Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

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Jan 20, 2010
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RobbieCanuck said:
No one cares about him. He is a footnote.

I will believe that when this thread dies, this forum stops talking about him, and when he stops generated more column inches and news articles written about him than any other current or previous rider. The guy can't even go to the beach or ride a fred fondo without this forum going into meltdown and journalists around the world writing about it.

People can't live with him, or without him.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Night Rider said:
I will believe that when this thread dies, this forum stops talking about him, and when he stops generated more column inches and news articles written about him than any other current or previous rider. The guy can't even go to the beach or ride a fred fondo without this forum going into meltdown and journalists around the world writing about it.

People can't live with him, or without him.

I could live without him. Plenty could. The guy wakes up in the morning working on reclaiming his "#1 in something" and **HE** commits a huge amount of energy to it. He's the source of quite a bit of the BS and drama published and it's all a calculated effort to be #1. Somehow.
 
Dec 27, 2012
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DirtyWorks said:
I could live without him. Plenty could. The guy wakes up in the morning working on reclaiming his "#1 in something" and **HE** commits a huge amount of energy to it. He's the source of quite a bit of the BS and drama published and it's all a calculated effort to be #1. Somehow.

There's a fair chance, having paid what market forces have exacted upon him, that Lance will retain an adeqaute amount of money, an adequate following of friends and followers and an adequate degree of dignity, once this all has shaken out. That a fan should expect that Lance will be back out on the tri circuit in due course ... is unrealistic, as is the expectation that Lance will become less relevant than anyone posting on this thread, forum, for that matter ... yes, including you know who.
 
Jul 21, 2012
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Night Rider said:
I will believe that when this thread dies, this forum stops talking about him, and when he stops generated more column inches and news articles written about him than any other current or previous rider. The guy can't even go to the beach or ride a fred fondo without this forum going into meltdown and journalists around the world writing about it.

People can't live with him, or without him.

This thread will never die. In 50 years, RR will use his special sources to dig up the latest news about Lance at the retirement home. Then everyone will agree that Lance is still the master of all evil and pat each other on the back. All the while maintaining that Lance is of course insignificant and that no one cares about him anymore.

Im sure the Tygart victory tour will be going too. :rolleyes:
 
May 26, 2010
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Race Radio said:
There is. For the Qui Tam case it is key that the idea that "Everyone was doing it" is spread far and wide. After the CIRC report is issued there will be months of media on it. Perfect timing

Which Cookson must be fully aware off, so if Cookson was anti doping he would withhold the CIRC report till after the Qui Tam case.

But if CIRC comes out with a report that says 'everyone' was doing it, then Cookson has another problem because most of those everyone's are still in the sport!
 
May 26, 2010
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Alpe73 said:
There's a fair chance, having paid what market forces have exacted upon him, that Lance will retain an adeqaute amount of money, an adequate following of friends and followers and an adequate degree of dignity, once this all has shaken out. That a fan should expect that Lance will be back out on the tri circuit in due course ... is unrealistic, as is the expectation that Lance will become less relevant than anyone posting on this thread, forum, for that matter ... yes, including you know who.

You appear to still worship at the altar of the cancer jesus........
 
Feb 10, 2010
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Ancient History

Here are some links to corroborate some fuzzy-to-me dates for Wonderboy.

1989: Wonderboy already in Carmichael's doping squad.
http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/19...1_national-triathlon-bike-race-bud-light-usts

1990 we know Comical was doping Strock and Kaiter. http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dope-and-glory-10-04-2001/

So, without a doubt, Comical was doping the kids, including Wonderboy.

I also stumbled on this document possibly from February 1991 http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/C118.pdf Apparently shows Wonderboy's scores from a training camp? I don't know how to read it with full comprehension.

An ancient WSJ article written by Abt. http://www.nytimes.com/1992/09/16/sports/16iht-bike_0.html

By Tuesday, three days before the 10-day race ends in Brittany, Armstrong ranked 31st, about five minutes behind. He did not yet have a stage victory.

Nevertheless, said his Motorola coach, Jim Ochowicz, "Lance is riding heads up and we're very pleased.


From 31st at l'Avenir under doper Och to grand tour champion. Seems legit.
 
