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Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

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Funny how Coors Light, Spago, Crest, LA Sheriffs, Rock Racing and many others all had people who were fully gased and nothing ever came of it..still remember Roberto Gaggioli having bad blood w Armstrong.. I laughed so hard almost peed myself!! American cycling needed sunglasses indoors. Eddie's book has lots of references to eating a ton of meat and raw eggs!! Eastern bloc at it's best.. He was a super, super nice man and well after he was done with the in crowd Eddie helped lots of older riders..and there is something to be said that John Howard, worlds fastest man for years, also a great guy and will help anyone on a bicycle.
Beyond natural.. Sure Armstrong would agree . Was Subaru the beginning?
Pre-Subaru...juniors were "warned" that 'roids existed and that USAC did not manage medication. The coaching staff was very informed and there were juniors "suspended" from competition for being on the wrong side of testing. None were dismissed while we had racers on the team but several of the juniors went on to contest GTs; one winning a few. The culture started before Eddie at Subaru and not all there were glowing, either. Can't say the same for all of the MS Masters, though. Half of them came from that Olympic team.

As for sources; there is no upside for anyone that was there to be stepping forward. Eddie has passed, other US coaches were sued for doping their riders without their consent. All very low tech stuff back then and, aside from the Olympics in LA I've never heard the amateur side was involved in any blood boosting or the synthetic versions. They had no money so it wasn't out of purity.
 
Funny how Coors Light, Spago, Crest, LA Sheriffs, Rock Racing and many others all had people who were fully gased and nothing ever came of it..still remember Roberto Gaggioli having bad blood w Armstrong.. I laughed so hard almost peed myself!! American cycling needed sunglasses indoors. Eddie's book has lots of references to eating a ton of meat and raw eggs!! Eastern bloc at it's best.. He was a super, super nice man and well after he was done with the in crowd Eddie helped lots of older riders..and there is something to be said that John Howard, worlds fastest man for years, also a great guy and will help anyone on a bicycle.
Beyond natural.. Sure Armstrong would agree . Was Subaru the beginning?
it was a very un-funny time for clean amateurs hoping to make the next step in US racing. Len Pettyjohn, Carmichael, Och pretty much owned the upward path and a few just went straight to Belgium of France to test the waters. Very un-motivating time for young guys that were prepared to do almost anything to be a pro. The ones that came back hardened by the reality were embarrassed by their naivete'.
 
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it was a very un-funny time for clean amateurs hoping to make the next step in US racing. Len Pettyjohn, Carmichael, Och pretty much owned the upward path and a few just went straight to Belgium of France to test the waters. Very un-motivating time for young guys that were prepared to do almost anything to be a pro. The ones that came back hardened by the reality were embarrassed by their naivete'.
Interesting . . . and sad.
 
...As for testosterone, I had a friend who was prescribed that for a genuine medical condition before 2006. He said it made him much stronger climbing. And this disregards the recovery boost. My friend immediately called BS when Floyd claimed testosterone doesn’t help endurance sport performance.
I never read of Flandis claiming Test "doesn't help endurance sport performance," I read him claiming he didn't like it because it made his legs feel "wooden." All I ever recall hearing him remark was that it wasn't effective for him, and Lance Pharmstrong is living proof that not everyone responds the same way to every medication.

RE: effectiveness of steroids in performance sport, first of all, testosterone doesn't magically make existing muscles stronger, it makes you stronger by promoting the growth of bigger muscles. Take steroids, put in the work, muscles get bigger, bigger muscles make you stronger. If you take steroids tonight and you feel much stronger tomorrow, it isn't the 'Roids, it's placebo effect.

Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids do, by the way, stimulate bone marrow into making more RBCs. So if you take AASs long enough, it will raise your HCT level, and the resulting increased oxygenation of the blood will have an effect that could be mistaken for better power.

Second, Michele Ferrari himself preached that it's better to lose weight than to gain strength (because enhanced strength comes with larger, heavier muscles). Steroids also tend to cause water retention, which is dead weight.

