-
The Cycling News forum is still looking to add volunteer moderators with. If you're interested in helping keep our discussions on track, send a direct message to
In the meanwhile, please use the Report option if you see a post that doesn't fit within the forum rules.
Thanks!
Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession
The problem with Lance, and it seems as if people still can't fathom that fact (or they simply don't want to), is that there are/were many problems. First, the doping. Fine, most riders in that era were on some sort of PED's, some more, some probably less. But the bus doesn't stop there. He took it to another level, he lied, he manipulated, he threatened, he sued, he hid behind some very powerful sponsors, organizations, he denied, he did actually fail numerous tests (contrary to popular belief), but as most of us here in the clinic recognize, he paid off the UCI and the UCI gladly accepted the bribes, to sweep those under the rug. The UCI and USAC are to blame as well. They knew what was going on, but as long as their is money, prestige and positive attention coming, the better. They certainly weren't going to expose anything. Why would they? They were in on it too. The USAC was no different than the USOC and USATF, covering up hundreds of positives from athletes that later went on to win medals at olympics or world championships. When people compare this with the Russians, they'll say 'yeah, but Armstrong was only one individual, whereas the Russians it's the entire system...' Wrong. Perhaps the Russians aren't very sophisticated, using old models and bad manipulation techniques, or they simply pissed off the wrong people for some reason and it came out. The US authorities are happy about this, not only because it's the ol' foe Russia, but because it hardly puts any attention on them.
The problem with Lance, and it seems as if people still can't fathom that fact (or they simply don't want to), is that there are/were many problems. First, the doping. Fine, most riders in that era were on some sort of PED's, some more, some probably less. But the bus doesn't stop there. He took it to another level, he lied, he manipulated, he threatened, he sued, he hid behind some very powerful sponsors, organizations, he denied, he did actually fail numerous tests (contrary to popular belief), but as most of us here in the clinic recognize, he paid off the UCI and the UCI gladly accepted the bribes, to sweep those under the rug. The UCI and USAC are to blame as well. They knew what was going on, but as long as their is money, prestige and positive attention coming, the better. They certainly weren't going to expose anything. Why would they? They were in on it too. The USAC was no different than the USOC and USATF, covering up hundreds of positives from athletes that later went on to win medals at olympics or world championships. When people compare this with the Russians, they'll say 'yeah, but Armstrong was only one individual, whereas the Russians it's the entire system...' Wrong. Perhaps the Russians aren't very sophisticated, using old models and bad manipulation techniques, or they simply pissed off the wrong people for some reason and it came out. The US authorities are happy about this, not only because it's the ol' foe Russia, but because it hardly puts any attention on them.
Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession
This is really the bigger story. Yeah, Wonderboy was a bad guy from the start. Sometimes I think this broader theme hasn't stuck.
I don't doubt for a minute Wonderboy is experiencing a little pleasure right now and he's right to have that experience.
BullsFan22 said:
This is really the bigger story. Yeah, Wonderboy was a bad guy from the start. Sometimes I think this broader theme hasn't stuck.
I don't doubt for a minute Wonderboy is experiencing a little pleasure right now and he's right to have that experience.
Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession
I agree with you and BullsFan, only I don't think Lance is personally happy with the Russian Fed disaster: they are easy targets and shields for the other powers-that-be: ASO, UCI, OC et al: as long as it's contained as a 'dirty russkie' narrative there will be no change.
The Qui Tam case that's still hanging over his head is probably stopping him from coming forward and saying all the other bodies are party to the deception as well. That and some possible mafioso-style heavies connected to these bodies. Perhaps he's being further paid to keep schtum as his price for being the fall guy. Because of his abrasive and polarising personality, he's an easy target in this regard.
DirtyWorks said:
I agree with you and BullsFan, only I don't think Lance is personally happy with the Russian Fed disaster: they are easy targets and shields for the other powers-that-be: ASO, UCI, OC et al: as long as it's contained as a 'dirty russkie' narrative there will be no change.