Jul 27, 2010
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DirtyWorks said:
I also stumbled on this document possibly from February 1991 http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/C118.pdf Apparently shows Wonderboy's scores from a training camp? I don't know how to read it with full comprehension.

That is a really interesting document. LA’s highest measured V02 max was 80, and his lactate threshold 60. But that was late season, and Coyle claimed a value of 83, and since in this document they thought he could increase his lactate threshold 5-10%, so I’ll give him the 83 with an 80% threshold. His efficiency according to Coyle increased to about 23% after cancer, so we have all the data we need to estimate his FTP. It comes out to about 5.25 watts/kg. To put that in perspective, that is very roughly 45 minutes up ADH. And even that is generous, as in the document they record his watts at threshold as a maximum of 350, which is only about 4.50 watts/kg at 78 kg, his recorded weight in 1995. That lower value would result from his alleged lower efficiency at that time.

A real surprise is that his HT was measured at 46.7% once and at 48.8 % another time. Yet according to passport data I've seen, his natural HT is in the low 40s, and I believe RR has even claimed it's below 40. If that discrepancy is real, one would have to assume he was on EPO back in the early 90s, and even during the offseason (December). Moreover, if he could put out only 5.25 watts/kg with a HT in the upper 40s (assuming a higher efficiency than implied in the data in this document), to get to the watts he later put out in the Tours, he would have to get his HT well over 50, or be on some other oxygen vector as has been speculated. Or perhaps lose some weight with no loss of power, a la Froome.

I also found it interesting that his measured height was almost 2 cm more in 1991 than in 1995. I wouldn't expect such a large difference of variation for a parameter that is supposed to be constant.

Finally, I find it interesting that back then in the early 90s we have all the data we would expect trainers would obtain from a rider to gauge his potential. Yet twenty years later, Sky apparently has never done a V02max test on Froome, let alone threshold or other parameters measured multiple times on Armstrong. When I and others have raised this issue, we get BS answers such as, there is more to potential than measurable physiological parameters, or it would be too disruptive of training to make such measurements.
 
Sep 25, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
I also stumbled on this document possibly from February 1991 http://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/C118.pdf
a treasure trove of data both on armstrong and the us national team btwn '91 and '95 (i'm going to pin it up).

indeed for anyone still interested in sorting out the armstrong natural vs a doped one, it is an invaluable prime source. as i said before,THAT question is the only subject left that still excites me about the despicable human being who's apparently possessed an elite athletic body

but was he a world beater ?

i scanned the 54 pages real fast. in addition to some comments by m. index (which seem sound imo), i'd make the following very tentatively:

-armstrong's physical.
his height and weight controversy from the coyle study are well known. in the document, he was measured at 180 cm/ 80 kg in '91 and at 178 cm/ 77 kg in '95. the little fact that was largely unknown or ignored is that his % body fat in '91 was 6.5% and 4.2% in '95. meaning, he was at the absolute healthy limit when weighing 78 kg, thus putting a question mark to his ability to drop kgs much further as we are told by his fans. i do not exclude musculature reduction starting with his '99 streak, but we need his % body fat to properly evaluate the touted weight reduction contribution to w/kg increase without doping

armstrong's blood chemistry
as already noted, having the hg above 16 and hct almost 49% as long ago as '91 is quite suspicious when his base level was said to be low 40s. additionally, and this was never mentioned before as far as i can deduce, his iron chemistry (not just the iron level but ferritin, tibc etc) support the notion that he took epo in the early 90's. to remind, in those days the standard procedure required massive iron supplements (or injections) along with epo injections. this would cause either an overshot in iron levels or a change in iron metabolism. what i saw is the change bordering on the limit values consistent with the epo usage.

also curious was that armstrong's triglycerides and total cholesterol were abnormally high. this would be indicative of either his consistently crappy diet (unlikely) or...a habitual anabolic steroids use (which are know to raise the values). admittedly, it could also be the result of something else or his natural state (which i doubt).

armstrong's aerobic/anaerobic data
vo2 max of 80 in '91 is confirmed as a true elite mark. but the threshold of 75% and the corresponding watts (340-350) was sub par. in another place the testers even noted that he would need about 400 watts to compete at his level in the itts. they called it an area to develop. perhaps. but the often reported numbers of 450+ watts in the tours are clearly above the training effects (appr 10%) for improving the threshold. massive blood doping would have been required.

the testers also noted his remarkably low lactic acid accumulation and the unusual ability to perform at simulated altitude (related to his unique hg saturation). these could be his true, natural attributes.

there was some other less than remarkable data, including his sub par explosive and anaerobic scores. i also noted that the famous cadence increase was not supported by the pedaling efficiency tests.

overall, more data to both to consider him an elite but not necessarily the world smasher he turned to be.
 
