Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[Skijumper Roglic fan]

I just remembered Lance‘s speech, on the podium, in Paris, in July 2005…

When I, few minutes ago, remembered that his last words were „Vive le Tour. Forever.“, it brought me tears to my eyes. How right he was…

Vive le Tour, forever. Vive Lance, forever. Can‘t wait for next July, for TdF 2024…

 

[buddy buddy buddy]

total Astana tdf 2009 recall

There was a bit of a shocker tonight on Stars on Mars as Lance Armstrong exited the reality competition show. But rather than be eliminated by being determined as “not mission critical” which is the normal course of the game, Armstrong left of his own accord.

The show features 12 varied personalities living together in an environment meant to simulate life on Mars. Each episode, they are given a challenge that they must tackle in teams, and by the show's end, the person deemed least “mission-critical” is sent home.

After a rough stretch of missions where Armstrong struggled to get along with many of his fellow cast mates, the famous cyclist was starting to get the feeling that the end was near.

"I woke up today, and thought, 'I'm going home today,'" Armstrong said to fellow cast mate Cat Cora early in Monday's installment.

The episode included a mission to track down and expel an invader Armstrong was paired with Modern Family’s Ariel Winter, with whom he has clashed all season long. They managed to crawl through an air vent together without any major drama, but both ended up in the week's bottom three alongside NBA legend Paul Pierce. And that’s when Armstrong pled his case — to go home, that is.

“Life on Mars is not easy. You can't put 12 different people together in a room and expect them to get along,” said Armstrong to his fellow teammates. “And that's what I'm struggling with. And so I think going forward, that would be a liability, not just for myself but for the team. It’s been a hell of an honor, so I have decided to exit the project."

 

[tristecsinamigos]

Santiago Botero: 'For me Armstrong is the winner of the seven Tour de France'


"...What do you think of Armstrong?

In my opinion, despite his confession about prohibited substances, he still would have won the Tour de France. It is a perception as a cyclist, not as a fan. I also don't judge the fan who points him out as a cheater. But, for me, Armstrong is the winner of the seven Tour de France...."

Santiago Botero: 'Para mí Armstrong es el ganador de los siete Tour de Francia'

Una de las grandes leyendas del ciclismo nacional cuenta su historia en la Revista BOCAS.

www.eltiempo.com

 

[Salvarani]

All things considered, they were all cheating.

Everyone was doing something.

Had he never came back and rubbed some people the wrong way, they would have let him have it. He can only blame himself in the end.

Former riders have confessed of doping... but their palmares are still intact.

It is not that Armstrong dont deserve it and that he didnt get what was coming to him, but there is just no consistency. A few years later... stripping him of all Tours just feel like it was done out of spite.

Like was he the worst or was he just the best?

 

[Sciatic]

All things considered, they were all cheating.

Everyone was doing something.

Had he never came back and rubbed some people the wrong way, they would have let him have it. He can only blame himself in the end.

Former riders have confessed of doping... but their palmares are still intact.

It is not that Armstrong dont deserve it and that he didnt get what was coming to him, but there is just no consistency. A few years later... stripping him of all Tours just feel like it was done out of spite.

Like was he the worst or was he just the best?

From a U.S. perspective he was the worst, and we probably don’t know the worst of it. His doping was just one part of his cheating. Worse was virulent attacks on critics that trashed people’s lives and the fraudulence of promoting a “clean sport” message mixed with his cancer-awareness message—all those bracelet wearing fans who weren’t even cycling fans who kept drinking the cool-aid long after any actual cycling fan had shed any doubts about veracity. That was sad to see—and was his biggest fraud.

 

[Salvarani]

From a U.S. perspective he was the worst, and we probably don’t know the worst of it. His doping was just one part of his cheating. Worse was virulent attacks on critics that trashed people’s lives and the fraudulence of promoting a “clean sport” message mixed with his cancer-awareness message—all those bracelet wearing fans who weren’t even cycling fans who kept drinking the cool-aid long after any actual cycling fan had shed any doubts about veracity. That was sad to see—and was his biggest fraud.

