Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[Cookster15]

I thought we all knew there are different levels of doping depending what risk you were prepared to take getting caught?

Lance wasn’t just obsessive about his training and diet he also realised he must dope better than everyone else. No doubt his rivalry with Ullrich or even Basso helped him maintain that focus.

As for testosterone, I had a friend who was prescribed that for a genuine medical condition before 2006. He said it made him much stronger climbing. And this disregards the recovery boost. My friend immediately called BS when Floyd claimed testosterone doesn’t help endurance sport performance.

 

[Netserk]

If you don't need to test negative, you can obviously use quite a different dosage.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

If you don't need to test negative, you can obviously use quite a different dosage.

Yeah, Floyd's ride was legendary and it still wasn't enough for him. Apparently at the finish he had a spat with some journalists and wanted to continue riding!

 

[Aragon]

Yeah, Floyd's ride was legendary and it still wasn't enough for him. Apparently at the finish he had a spat with some journalists and wanted to continue riding!

Was Floyd's performance per se supermutant or was it only extraordinary vs. the rest of the Peloton?

IIRC, he wasn't seen as a serious GC contender anymore after his complete failure at the earlier stage and therefore there existed little incentives to catch him during his desperado breakaway particularly when his attack had the same landscapes where Pantani had failed 6 years earlier in his desperate attack to gain some minutes vs. Armstrong. When Maillot Jaune Oscar Pereiro was worried, when the gap didn't close, the other cyclists just said "Help yourself, and catch him alone, if you want to waste your energy" or akin.

About the performance boost of T or roids more generally, it is noteworthy that there hasn't been much measured, when they have been tested in well-trained athletes in rare peer reviewed papers. It is possible that the structure of the experiments is limited, but interestingly the presumed increases in Hct or psychotrophic boost appears to be of very limited value.

The Soviet scientists had one classified academic dissertation from the early 1970s in which some parameters were improved after steroid administration. IIRC, the subjects were mostly students and far from even national level athletes.

 

[Krzysztof_O]

Was Floyd's performance per se supermutant or was it only extraordinary vs. the rest of the Peloton?

IIRC, he wasn't seen as a serious GC contender anymore after his complete failure at the earlier stage and therefore there existed little incentives to catch him during his desperado breakaway particularly when his attack had the same landscapes where Pantani had failed 6 years earlier in his desperate attack to gain some minutes vs. Armstrong. When Maillot Jaune Oscar Pereiro was worried, when the gap didn't close, the other cyclists just said "Help yourself, and catch him alone, if you want to waste your energy" or akin.

About the performance boost of T or roids more generally, it is noteworthy that there hasn't been much measured, when they have been tested in well-trained athletes in rare peer reviewed papers. It is possible that the structure of the experiments is limited, but interestingly the presumed increases in Hct or psychotrophic boost appears to be of very limited value.

The Soviet scientists had one classified academic dissertation from the early 1970s in which some parameters were improved after steroid administration. IIRC, the subjects were mostly students and far from even national level athletes.

The level of the peleton was still very high then ie see Alpe times that year. The way Floyd recovered from his collapse stage earlier and produced this performance was incredible. Testosteron must have helped with his recovery. He killed helpers and only Sastre managed to have better time on Joux plane, despite Floyd hanging out there for like 130 km.

 

[Oldermanish]

I thought we all knew there are different levels of doping depending what risk you were prepared to take getting caught?

Lance wasn’t just obsessive about his training and diet he also realised he must dope better than everyone else. No doubt his rivalry with Ullrich or even Basso helped him maintain that focus.

As for testosterone, I had a friend who was prescribed that for a genuine medical condition before 2006. He said it made him much stronger climbing. And this disregards the recovery boost. My friend immediately called BS when Floyd claimed testosterone doesn’t help endurance sport performance.

It does what you suggest it does. Recovery is the biggest asset to riders trying to get an edge because they need to train harder to get it. Same with EPO/blood doping; dopers need iron supplements and other aids to maintain the red cell count and mask it at the same time.
Question: Any data on iron toxicity levels in biopassports these days? If I recall that was a revelation when the UCI first required it: that some ridiculous amount of riders, like 70%; showed signs of toxic iron levels.
As for Floyd; he later admitted all so the claim about T-patches probably isn't a thing with him anymore.

 

[Oldermanish]

The level of the peleton was still very high then ie see Alpe times that year. The way Floyd recovered from his collapse stage earlier and produced this performance was incredible. Testosteron must have helped with his recovery. He killed helpers and only Sastre managed to have better time on Joux plane, despite Floyd hanging out there for like 130 km.