May 18, 2009
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Yes, interesting indeed. The scores of a 20 year old in the winter with no comment on the relative physical shape he was in at that time, with everybody else's name redacted on this 'public' document. I wonder why? Oh yeah....it's good red meat. :rolleyes:
 
Aug 13, 2009
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python said:
armstrong's blood chemistry
as already noted, having the hg above 16 and hct almost 49% as long ago as '91 is quite suspicious when his base level was said to be low 40s. additionally, and this was never mentioned before as far as i can deduce, his iron chemistry (not just the iron level but ferritin, tibc etc) support the notion that he took epo in the early 90's. to remind, in those days the standard procedure required massive iron supplements (or injections) along with epo injections. this would cause either an overshot in iron levels or a change in iron metabolism. what i saw is the change bordering on the limit values consistent with the epo usage.

also curious was that armstrong's triglycerides and total cholesterol were abnormally high. this would be indicative of either his consistently crappy diet (unlikely) or...a habitual anabolic steroids use (which are know to raise the values). admittedly, it could also be the result of something else or his natural state (which i doubt).

The Reasoned Decision continues to be a treasure trove of info

This is what stood out to me as well. There are plenty of data points that indicate his natural levels are in the 38-41 range so 46-48 is large variance. Even if you factor in attitude and/or machine calibration.

It is also interesting that many of the performance numbers are from peak season, June and directly after the Worlds. This is not off season training camp stuff. Also interesting that it is from multiple ages, 19, 21, 23

With those cholesterol number looks like Lance might need some Lipator......or just lay off the dope for a while
 
May 27, 2010
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python said:
a treasure trove of data both on armstrong and the us national team btwn '91 and '95 (i'm going to pin it up).

...

i scanned the 54 pages real fast. in addition to some comments by m. index (which seem sound imo), i'd make the following very tentatively:

-armstrong's physical.
...s % body fat in '91 was 6.5% and 4.2% in '95. meaning, he was at the absolute healthy limit ...

armstrong's blood chemistry
... his iron chemistry (not just the iron level but ferritin, tibc etc) support the notion that he took epo in the early 90's... the change bordering on the limit values consistent with the epo usage.

also curious was that armstrong's triglycerides and total cholesterol were abnormally high. this would be indicative of either his consistently crappy diet (unlikely) or...a habitual anabolic steroids use ...

armstrong's aerobic/anaerobic data
... massive blood doping would have been required.

... the famous cadence increase was not supported by the pedaling efficiency tests.

....


Thanks Python, this is all quite interesting.

Reading between the lines, would this data and these observations help explain why someone like Ferrari could have been of such benefit?

Someone who could better optimize the doping?

Dave.
 
Feb 10, 2010
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python said:
armstrong's blood chemistry
as already noted, having the hg above 16 and hct almost 49% as long ago as '91 is quite suspicious when his base level was said to be low 40s. additionally, and this was never mentioned before as far as i can deduce, his iron chemistry (not just the iron level but ferritin, tibc etc) support the notion that he took epo in the early 90's. to remind, in those days the standard procedure required massive iron supplements (or injections) along with epo injections. this would cause either an overshot in iron levels or a change in iron metabolism. what i saw is the change bordering on the limit values consistent with the epo usage.

also curious was that armstrong's triglycerides and total cholesterol were abnormally high. this would be indicative of either his consistently crappy diet (unlikely) or...a habitual anabolic steroids use (which are know to raise the values). admittedly, it could also be the result of something else or his natural state (which i doubt).

From Carmichael's doping for years, and EPO introduction years before the date of these tests, there's no doubt in my mind his blood values would be all over the map.


Can someone confirm that page one and two includes other riders who seem to have better numbers than Wonderboy? I don't exactly know what I'm looking at.