The Qui Tam case that's still hanging over his head is probably stopping him from coming forward and saying all the other bodies are party to the deception as well. That and some possible mafioso-style heavies connected to these bodies. Perhaps he's being further paid to keep schtum as his price for being the fall guy. Because of his abrasive and polarising personality, he's an easy target in this regard.
thehog
BANNED
Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession
The most sophisticated organised doping ever, apparently
Stingray34 said:
The most sophisticated organised doping ever, apparently
Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession
Sorry, no. You may pretend otherwise, but Lance was the worstest because he was a really mean guy. He was worser than the Russian FSB. That's worse.
thehog said:Stingray34 said:
The most sophisticated organised doping ever, apparently
Sorry, no. You may pretend otherwise, but Lance was the worstest because he was a really mean guy. He was worser than the Russian FSB. That's worse.
Lance was a Doper.....Big time. No Doubt. But it was his actions off the bike that really brought him down. If he Wins 1 or 2 tours and goes on to ride and Win Classics. We are calling him a Legend right now. But his EGO could not let him do that.
SKY are copying the USPS plan. They are just trying to be nicer about it.
SKY are copying the USPS plan. They are just trying to be nicer about it.
Re:
But I must disagree wholeheartedly that Pharmstrong was just some pawn.
To the contrary, he was il capo di tutti capi, the godfather of cycling's doping culture and the kingpin of a criminal syndicate of his own making, masquerading as a sports team. He wasn't merely a cog in the wheel, he was one of its co-principals, integral to the organisation's planning and the execution. By 2004 he also was a substantial part-owner of Tailwind and therefore also one of the financiers of the deception.
Further, we know that years before the cancer, years before blood vector doping made it way to the pro roadracing circuit, and before Verbruggen would have known him as anything apart from a middling domestique, Pharmstrong already was bribing competitors to throw U.S. races to him. So I think it far more likely that he came by this moral ambiguity all on his own. He didn't need any help learning how to cheat.
And I find it highly unlikely that Verbruggen would have approached Pharmstrong with the one hand extended to present him his positive test results, while also offering the palm of the other hand to accept the cheque to pay for his silence. I think it far more likely that on hearing of the positive result, Pharmstrong made entreaty to Verbruggen to sweep it under the rug. Once their relationship had reached that juncture, it is debatable who was corrupting whom.
And whenever the legitimacy of their efforts was challenged, it was Phamstrong himself who shouted down the accusers, as publicly as was possible in the information age, using a "charitable foundation" (also of his creation) as the bully pulpit upon which to stand while loudly proclaiming his innocense. And I don't think there is any clearer proof than the Simeoni incident that Pharmstrong was anything but a "bit player." He wasn't just part of the show, he was the ringmaster, unrivaled master of all he surveyed.
But his words demonstrate that he does not regret upending lives, crushing careers, stealing purses from his betters, or bringing the sport to the brink of ruin. And those who lack contrition deserve neither compassion nor forgiveness. It is for good reason that he is cycling's bête noire.
Don't forget fraud, embezzlement, money laundering, drug smuggling, distributing pharmaceuticals without license, suborning perjury, and witness tampering, as well as conspiracy to commit most of the above. There are not merely infractions within the framework of the sport, these are quite serious criminal acts.BullsFan22 said:
I agree that the corruption (present tense) goes much deeper, and that they failed miserably to get any reasonable return on the opportunities presented when dethroning Pharmstrong. As FLandis so sagaciously noted in the article earlier linked to by Benotti69,Bicycle tramp said:
But I must disagree wholeheartedly that Pharmstrong was just some pawn.
To the contrary, he was il capo di tutti capi, the godfather of cycling's doping culture and the kingpin of a criminal syndicate of his own making, masquerading as a sports team. He wasn't merely a cog in the wheel, he was one of its co-principals, integral to the organisation's planning and the execution. By 2004 he also was a substantial part-owner of Tailwind and therefore also one of the financiers of the deception.
