Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[the sceptic]

"Maybe...” he said when asked if he'd paid for other people's sins. “I was part of a complicated generation, who inherited the habits of the previous generation. There has never an investigation into what they did ... But that's life, the world of sport is sometimes surprising.”

Good post Lance.

 

[Granville57]

If I remember it correctly, Lance said in his SCA testimony that he raced all TDF around 74kg!

Okay, give me an hour or two and I will try and find a reference in the testimony.

I'd be surprised if you do. I don't recall specifics such as that coming up during the SCA testimony, and I couldn't find anything here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/31833754/Lance-Armstrong-Testimony

Glad to be proven wrong though.

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Still pathetic.

 

[Granville57]

Good post Lance.

I liked this one:

I confessed. What more can I say? I said on television what I had to say.

Hmmm, I can think of a few "what mores" that he might offer.


Nice headline though:
Armstrong says his life is still a mess after doping confession
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-says-his-life-is-still-a-mess-after-doping-confession

Even if it's a twisted fabrication of what he actually said.

Needless to say that the end of my career was complicated. It is even still a mess...

Yeah, not quite the same as saying, "My life is still a mess."


OK, which Clinic member is responsible for that headline?

 

[BeagRigh]

...
While none of the interviews are public the Feds submitted some more interviews. Hendershot. Micheal Ball. Pat McIlvain (Stephanie's Husband) and some guy named Dr. Robert Przybelski.

Who was Dr. Robert Przybelski? He was the director of hemoglobin therapeutics at Baxter in the late '90s....mmmmm, Hemassist.

Hemassist? I thought that was a dead end as a HOBC let alone a PED, did Baxter not can the clinical trials?

What's the general thinking on this? I know it came up a few years ago.

Edit: found the 2011 CN article but it doesn't say much...

 

[DirtyWorks]

...
But again, that still leaves us with the HT discrepancy, which certainly suggests he was blood doping during those tests. So maybe he was just doping a lot more during racing, and on some kind of maintenance in the offseason, I don't know. That high HT is a real puzzle to me, and frankly, I wonder why if he was on record in the passport as low 40s, they were unaware of earlier tests in which he was in the high 40s.

I really appreciate you taking the time to write that post. That was a great explanation for a bone idle w@nker like me.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Hemassist? I thought that was a dead end as a HOBC let alone a PED, did Baxter not can the clinical trials?

What's the general thinking on this? I know it came up a few years ago.

Edit: found the 2011 CN article but it doesn't say much...

One of the unsubstantiated claims is Wonderboy had access to experimental drugs that were incredibly useful, if they worked, as PED's.

I don't think it's controversial to state there were many unexplained relationships with medical research at the hospital level and Amgen to name just two.

 

[Bluenote]

Any word on the current SCA Case?

 

[Oldman]

Still pathetic.

Yes. Cycling is "still a mess". But the Cancer awareness community must be doing really well as he prepares to taint yet another charity ride.

 

[Race Radio]

Any word on the current SCA Case?

Should have a decision soon, likely next week

 

[Merckx index]

So what are we talking here to explain all of this? Bionics? Spinach? Radioactive spider?

Well, it wasn’t the same spider that bit Peter Parker, because LA’s vertical leap was a puny 19”, considered “poor” among males his age.

Which doesn’t make much sense to me. Wouldn’t a cyclist, even an endurance cyclist with a preponderance of slow-twitch fibers, have a lot of spring in his legs? And coupled with a relatively low body weight—even roleurs, as LA was at that time, are pretty skinny compared to most other athletes—wouldn’t that enable him to jump like a frog?

Yet even the average for national team cyclists, according to this document, was only 22.5”. What’s going on? What am I missing? Any racers or ex-racers here ever measured their vertical leap?

Robert Przybelski is mentioned in the following CN article.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/experts-call-armstrong-hemassist-connection-unlikely

looking into claims made by Floyd Landis that there was organized doping within Armstrong's US Postal team during the 2002-2004 seasons.

Armstrong's spokesman, Mark Fabiani, told Cyclingnews that because the product was in clinical trials and kept secure, and was discontinued by Baxter Healthcare, Inc, in late 1998 while still under trial, it was "impossible for Lance Armstrong to have obtained HemAssist during the period alleged by SI".

Audran said that the experience of Spanish rider Jesus Manzano, who claims he was injected with an HBOC and then collapsed at the 2003 Tour de France, ended any experimentation with the drug in the professional peloton.

So Manzano could get it, but LA couldn’t?

Yorck Olaf Schumacher, a researcher at the Freiburg University in Germany who was part of the study of a drug similar to HemAssist called Hemopure, said that hemoglobin-based oxygen carriers (HBOCs) showed no performance benefit. "There's nothing up to now that shows or proves that it improves performance," he told AP.

I think that simply reflects that no tests have been done. Remember, even a PED as widely used as EPO has had relatively little testing done as a performance enhancer.