Floyd was tactically isolated on that "bonk" stage and couldn't get enough water and I think everyone was at limit. A fluid recovery via IV would be more helpful than just testosterone. He was also one angry mo-fo at the way his opposition rode against him and claimed they blocked him from water hand-ups. That performance was as much of his cumulative "form" and motivation as any short term remedy, IMO.
No shock that Mr. Armstrong was in the background of things, tut-tutting about Floyd's inability without drugs.

 

[Cookster15]

Was Floyd's performance per se supermutant or was it only extraordinary vs. the rest of the Peloton?

IIRC, he wasn't seen as a serious GC contender anymore after his complete failure at the earlier stage and therefore there existed little incentives to catch him during his desperado breakaway particularly when his attack had the same landscapes where Pantani had failed 6 years earlier in his desperate attack to gain some minutes vs. Armstrong. When Maillot Jaune Oscar Pereiro was worried, when the gap didn't close, the other cyclists just said "Help yourself, and catch him alone, if you want to waste your energy" or akin.

About the performance boost of T or roids more generally, it is noteworthy that there hasn't been much measured, when they have been tested in well-trained athletes in rare peer reviewed papers. It is possible that the structure of the experiments is limited, but interestingly the presumed increases in Hct or psychotrophic boost appears to be of very limited value.

The Soviet scientists had one classified academic dissertation from the early 1970s in which some parameters were improved after steroid administration. IIRC, the subjects were mostly students and far from even national level athletes.

Floyd didn't lose much, if any, time of the Joux Plane despite being solo for 100+km. Absolutely it was Floyd's extraordinary performance. I also recall Stuart O'Grady was in the break that Floyd caught. O'Grady said he's been a bike rider for long enough to know what is normal and that wasn't normal.

 

[Le breton]

The level of the peleton was still very high then ie see Alpe times that year. The way Floyd recovered from his collapse stage earlier and produced this performance was incredible. Testosteron must have helped with his recovery. He killed helpers and only Sastre managed to have better time on Joux plane, despite Floyd hanging out there for like 130 km.

Remember also that Landis Hct was 49.9% that day.
Anyway, it was an hilarious stage.

 

[zlev11]

if i haven't watched that stage in awhile my brain always starts thinking "yeah it was a good ride but it was very tactical too" but then i watch it again and it's *** insane lol. first he absolutely shreds the whole peloton off his wheel, dropping any GC rider that tried to go with him one-by-one (its before the live coverage started that day but the OLN coverage has a little highlight package of him doing this), then crosses a 6+ minute gap to the breakaway in one climb, detonates that group and then does the Joux Plane 2nd fastest of anyone. his descending is also amazing too. there are teams riding a decent pace on the front of the peloton the entire time, they do not just "let him go" at any stage really, especially on the Colombiere the yellow group gets really selective and the gap goes UP by like 4 minutes. drugs or no drugs it's the best ride of all-time.

 

[Sciatic]

About the performance boost of T or roids more generally, it is noteworthy that there hasn't been much measured, when they have been tested in well-trained athletes in rare peer reviewed papers. It is possible that the structure of the experiments is limited, but interestingly the presumed increases in Hct or psychotrophic boost appears to be of very limited value.

The Soviet scientists had one classified academic dissertation from the early 1970s in which some parameters were improved after steroid administration. IIRC, the subjects were mostly students and far from even national level athletes.

It would be very interesting to know what else (blood transfusions likely) the E. German & Russians gave their athletes in the 70s and 80s, but we know they did use massive amounts of steroids, particularly for girls & women. That was obvious in their sprinters of course, but you also had Cierpinski winning 2 consecutive Olympic marathon and Soviet and GDR runners completely dominating the 1500/mile for more than a decade. Unfortunately, there were no Olympic events longer than the 1500 for women of that era, so we can’t quite see how their results would translate in true endurance events.

Various types of blood boosting were being used too so it’s hard to separate what was doing what.

 

[Unchained]

Floyd didn't lose much, if any, time of the Joux Plane despite being solo for 100+km. Absolutely it was Floyd's extraordinary performance. I also recall Stuart O'Grady was in the break that Floyd caught. O'Grady said he's been a bike rider for long enough to know what is normal and that wasn't normal.