Further, we know that years before the cancer, years before blood vector doping made it way to the pro roadracing circuit, and before Verbruggen would have known him as anything apart from a middling domestique, Pharmstrong already was bribing competitors to throw U.S. races to him. So I think it far more likely that he came by this moral ambiguity all on his own. He didn't need any help learning how to cheat.
And I find it highly unlikely that Verbruggen would have approached Pharmstrong with the one hand extended to present him his positive test results, while also offering the palm of the other hand to accept the cheque to pay for his silence. I think it far more likely that on hearing of the positive result, Pharmstrong made entreaty to Verbruggen to sweep it under the rug. Once their relationship had reached that juncture, it is debatable who was corrupting whom.
And whenever the legitimacy of their efforts was challenged, it was Phamstrong himself who shouted down the accusers, as publicly as was possible in the information age, using a "charitable foundation" (also of his creation) as the bully pulpit upon which to stand while loudly proclaiming his innocense. And I don't think there is any clearer proof than the Simeoni incident that Pharmstrong was anything but a "bit player." He wasn't just part of the show, he was the ringmaster, unrivaled master of all he surveyed.
What else needs said? Implicit but not stated in that sentence is that he doubtless would alter his tactics somewhat to avoid getting caught. There's no point taking a "do-over" if you don't change ...something, ...right? So maybe the second time around he would re-hire that FLandis guy, if only to hedge his bets.
But his words demonstrate that he does not regret upending lives, crushing careers, stealing purses from his betters, or bringing the sport to the brink of ruin. And those who lack contrition deserve neither compassion nor forgiveness. It is for good reason that he is cycling's bête noire.
Armstrong was rich fruit that dropped into Tygart's lap--just as Landis prepared the ground for the qui tam suit. Once Landis got the United States interested in clawing back Armstrong's ill-gotten gain, you had the federal investigation and then the qui tam lawsuit. Without all that US government horsepower pointing toward getting its money back (via civil or criminal, it doesn't matter), I doubt that Tygart would have had the success that he did.
Tygart interviewed people AFTER the feds had already interviewed them, while the feds were definitely still interested in recovering money via the qui tam. The other crooked dopers on the team were unlikely to lie and run the substantial risk of a perjury or felony obstruction of justice charge. Would Tygart have gotten the same results absent Novitsky's investigation? I think it would have been a much dicier affair.
So you can say that Lance is the worstest in the world, and maybe you are right. But don't confuse Lance's moral value (about -1 on a scale of 1 to 10), with the merit or effectiveness of the action taken by Tygart and USADA. The ONLY reason that Armstrong got caught is because Floyd wanted to get paid. There is no morality behind the USADA action--this is just a story of Floyd going Count of Monte Cristo on Lance's ass.
Tygart interviewed people AFTER the feds had already interviewed them, while the feds were definitely still interested in recovering money via the qui tam. The other crooked dopers on the team were unlikely to lie and run the substantial risk of a perjury or felony obstruction of justice charge. Would Tygart have gotten the same results absent Novitsky's investigation? I think it would have been a much dicier affair.
So you can say that Lance is the worstest in the world, and maybe you are right. But don't confuse Lance's moral value (about -1 on a scale of 1 to 10), with the merit or effectiveness of the action taken by Tygart and USADA. The ONLY reason that Armstrong got caught is because Floyd wanted to get paid. There is no morality behind the USADA action--this is just a story of Floyd going Count of Monte Cristo on Lance's ass.
Just had a YouTube suggestion pop that I hadn't clicked on, from back in the day.
Charlie Rose, Emmy winning journalist: "Hard work will beat drugs any day of the week".
Good God. Maybe it's nine step forwards and eight steps back, but things have gotten better, IMHO. YMMV.
Charlie Rose, Emmy winning journalist: "Hard work will beat drugs any day of the week".
Good God. Maybe it's nine step forwards and eight steps back, but things have gotten better, IMHO. YMMV.