I guess this is why they put the hammer down on him. Because he presented that larger than life type stuff. The crazy part is he still would have gotten away with it, if not for the comeback.

He cheated in more ways than one, but is it "fair" to put everything in the same category as the doping/cycling aspect of things and strip all the results... while other confessed dopers still kept their palmares.

I dont know. Preferably you would just like to forget everything about this era in cycling, but most people still remember who won the races on the road.

I bet those who is now known as the "winners" dont care at all about it. They dont feel like they won or got to feel like a winner. Most of them were cheating as well.

Just lost years. They could have just erased everything or kept it in place. The damage was done in the public eye to Armstrong. He lost all endorsements, sponsorships and so on. I dont feel sorry for him at all... but a lot of people still knows/feel like he did win those Tours, despite everything. It cant really be erased no matter what you do with it, even after all these years.

 

[Sciatic]

Those are fair points you make about whether from just the doping perspective, why vacate his results but not others? And I guess some people want to be able to differentiate who was the “real” winner. That doesn’t matter to me. It’s clearer who the real loser was; the sport of cycling.

 

[pmcg76]

I guess this is why they put the hammer down on him. Because he presented that larger than life type stuff. The crazy part is he still would have gotten away with it, if not for the comeback.

He cheated in more ways than one, but is it "fair" to put everything in the same category as the doping/cycling aspect of things and strip all the results... while other confessed dopers still kept their palmares.

I dont know. Preferably you would just like to forget everything about this era in cycling, but most people still remember who won the races on the road.

I bet those who is now known as the "winners" dont care at all about it. They dont feel like they won or got to feel like a winner. Most of them were cheating as well.

Just lost years. They could have just erased everything or kept it in place. The damage was done in the public eye to Armstrong. He lost all endorsements, sponsorships and so on. I dont feel sorry for him at all... but a lot of people still knows/feel like he did win those Tours, despite everything. It cant really be erased no matter what you do with it, even after all these years.

Was Armstrong not given the possibility of keeping all or some of those wins if he had co-operated with the USADA investigation, but chose not?

I despise Armstrong and yet I do not see anybody else as winners of those Tours, I was just happy to seem him exposed for the fraud and douchebag that he was. Trying to bully everyone and using Cancer as a shield just made him so much worse than any of the other dopers.

 

[Salvarani]

Was Armstrong not given the possibility of keeping all or some of those wins if he had co-operated with the USADA investigation, but chose not?

I despise Armstrong and yet I do not see anybody else as winners of those Tours, I was just happy to seem him exposed for the fraud and douchebag that he was. Trying to bully everyone and using Cancer as a shield just made him so much worse than any of the other dopers.

That could be the reason but we dont really know what they may have wanted to know or what he was asked to do. Maybe he chose to take most of the hit/fall on his own. Instead of talking.

Yeah, I dont like him either and he had made a lot of enemies during those years.

 

[yaco]

Was Armstrong not given the possibility of keeping all or some of those wins if he had co-operated with the USADA investigation, but chose not?

I despise Armstrong and yet I do not see anybody else as winners of those Tours, I was just happy to seem him exposed for the fraud and douchebag that he was. Trying to bully everyone and using Cancer as a shield just made him so much worse than any of the other dopers.

Lance would have been stripped of two years of results if he pleaded guilty.

 

[ManicJack]

That could be the reason but we dont really know what they may have wanted to know or what he was asked to do. Maybe he chose to take most of the hit/fall on his own. Instead of talking.

They wanted to connect Thom Weisel/ Amgen to Nike and their performance program. It was bigger than cycling. Just my thoughts obviously.

 

[Oldermanish]

All things considered, they were all cheating.

Everyone was doing something.

Had he never came back and rubbed some people the wrong way, they would have let him have it. He can only blame himself in the end.

Former riders have confessed of doping... but their palmares are still intact.

It is not that Armstrong dont deserve it and that he didnt get what was coming to him, but there is just no consistency. A few years later... stripping him of all Tours just feel like it was done out of spite.

Like was he the worst or was he just the best?

"They" all weren't cheating. "Everyone" wasn't doing something, either. It's sad that this equivocation is used to maybe, hopefully equalize his stature in cycling and sport in general. Sadder still is that Lance still can't own his history and put that talk to rest but his deeper needs prevent it.