Funny I went to 2 fundraisers for Landis ..and just to make everything that much more funny,

View: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=RMxavNT7yIQ&pp=ygUqdGhlIHN0YWdlIHRoYXQgY2hhbmdlZCB0aGUgdG91ciBkZSBmcmFuY2Ug

 

[Unchained]

* if anyone knows a link to the Landis events at Brooklyn Brewing or the roller races at the Parkside Lounge in NYC..forever in your debt. There are days maybe weeks worth of videos and interviews of the pre convicted Lance defending himself!! Too easy!!

 

[Oldermanish]

It would be very interesting to know what else (blood transfusions likely) the E. German & Russians gave their athletes in the 70s and 80s, but we know they did use massive amounts of steroids, particularly for girls & women. That was obvious in their sprinters of course, but you also had Cierpinski winning 2 consecutive Olympic marathon and Soviet and GDR runners completely dominating the 1500/mile for more than a decade. Unfortunately, there were no Olympic events longer than the 1500 for women of that era, so we can’t quite see how their results would translate in true endurance events.

Various types of blood boosting were being used too so it’s hard to separate what was doing what.

Look at the US Olympic Cycling teams medal haul in LA in the Russian absence.....Eddy B had everyone blood boosted as it was quasi-legal.
He also had no shyness about recovery aids and their application; all courtesy of his East Euro/Post Soviet coaching knowledge. So YES.

 

[Aragon]

It would be very interesting to know what else (blood transfusions likely) the E. German & Russians gave their athletes in the 70s and 80s...

AFAIK, there is next to no evidence of East German athletes using blood doping except in the last few years of the regime. Just random speculation, but there is just no smoking gun.

There exists a sizeable amount of material on the R&D of the Soviet blood doping - program from the 1970s and 1980s, when Soviet scientists conducted the research to fine tune aspects of the method. One of the academic dissertations (by Prof N.I. Volkov) has been reviewed by Dr., Mikhail Kalinski, but it is not borderline impossible that the rest of the material will be also reviewed in detail in the future.

 

[Nomad]

Armstrong interview with Bill Maher. At 1:13 into the interview, he talks about how easy it was to cheat & not test positive with EPO. He mentions that EPO has a half-life of ~4 hrs & it was not that difficult to avoid testing positive.

That's funny because there were so many riders during the Armstrong era that tested positive for EPO & it's variants (e.g. CERA, NESP). Was he the only one that knew about the 4 hr half-life? Lol

The rest of the interview is mundane & extraneous on the topic of his doping, IMO.

View: https://youtu.be/rlDKKez4q7o?si=9AM22MvngAdrb3DW

 

[Sciatic]

Armstrong interview with Bill Maher. At 1:13 into the interview, he talks about how easy it was to cheat & not test positive with EPO. He mentions that EPO has a half-life of ~4 hrs & it was not that difficult to avoid testing positive.

That's funny because there were so many riders during the Armstrong era that tested positive for EPO & it's variants (e.g. CERA, NESP). Was he the only one that knew about the 4 hr half-life? Lol

2006 Ashendon study: "This study appraised the veracity of claims that athletes can evade doping controls by injecting microdoses of recombinant human erythropoietin (rHuEPO), which rapidly disappear from the circulation. We confirmed that microdosing can reduce the window of detection to as little as 12-18 hours
post-injection, suggesting that authorities must adopt appropriate counter measures."

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/6915012_The_effects_of_microdose_recombinant_human_erythropoietin_regimens_in_athletes

Also: "While the half-life of a drug provides a time estimate for how long a drug will have a therapeutic effect, anti-doping tests look for both the active drug (or parent compound) and metabolites in both blood and urine. Metabolites of drugs can linger much longer in the system than the active form of the drug. This means that the half-life calculation often underestimates how long a drug can be detected in the body."

https://www.usada.org/spirit-of-sport/education/drug-half-life/

 

[Sciatic]

He mentions that EPO has a half-life of ~4 hrs & it was not that difficult to avoid testing positive.

That's funny because there were so many riders during the Armstrong era that tested positive for EPO & it's variants (e.g. CERA, NESP). Was he the only one that knew about the 4 hr half-life? Lol

As for CERA, you're right, it is curious that was used as PED to the extent it was. Did the doping docs not know about the longer half-life?: "Due to an altered affinity to the EPO-receptor the serum half life of CERA is greatly enhanced (up to ca. 6 days; Jelkmann 2008). Due to the altered structure and higher molecular mass it can be easily differentiated from other Epoetins"
Reichel, C., G. Meiner, G. (2010). Erythropoietin and Analogs. In: Doping in Sports: Biochemical Principles, Effects and Analysis. Handbook of Experimental Pharmacology, vol 195. (paywalled).