My understanding is that production of HemAssist was discontinued more for safety reasons than for lack of effectiveness. When transfusion is not feasible, they are considered useful, which certainly indicates they do in fact work as oxygen transporters, and would therefore enhance performance. In fact, HBOCs are apparently available in Russia and South Africa, hmmm.

Also, HBOCs are on WADA’s banned list, and as recently as two years ago, research was being conducted into developing a test for them.

 

[mewmewmew13]

A decision!!? wow
unreal

 

[DirtyWorks]

Remember, even a PED as widely used as EPO has had relatively little testing done as a performance enhancer.

I'm not sure what you mean by testing.

Somebody understood immediately how revolutionary it would be and the sports federation knew about it very quickly, but could do nothing for a while.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1581816&postcount=41

It's unclear to me how long it took to sort out usage, but 1990 is a very conservative wild estimate.

 

[Granville57]

Nice headline though:
Armstrong says his life is still a mess after doping confession
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/armstrong-says-his-life-is-still-a-mess-after-doping-confession

Even if it's a twisted fabrication of what he actually said.

Needless to say that the end of my career was complicated. It is even still a mess...

Yeah, not quite the same as saying, "My life is still a mess."


OK, which Clinic member is responsible for that headline?

Um, that was a copy & paste on my part directly from the CN homepage.


I see they've now changed the headline to...

Armstrong says cycling is still in a mess after his doping confession

And they've added the parenthesis to change the implication of Armstrong's remark, but they've done so rather unconvincingly .

I've turned the page. Needless to say that the end of my career was complicated. It (cycling) is even still a mess... but I've moved on from it.

Whatever.

CN: Pushing the limits of amateur journalism.

 

[Archibald]

Yorck Olaf Schumacher, a researcher at the Freiburg University in Germany who was part of the study of a drug similar to HemAssist called Hemopure, said that hemoglobin-based oxygen carriers (HBOCs) showed no performance benefit. "There's nothing up to now that shows or proves that it improves performance," he told AP.

I think that simply reflects that no tests have been done. Remember, even a PED as widely used as EPO has had relatively little testing done as a performance enhancer.

My understanding is that production of HemAssist was discontinued more for safety reasons than for lack of effectiveness. When transfusion is not feasible, they are considered useful, which certainly indicates they do in fact work as oxygen transporters, and would therefore enhance performance. In fact, HBOCs are apparently available in Russia and South Africa, hmmm.

interesting - I remember reading a study done on PEDs back in the 90's that stated that steroids gave no benefit - it did qualify that by saying that "within the recommended safe dosing levels".
So, Schumacher may have a similar quantity level to make that statement. Let's face it, any testing done on something like this would have to stay within the recommended dosing levels purely on liability reasons. No researcher is going to want a dead athlete on their hands through using a higher than 'recommended' dosage...

 

[D-Queued]

I'd be surprised if you do. I don't recall specifics such as that coming up during the SCA testimony, and I couldn't find anything here:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/31833754/Lance-Armstrong-Testimony

Glad to be proven wrong though.

Couldn't find anything in the deposition.

The closest was two mentions of weight related to Ferrari's testing:

Q. Did it involve analysis of your blood, or your physiological makeup?
A. Well, you weigh yourself, so you get your body weight. Lactate testing, of course, like any physiological test.

...

A. He's very particular about nutrition. There was never anything written down, anything specific with regards to nutrition. But body weight being the most important thing, probably the most important thing in cycling

Dave.

 

[Merckx index]

I'm not sure what you mean by testing.

Somebody understood immediately how revolutionary it would be and the sports federation knew about it very quickly, but could do nothing for a while.

http://forum.cyclingnews.com/showpost.php?p=1581816&postcount=41

It's unclear to me how long it took to sort out usage, but 1990 is a very conservative wild estimate.

I mean a controlled study showing that EPO enhances athletic performance. From the very beginning, it was assumed that an oxygen vector would enhance performance—which is why I said HBOCs should do so—but the kind of statement made by Schumacher about HBOCs could have been made about EPO for many years (in fact, wasn’t it only a year or two ago that some scientist claimed—obviously incorrectly, but with a lot of publicity—that there was no compelling evidence that EPO enhanced performance?). When was the first study determining the effect of EPO on FTP carried out? I’m not sure, but the most convincing study was published less than ten years ago, and even then, it necessarily involved non-elite athletes.

You don’t need a scientific study to rationalize taking a PED. If you ride a TT significantly faster than you ever have before with EPO, you know it enhances performance, but that one observation would not suffice for a scientific study.

In the case of HBOCs, the safety problems, as Archibald notes, make even pilot studies difficult. EPO is an approved drug, so it's possible to get approval to run studies on its effect on performance. HBOCs are not approved in most countries, including the U.S., so such studies would not be possible. I assume the studies Schumacher is referring to occurred during an early Phase I or possibly II trial, since if the drug was considered unsafe, it would never get beyond that stage. But drugs that never get beyond that stage would not ordinarily be tested for athletic performance benefits, since the purpose of the drug is for medical benefits.