 

[Salvarani]

"They" all weren't cheating. "Everyone" wasn't doing something, either. It's sad that this equivocation is used to maybe, hopefully equalize his stature in cycling and sport in general. Sadder still is that Lance still can't own his history and put that talk to rest but his deeper needs prevent it.

Not really what I was doing at all.

I think Lance feels he was the best, because he was better than the other guys who were doping just as much. He beat them "fair and square", because they were doing the same thing as him. Admittedly.

This is known! Saying they werent cheating and everyone wasnt doing something... is just naive. With everything that has come out from the 90s and the 00s... how can you believe anything else?

If you were a pro rider, you were doing something. Giving some riders the benefit of the doubt... they must have still been very much aware on what was going on and just looked the other way. Those guys are not really that "innocent" either.

It is not that Armstrong dont deserve the punishment. No one is defending him. However, confessed dopers hasnt got their palmares stripped? They should have gotten it removed the moment they confessed, if being consistent with it.

If anything... Armstrong took the hit and blame for something much bigger. Something bigger than him.

The ironic thing is the cheater got cheated, but you know... everyone makes their own bed. Because he did do all that stuff that has been said.

 

[Oldermanish]

Not really what I was doing at all.

I think Lance feels he was the best, because he was better than the other guys who were doping just as much. He beat them "fair and square", because they were doing the same thing as him. Admittedly.

This is known! Saying they werent cheating and everyone wasnt doing something... is just naive. With everything that has come out from the 90s and the 00s... how can you believe anything else?

If you were a pro rider, you were doing something. Giving some riders the benefit of the doubt... they must have still been very much aware on what was going on and just looked the other way. Those guys are not really that "innocent" either.

It is not that Armstrong dont deserve the punishment. No one is defending him. However, confessed dopers hasnt got their palmares stripped? They should have gotten it removed the moment they confessed, if being consistent with it.

If anything... Armstrong took the hit and blame for something much bigger. Something bigger than him.

The ironic thing is the cheater got cheated, but you know... everyone makes their own bed. Because he did do all that stuff that has been said.

Your whole response is wishful history. Lance was beaten by teammates that didn't dope. He was beaten by other riders from other teams that didn't dope. These are known people. Could those same riders win a Tour against GT specialists that did dope? I'd say No. GTs as they were contested then, and possibly now are too demanding to be totally clean and be competitive. See....no naivete' there.

He and his mentor/supporter are well known for cheating on every level beyond doping. That he would ever still pose with framed yellow jersies in his home is pathetic delusion and I doubt he truly believes most of the sh*t he says. He's been cheated of nothing.

 

[Unchained]

They wanted to connect Thom Weisel/ Amgen to Nike and their performance program. It was bigger than cycling. Just my thoughts obviously.

Everyone was cheating. From the top down. Posts above say Lance was stripped of his titles while others weren't because he was extra arrogant and pissed people off more than others.. probably true. But Laurent Fignon was a doper and all the rest and the record books are not modified and revised accordingly. And now Jan Ulrich will profit from a mini series were he will surely be given some creative control not to portray him as a crazed addicted dope fiend. If you are going to change the records, change them, do it right.. and get rid of the martyr thing like w Johan Bruyneel while others that are as guilty are still in the elite hierarchy. Absolutely absurd.. and nobody from the UCI got toasted

 

[Oldermanish]

Everyone was cheating. From the top down. Posts above say Lance was stripped of his titles while others weren't because he was extra arrogant and pissed people off more than others.. probably true. But Laurent Fignon was a doper and all the rest and the record books are not modified and revised accordingly. And now Jan Ulrich will profit from a mini series were he will surely be given some creative control not to portray him as a crazed addicted dope fiend. If you are going to change the records, change them, do it right.. and get rid of the martyr thing like w Johan Bruyneel while others that are as guilty are still in the elite hierarchy. Absolutely absurd.. and nobody from the UCI got toasted

and Armstrong was the biggest media draw that the UCI, promoters, sponsors were profitting off. It was the heyday/payday after the drought caused by Festina's scandal so there was actual money to be made. No shortage of villains and semi-innocent pawns to go around, for sure.