I just noticed the note in the upper right, "Story point on Lance's high economy." Was anyone else getting this much PR support from USAC? Ever? I mean, besides Lemond who was his own story generator.
 
Aug 9, 2010
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ChrisE said:
Yes, interesting indeed. The scores of a 20 year old in the winter with no comment on the relative physical shape he was in at that time, with everybody else's name redacted on this 'public' document. I wonder why? Oh yeah....it's good red meat. :rolleyes:

Lance the king was ever out of shape?:eek:

:rolleyes:
 
May 27, 2012
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mewmewmew13 said:
this conversation continues to be an endless loop. People try to pretend Lance is still in the big time so they will say anything.
Any word about his new charity?

Chartreuse rubber writsbands are gonna be the rage any day now...
 
May 27, 2012
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I find it to be a continual source of amusement that some here pound the line that because doping didn't end, and because some people didn't get what they deserved, Armstrong's punishment is unjust.

Absurd ideas, you have found fertile grounds here.
 
Aug 9, 2010
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ChewbaccaD said:
I find it to be a continual source of amusement that some here pound the line that because doping didn't end, and because some people didn't get what they deserved, Armstrong's punishment is unjust.

Absurd ideas, you have found fertile grounds here.

or that this thread continues because some of us 'haters' are hung up and obsessed..and 'crazy' like Besty
 
Feb 10, 2010
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ChewbaccaD said:
I find it to be a continual source of amusement that some here pound the line that because doping didn't end, and because some people didn't get what they deserved, Armstrong's punishment is unjust.

Absurd ideas, you have found fertile grounds here.

How else do they cling to some idea Wonderboy is praiseworthy?
 
Feb 10, 2010
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doperhopper said:
just out of curiousity - why didn't Uniballer try to grab The Hour before Jensie?

My theory is McQuaid had no interest. This was made more complicated by the technical specs shifting in crazy ways. It wasn't going to make anyone money either.

The current hour rules guaranteed a new record.
 
May 27, 2010
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doperhopper said:
just out of curiousity - why didn't Uniballer try to grab The Hour before Jensie?

It would not have counted. He's ineligible.

A few years back the Lance camp floated the story that he was training for the hour. That, however, turned out to be some sort of ruse. IIRC there was a viable explanation on how the ruse was used to avoid detection.

Dave.
 
Dec 7, 2010
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doperhopper said:
just out of curiousity - why didn't Uniballer try to grab The Hour before Jensie?
Do you mean recently, or before Lance was banned?

D-Queued said:
A few years back the Lance camp floated the story that he was training for the hour. That, however, turned out to be some sort of ruse. IIRC there was a viable explanation on how the ruse was used to avoid detection.

They used that excuse as early as 2001 (as I'm sure you're familiar, unless you're referring to something more recent?). When David Walsh was on the verge of going public about Lance's association with Ferrari, Stapleton & Co. preempted that by "revealing" it themselves (to Gazetta), using the excuse that part of the reason for consulting Ferrari was for Lance to prepare for an attempt on The Hour record.

He must still be trying to dial in the proper program for that record-breaking event. :rolleyes:
 
May 27, 2010
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Granville57 said:
Do you mean recently, or before Lance was banned?



They used that excuse as early as 2001 (as I'm sure you're familiar, unless you're referring to something more recent?). When David Walsh was on the verge of going public about Lance's association with Ferrari, Stapleton & Co. preempted that by "revealing" it themselves (to Gazetta), using the excuse that part of the reason for consulting Ferrari was for Lance to prepare for an attempt on The Hour record.

He must still be trying to dial in the proper program for that record-breaking event. :rolleyes:

Ah, yes, that was it.

Thanks.

All I could remember was that it was ridiculous. And, that is ridiculous.

Dave.
 
Mar 13, 2009
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DirtyWorks said:
My theory is McQuaid had no interest. This was made more complicated by the technical specs shifting in crazy ways. It wasn't going to make anyone money either.

The current hour rules guaranteed a new record.
Abraham Maslow's law of instrument aka Maslow's hammer.

have an entire bureaucracy and dep't in Aigle accountable to technical specifications, that is what they are gonna do.

aka, US have standing army, standing army qua standing army compelled to be more than just holding their balls in formation.