Third, taking steroids alone only can cause performance improvement in the short term because the male body's natural testosterone level is regulated by the HPG axis. If the hypothalamus detects that the testosterone level is below whatever it considers optimal, it directs the pituitary gland to send instructions to the Testes to make more. So if you're taking exogenous Test in sufficient quantities to raise your testosterone levels to above this optimal level, the hypothalamus ceases sending these messages to the pituitary, with the net effect that the Testes shut down (and might suffer atrophy from the inactivity) until testosterone levels have decreased to below optimal.

It is possible to take enough exogenous Test to completely replace the body's entire normal production but in a young man this would take quite a lot of steroid. These performance enhancing doses would be considerably larger than mere therapeutic doses, but such large doses pose the potential problem of aromatisation. Take too much AAS and the body will aromatise (convert) whatever it considers excessive into estrogen. Which not only is counterproductive to the purpose of taking steroids to begin with, it also can cause men to grow breasts (gynecomastia).

However, there are other drugs that can prevent both these limiting problems and make steroid doping more effective. You can bypass dependency of the HPG axis and 'trick' your Testes into continuing their normal testosterone output by taking Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG). The Testes mistake hCG for Lutinizing Hormone (LH), LH being the chemical messenger that the pituitary gland ordinarily would release into the bloodstream as a signal to the Testes to GET TO WORK! hCG is commonly prescribed to both men and women for certain fertility problems and will keep the testes health and fully-functioning despite excessive exogenous Test.

And there are Aromatase Inhibitors (AIs) that allow body-builders and power lifters to walk around with 10x a normal man's testosterone levels without their exogenous Test being aromatised and causing them to grow breasts.

However, now you're talking at a minimum two prohibited substances (AAS & hCG) and possibly a third (AI) in support an effective steroid doping program. Which manifestly increases your chances for getting popped for doping. And the steroids will, in any case, cause you to put on undesirable muscle mass and possibly water weight.

hCG in particular is one component the entire medical world looks for closely in bloodwork because it only occurs naturally in substantial amounts in conjunction with one of two medical conditions: pregnancy and certain cancers. hCG is what causes an early pregnancy test strip to test positive. And even before the cancer diagnosis, Pharmstrong knew he had stratospheric levels of hCG in his blood (because of the testicular cancer) but either he didn't understand the significance or chose to ignore it.

Fourth, the Nazis invented synthetic testosterone in the 1930s. If it were that effective for enhancing cycling performance, why hasn't pro cycling been awash in steroids for the past 90 years? After all, prior to 1966, there was NO drug testing, yet there are no stories of pro cycling being dominated by the steroid users, nor were there ever any cyclists (except maybe the odd sprinter) with a physique like Arnold Schwarzenegger.
 
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I never read of Flandis claiming Test "doesn't help endurance sport performance," I read him claiming he didn't like it because it made his legs feel "wooden." All I ever recall hearing him remark was that it wasn't effective for him, and Lance Pharmstrong is living proof that not everyone responds the same way to every medication.

RE: effectiveness of steroids in performance sport, first of all, testosterone doesn't magically make existing muscles stronger, it makes you stronger by promoting the growth of bigger muscles. Take steroids, put in the work, muscles get bigger, bigger muscles make you stronger. If you take steroids tonight and you feel much stronger tomorrow, it isn't the 'Roids, it's placebo effect.

Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids do, by the way, stimulate bone marrow into making more RBCs. So if you take AASs long enough, it will raise your HCT level, and the resulting increased oxygenation of the blood will have an effect that could be mistaken for better power.

Second, Michele Ferrari himself preached that it's better to lose weight than to gain strength (because enhanced strength comes with larger, heavier muscles). Steroids also tend to cause water retention, which is dead weight.

Third, taking steroids alone only can cause performance improvement in the short term because the male body's natural testosterone level is regulated by the HPG axis. If the hypothalamus detects that the testosterone level is below whatever it considers optimal, it directs the pituitary gland to send instructions to the Testes to make more. So if you're taking exogenous Test in sufficient quantities to raise your testosterone levels to above this optimal level, the hypothalamus ceases sending these messages to the pituitary, with the net effect that the Testes shut down (and might suffer atrophy from the inactivity) until testosterone levels have decreased to below optimal.

