I got that completely wrong! I got that completely wrong.

AS: I know! Even the things you think bring you hope turn around and bite you in the ***.

PK: Absolutely. I got that completely wrong. I felt extremely foolish after it, but in my defense...David Millar, and this is a point he made to me, I had forgotten, over the last couple of years, was that there are good guys here, and they need your support as much as the bad guys, the dopers need your scorn. I'd forgotten about that, and he has a point. And the guys who are doing it clean they definitely need the support of everyone.

http://nyvelocity.com/content/interviews/2009/paul-kimmage

TOUR DE FRANCE 2008: STAGE 17 RESULTS
1. Carlos Sastre (Spa) CSC-Saxo Bank
2. Samuel Sanchez (Spa) Euskaltel-Euskadi at 2m 3secs
3. Andy Schleck (Lux) CSC-Saxo Bank at same time
4. Alejandro Valverde (Spa) Caisse d’Epargne at 2m 13secs
5. Frank Schleck (Lux) CSC-Saxo Bank at same time
6. Vladimir Efimkin (Rus) Ag2r at 2m 15secs
7. Cadel Evans (Aus) Silence-Lotto
8. Denis Menchov (Rus) Rabobank
9. Christian Vande Velde (USA) Garmin-Chipotle
10. Bernhard Kohl (Aut) Gerolsteiner all at same time.

31. Chris Froome (GB) Barloworld at 11m 41secs

 

[Race Radio]

I hope we don't have to hate Paul now, I like the guy.......but he thought dopers were clean, speeds were down, and there was less doping in the sport so he must be an evil hypocrite

Did I believe in Christian Vande Velde? ......

I believed in him because we sat down for two hours one night and he told me about his life. I believed in him because of Vaughters; I believed in him because of Lim; I believed him because of Reichlin and Steffen and Frischkorn and Pate. I believed in him because of Millar. And as an extension of that belief, I was forced to engage with the race.......

Vande Velde was my new barometer. Could a clean rider compete with the rocket-fuelled exploits of cheat.......

the truth is in the pain; the mouths gaping for breath; the eyes rolling with tiredness; the exhausted portrait of the Austrian Bernard Kohl - second overall and King of the Mountains - as he collapsed after crossing the line. The moment of the race.....

back in the press room, some of the muppets who had glorified the Robo-cop years were bemoaning the lack of “spectacle”. They had spent so much time with their heads up the arses of the cheats, they had forgotten:this is how it looks when it’s clean.

Now there’s a chance I have been completely suckered on this. There’s a chance the winner will prove to be a clever doper and that I’ll appear a fool. And that’s not a chance I’d have taken before I met Vaughters. But these past 27 days with his team have taught me a valuable lesson.

The list of people we are supposed to hate is getting too long......I don't care what you guys say, I still like Paul.

 

[thehog]

noscript was hiding the video for me.

"The numbers weren't out of whack"

and

"You can't throw up red flags because somebody won"

Deep.

Maybe he saw a different Ventoux stage?

 

[mewmewmew13]

Ummmm, yeah, nah.

Nice words but he doped part of group that decided to dope and did so without his martial partners knowledge. He procured his own dope and was ultimately uncovered when she saw him playing the part of Richie Porte.

When he did admit he said he had no knowledge of Armstrong's doping.

Honourable but let's not pretend it's anymore than it was.

Lets just keep things in perspective shall we?

Perspective..
is that like saying that all people who have run-ins with the law in their life are on the same level?
murderers vs shoplifters...all in the same group..they all did something..perspective

 

[mewmewmew13]

I hope we don't have to hate Paul now, I like the guy.......but he thought dopers were clean, speeds were down, and there was less doping in the sport so he must be an evil hypocrite




The list of people we are supposed to hate is getting too long......I don't care what you guys say, I still like Paul.

We are also supposed to hate you.

and I think I am labeled a "***king doping apologist"

long live the clinic and its infinite wisdom

 

[thehog]

Perspective..
is that like saying that all people who have run-ins with the law in their life are on the same level?
murderers vs shoplifters...all in the same group..they all did something..perspective

We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.

 

[mewmewmew13]

like I said before..I still love cycling..there are still riders I like..and I still hate doping to win--
glass half full

 

[mewmewmew13]

We can complain because rose bushes have thorns, or rejoice because thorn bushes have roses.

and I would compare Frankie to a rose bush and Lance to a thorn bush