 

[Netserk]

As for CERA, you're right, it is curious that was used as PED to the extent it was. Did the doping docs not know about the longer half-life?: "Due to an altered affinity to the EPO-receptor the serum half life of CERA is greatly enhanced (up to ca. 6 days; Jelkmann 2008). Due to the altered structure and higher molecular mass it can be easily differentiated from other Epoetins"
Reichel, C., G. Meiner, G. (2010). Erythropoietin and Analogs. In: Doping in Sports: Biochemical Principles, Effects and Analysis. Handbook of Experimental Pharmacology, vol 195. (paywalled).

There was no test for it to begin with, and AFLD caught the riders off guard when one was developed.

 

[Aragon]

Armstrong interview with Bill Maher. At 1:13 into the interview, he talks about how easy it was to cheat & not test positive with EPO. He mentions that EPO has a half-life of ~4 hrs & it was not that difficult to avoid testing positive.

That's funny because there were so many riders during the Armstrong era that tested positive for EPO & it's variants (e.g. CERA, NESP). Was he the only one that knew about the 4 hr half-life? Lol

The rest of the interview is mundane & extraneous on the topic of his doping, IMO.

View: https://youtu.be/rlDKKez4q7o?si=9AM22MvngAdrb3DW

Strong words, because he twice almost has a positive for EPO -- in 2001 (Tour de Suisse) and (IIRC) in the early 2003, when some riders were warned by the UCI that the isoform - ratios in their urine were close to being classified positive for EPO.

The half life is longer with subcutaneous injections vs. intravenous and not everyone knew this, and the EPO - derivatives are very easy to detect because they are a foreign molecule in the body, therefore Michele Ferrari instantly adviced his protegés not to take them.

 

[Aragon]

Look at the US Olympic Cycling teams medal haul in LA in the Russian absence.....Eddy B had everyone blood boosted as it was quasi-legal.
He also had no shyness about recovery aids and their application; all courtesy of his East Euro/Post Soviet coaching knowledge. So YES.

The origins on the 1984 scandal is usually traced not to Eddie B. but to Ed Burke reading an article in The Physician and Sports Medicine summarizing all the research on blood doping written by physiologist Norman Gledhill, which he shared with Eddie B. There was some debate inside the team about the legality of the method before they decided to use it.

 

[Sciatic]

There was no test for it to begin with, and AFLD caught the riders off guard when one was developed.

Thanks, I forgot about that.

 

[Oldermanish]

The origins on the 1984 scandal is usually traced not to Eddie B. but to Ed Burke reading an article in The Physician and Sports Medicine summarizing all the research on blood doping written by physiologist Norman Gledhill, which he shared with Eddie B. There was some debate inside the team about the legality of the method before they decided to use it.

Maybe Ed Burke reminded Eddie B but the Legend of Lasse was known to high school runners in the 70's. Eddie was most definitely an ardent proponent of all things beyond natural so of course he'd pursue a program that was, ahem; totally legal at the time.

 

[Unchained]

Maybe Ed Burke reminded Eddie B but the Legend of Lasse was known to high school runners in the 70's. Eddie was most definitely an ardent proponent of all things beyond natural so of course he'd pursue a program that was, ahem; totally legal at the time.

Funny how Coors Light, Spago, Crest, LA Sheriffs, Rock Racing and many others all had people who were fully gased and nothing ever came of it..still remember Roberto Gaggioli having bad blood w Armstrong.. I laughed so hard almost peed myself!! American cycling needed sunglasses indoors. Eddie's book has lots of references to eating a ton of meat and raw eggs!! Eastern bloc at it's best.. He was a super, super nice man and well after he was done with the in crowd Eddie helped lots of older riders..and there is something to be said that John Howard, worlds fastest man for years, also a great guy and will help anyone on a bicycle.
Beyond natural.. Sure Armstrong would agree . Was Subaru the beginning?

 

[Aragon]

Maybe Ed Burke reminded Eddie B but the Legend of Lasse was known to high school runners in the 70's. Eddie was most definitely an ardent proponent of all things beyond natural so of course he'd pursue a program that was, ahem; totally legal at the time.

Apparently Eddie B didn't oppose the treatment, but it would be nice to have a source for this type of strong allegation.

His name is mentioned once in the article by Les Earnest about the LA84 blood doping scheme with Ed Burke as the main culprit albeit Eddie B was involved.

The reference to Lasse Viren being the source for anyone's blood doping scheme is pretty much meaningless because one could claim that 100 % of teams blood doped after his "legend" became public knowledge. There is nothing unique to Eddie B in it.