 

[poupou]

Couldn't find anything in the deposition.

The closest was two mentions of weight related to Ferrari's testing:

Dave.

Sorry for the time lost.

But I'm pretty sure that he said it. Maybe it was after his confession. It would come back at one time or another.

Thanks.

 

[blackcat]

I mean a controlled study showing that EPO enhances athletic performance. From the very beginning, it was assumed that an oxygen vector would enhance performance—which is why I said HBOCs should do so—but the kind of statement made by Schumacher about HBOCs could have been made about EPO for many years (in fact, wasn’t it only a year or two ago that some scientist claimed—obviously incorrectly, but with a lot of publicity—that there was no compelling evidence that EPO enhanced performance?). When was the first study determining the effect of EPO on FTP carried out? I’m not sure, but the most convincing study was published less than ten years ago, and even then, it necessarily involved non-elite athletes.

You don’t need a scientific study to rationalize taking a PED. If you ride a TT significantly faster than you ever have before with EPO, you know it enhances performance, but that one observation would not suffice for a scientific study.

In the case of HBOCs, the safety problems, as Archibald notes, make even pilot studies difficult. EPO is an approved drug, so it's possible to get approval to run studies on its effect on performance. HBOCs are not approved in most countries, including the U.S., so such studies would not be possible. I assume the studies Schumacher is referring to occurred during an early Phase I or possibly II trial, since if the drug was considered unsafe, it would never get beyond that stage. But drugs that never get beyond that stage would not ordinarily be tested for athletic performance benefits, since the purpose of the drug is for medical benefits.

and Museeuw almost lost his leg on perfluorocarbons when he crashed at Roubiax mid 90s and the Saunier Duval manager Mauro Gianetti also almost killed himself on perfluorocarbons in the mid 90s.

Is this the drug when you mainline it, you have to dose up on pure oxygen from a diving canister?

 

[blackcat]

Robert Przybelski is mentioned in the following CN article.
http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/experts-call-armstrong-hemassist-connection-unlikely

Audran said that the experience of Spanish rider Jesus Manzano, who claims he was injected with an HBOC and then collapsed at the 2003 Tour de France, ended any experimentation with the drug in the professional peloton.

So Manzano could get it, but LA couldn’t?

Audran's syllogism is wrong.

Museeuw almost lost his leg. And Gianetti almost died. Well before Kelme.

 

[Bosco10]

Um, that was a copy & paste on my part directly from the CN homepage.


I see they've now changed the headline to...


And they've added the parenthesis to change the implication of Armstrong's remark, but they've done so rather unconvincingly .

Whatever.

CN: Pushing the limits of amateur journalism.

Armstrong says he's planning to meet with CIRC once more to secure a ban reduction. But he also says he's moved on, tuned the page, his career is over. All this sounds a bit contradictory. Can someone clarify?

 

[Alpe d'Huez]

Quick question for those in the know. Does anyone have an estimate on Lance's worth? Last I heard it was about $115m.

Also does anyone know how many houses, or houses/condos/dwellings he owns, and roughly what towns they are in? I know of the large home in Austin, and nice one in Aspen, but I think there are others. Does anyone know?

Also, is Lance still the primary owner of Mellow Johnny's? Does he own any other businesses? Or majority partners in similar?

 

[blackcat]

Quick question for those in the know. Does anyone have an estimate on Lance's worth? Last I heard it was about $115m.

Also does anyone know how many houses, or houses/condos/dwellings he owns, and roughly what towns they are in? I know of the large home in Austin, and nice one in Aspen, but I think there are others. Does anyone know?

Also, is Lance still the primary owner of Mellow Johnny's? Does he own any other businesses? Or majority partners in similar?

did not oconnell and albergotti do this, and did they just extend on DIMspace's work who had compiled this. Aka his second handle, SkyProcycling or SkyProcyclingFAN. I cant remember.

But Dim did some good work. There are ALOT of pies. And he would have an equity stake with incentive bonuses for the IRONMAN company. Dont think he will be vesting those bonuses after his ban. But Stapleton would have been wise enough to lock in an equity stake.

And Och and Gorski when working for Wiesel would have hidden his money in UBS accounts, anon accounts in Zurich.

Lance, even losing his 60 million day, would have be worth a mint. It really depends how many projects Wiesel got him in at the ground floor with some private equity and venture capital plays. The most conservative estimates would have him at 80, after tax and 2008GFC, but if he was given some decent plays by Wiesel, and missed major damage in GFC, he could be worth 250.

nothing that us muppets would ever flirt with.

 

[Bosco10]

^^Yet is he really happy? lol

 

[Oldman]

^^Yet is he really happy? lol

His behavioral pathology would say "not ever" based on a normal frame of reference. Unless he got "happy" when he successfully beat the system or a hated opponent. His friends were clearly dispensable.