Re: Re:
Exactly. Why can't people understand this? A person is not going to work his ass off to make it at the bottom rung then start doping so he can now dog it and stay at the same level. No. Doping will enable them to work harder and recover better so they can get better results and make more money.MarkvW said:
thehog
BANNED
Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2016/08/30/federal-lance-armstrong-lawsuit-usps-false-claims-act-ruling/89573784/
http://www.usatoday.com/story/sports/cycling/2016/08/30/federal-lance-armstrong-lawsuit-usps-false-claims-act-ruling/89573784/
thehog
BANNED
Re: Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession
The speaking circuit can be lucrative...
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/lance-armstrong-set-for-live-public-interview-in-dublin-in-october-754451.html
The speaking circuit can be lucrative...
http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/sport/lance-armstrong-set-for-live-public-interview-in-dublin-in-october-754451.html
FYI http://www.thejournal.ie/irish-tech-events-2-2691647-Mar2016/ I think Froome spoke when it was part of WebSummit.
RDS is where LA held his cancer summit, the last year of the Irish race where (it was alleged) money had been diverted to pay for the summit in order to get LA at the race (such stories - true or not true, that they circulate tells you what people thought of the race organisers).
RDS is where LA held his cancer summit, the last year of the Irish race where (it was alleged) money had been diverted to pay for the summit in order to get LA at the race (such stories - true or not true, that they circulate tells you what people thought of the race organisers).
A thousand pardons if this has been posted/discussed previously.
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/09/news/lance-armstrongs-doping-ban-expires-sort-of_420287
http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/09/news/lance-armstrongs-doping-ban-expires-sort-of_420287
Re:
but only so long as the local sport event is not at a level that could otherwise qualify such Athlete or other Person directly or indirectly to compete in (or accumulate points toward) a national championship or International Event.
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/09/news/lance-armstrongs-doping-ban-expires-sort-of_420287#xTczS5VKHy5KQ1XT.99
It would seem LA still cannot compete in sanctioned events. For example, many if not most triathlons are sanctioned by some governing authority such as a provincial or state triathlon association which in turn are part of national associations, who typically give the OK for sanctioning a triathlon as an official tri.
The sanctioning is for the purpose of allowing participants to accumulate points or to qualify for national or international events. So it appears he can only compete in local "non-sanctioned" other sports.
Puckfiend said:
but only so long as the local sport event is not at a level that could otherwise qualify such Athlete or other Person directly or indirectly to compete in (or accumulate points toward) a national championship or International Event.
Read more at http://velonews.competitor.com/2016/09/news/lance-armstrongs-doping-ban-expires-sort-of_420287#xTczS5VKHy5KQ1XT.99
It would seem LA still cannot compete in sanctioned events. For example, many if not most triathlons are sanctioned by some governing authority such as a provincial or state triathlon association which in turn are part of national associations, who typically give the OK for sanctioning a triathlon as an official tri.
The sanctioning is for the purpose of allowing participants to accumulate points or to qualify for national or international events. So it appears he can only compete in local "non-sanctioned" other sports.
TRENDING THREADS
-
World Championships 2024: Men's Road Race (September 29)- Started by Devil's Elbow
- Replies: 2K
-
Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread- Started by DNP-Old
- Replies: 29K
-
Teams & Riders The Great Big Cycling Transfers, Extensions, and Rumours Thread- Started by RedheadDane
- Replies: 11K
-
Il Lombardia 2024, one day monument, October 12, farewell to Domenico Pozzovivo- Started by Lequack
- Replies: 880
-
Teams & Riders Tadej Pogačar discussion thread- Started by Lequack
- Replies: 22K
-
-
Teams & Riders Everybody needs a little bit of Roglstomp in their lives- Started by johnymax
- Replies: 19K
Latest posts
-
-
-
-
-
Teams & Riders The Remco Evenepoel is the next Eddy Merckx thread
- Latest: Eddy Evenepoel
-
Facebook
Twitter
Instagram