 

[ManicJack]

Your whole response is wishful history. Lance was beaten by teammates that didn't dope. He was beaten by other riders from other teams that didn't dope.

Please elaborate

 

[Oldermanish]

Please elaborate

I meant that non-doping riders from Montgomery-Suburu and Motorola beat him in specific events, including TTs. As a junior and espoir racer he was beaten by most of the National team juniors that we trained. They were all clean. Is that specific enough?
That they were clean and were aware enough to understand what the demands were in Europe and those teams meant most of them elected not to race there or quit altogether.
Ask Jonathan Vaughters, for one. As a junior amateur he beat Lance who was a pro.

 

[ManicJack]

I meant that non-doping riders from Montgomery-Suburu ....... As a junior and espoir racer he was beaten by most of the National team juniors that we trained.

Montgomery Subaru aka Weasels first major venture into his future shenanigans. That's funny. To the bolded. You trained them? We must know each other.

 

[Salvarani]

Everyone was cheating. From the top down. Posts above say Lance was stripped of his titles while others weren't because he was extra arrogant and pissed people off more than others.. probably true. But Laurent Fignon was a doper and all the rest and the record books are not modified and revised accordingly. And now Jan Ulrich will profit from a mini series were he will surely be given some creative control not to portray him as a crazed addicted dope fiend. If you are going to change the records, change them, do it right.. and get rid of the martyr thing like w Johan Bruyneel while others that are as guilty are still in the elite hierarchy. Absolutely absurd.. and nobody from the UCI got toasted

Exactly.

 

[Squire]

I bet those who is now known as the "winners" dont care at all about it. They dont feel like they won or got to feel like a winner. Most of them were cheating as well.

I think Andy Schleck said that he felt like the winner of the 2010 Tour when it was given to him. But that is perhaps just what he needed to say in the media. It would probably be bad press if he said otherwise.

The stripping of results is just anti-doping doing what they have to do. Anyone who follows cycling know what they have seen unfolding on the road. Pretending like Cobo didn't win the 2011 Vuelta or that the 2003 Tour had no winner changes nothing, really.

 

[roundabout]

Anyone? Obviously I can only speak for myself, but post Festina there has always been doubt (even today) in the back of my mind that what I see 'unfolding on the road' is not real.

And no, I do not believe that same riders would be at the top regardless of the level of doping in the sport.

 

[Netserk]

Anyone? Obviously I can only speak for myself, but post Festina there has always been doubt (even today) in the back of my mind that what I see 'unfolding on the road' is not real.

And no, I do not believe that same riders would be at the top regardless of the level of doping in the sport.

I find it difficult to grasp what exactly you distinguish between by what is "real" and what is "not real".

Especially with "even today". If Festina was fake, Lance was fake, and there since then has been doubt as to whether the following were fake, then I'd be much more certain about the fakeness of today than that ten years ago.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Armstrong was a doper but so were his top rivals. To win the Tour 7 times...he was a monster athlete, no doubts (and a cheater at the same time, there's no contradiction here). He was stripped of his 7 titles due to being a jerk - that's the way karma hit him back, deservingly. On a sporting level the only doubt I have is if there was a level playing field in doping - if Armstrong was allowed to do more (due to connections with the UCI) then he didn't deserve his titles even though his rivals doped as well.

 

[Hugh Januss]

Armstrong was a doper but so were his top rivals. To win the Tour 7 times...he was a monster athlete, no doubts (and a cheater at the same time, there's no contradiction here). He was stripped of his 7 titles due to being a jerk - that's the way karma hit him back, deservingly. On a sporting level the only doubt I have is if there was a level playing field in doping - if Armstrong was allowed to do more (due to connections with the UCI) then he didn't deserve his titles even though his rivals doped as well.

They all doped, but only one doper was a business partner with Pat McQuaid, the head of the UCI and Phil Liggett and Paul Sherwin, the voice of the TDF at least in the English speaking world. Only one doper gave monetary "gifts" to the UCI, and as far as we know only one doper had positive tests covered up.