It is possible to take enough exogenous Test to completely replace the body's entire normal production but in a young man this would take quite a lot of steroid. These performance enhancing doses would be considerably larger than mere therapeutic doses, but such large doses pose the potential problem of aromatisation. Take too much AAS and the body will aromatise (convert) whatever it considers excessive into estrogen. Which not only is counterproductive to the purpose of taking steroids to begin with, it also can cause men to grow breasts (gynecomastia).

However, there are other drugs that can prevent both these limiting problems and make steroid doping more effective. You can bypass dependency of the HPG axis and 'trick' your Testes into continuing their normal testosterone output by taking Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG). The Testes mistake hCG for Lutinizing Hormone (LH), LH being the chemical messenger that the pituitary gland ordinarily would release into the bloodstream as a signal to the Testes to GET TO WORK! hCG is commonly prescribed to both men and women for certain fertility problems and will keep the testes health and fully-functioning despite excessive exogenous Test.

And there are Aromatase Inhibitors (AIs) that allow body-builders and power lifters to walk around with 10x a normal man's testosterone levels without their exogenous Test being aromatised and causing them to grow breasts.

However, now you're talking at a minimum two prohibited substances (AAS & hCG) and possibly a third (AI) in support an effective steroid doping program. Which manifestly increases your chances for getting popped for doping. And the steroids will, in any case, cause you to put on undesirable muscle mass and possibly water weight.

hCG in particular is one component the entire medical world looks for closely in bloodwork because it only occurs naturally in substantial amounts in conjunction with one of two medical conditions: pregnancy and certain cancers. hCG is what causes an early pregnancy test strip to test positive. And even before the cancer diagnosis, Pharmstrong knew he had stratospheric levels of hCG in his blood (because of the testicular cancer) but either he didn't understand the significance or chose to ignore it.

Fourth, the Nazis invented synthetic testosterone in the 1930s. If it were that effective for enhancing cycling performance, why hasn't pro cycling been awash in steroids for the past 90 years? After all, prior to 1966, there was NO drug testing, yet there are no stories of pro cycling being dominated by the steroid users, nor were there ever any cyclists (except maybe the odd sprinter) with a physique like Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Interesting read, thanks. A note about the final question: the USSR and Soviet bloc countries, the ones most likely to introduce steroids into road racing, didn’t have any cyclists in the pro peloton until the late 1980s (can’t remember exact date), when countries began to allow them to participate as professionals.
 

Floyd Landis & Testosterone-Doping?

The Science of Drug Testing:

Unanswered Questions
in a Mystery Story

by Craig Rusbult, Ph.D.

...Avoiding Oversimplification
Those who don't understand the physiology of pushing-the-limit athletics ask “how could Landis be so weak during Stage 16 and so strong the next day, if he wasn't using drugs?” This question might make sense if we ignore the fact that Landis was consistently strong throughout the tour (pages with details are cited below)* and that external testosterone is typically abused for long-term improvement in muscle strength, not as a "one-day wonder drug" for a quick increase in energy, strength, and performance.

During three weeks on the Tour, Landis was riding as fast (or faster) than almost all of the other top-10 riders in almost every stage. But in Stage 16 something strange happened to him physiologically; probably his body didn't have enough water (he got dehydrated), enough energy (he ran low on glycogen, the "sugar fuel" used by muscles), and/or he got overheated. When the body's physiology gets messed up, it's difficult to operate at the high levels demanded in mountain climbing, and he fell far behind his world-class competitors. The next day, in Stage 17, several times the TV commentators pointed out how he was drinking lots of water, eating lots of food, and pouring water over himself (to cool off), doing all of this to insure that whatever happened in his "bad physiology day" would not happen again in Stage 17.

This variation in performance is not unusual, and other riders sometimes have one bad day and naturally recover the next day.* This could also happen to Landis, so there is no need to say "it was drugs" to explain his dramatic one-day improvement between Stages 16 and 17. (* an example: Oscar Pereiro, who finished second and may now be awarded first, lost 26 minutes in Stage 11 but regained 30 minutes in Stage 13, and rode strongly the other 19 days despite his one very bad day.)

* Here is information (in pages I've linked to) about Stages 16 & 17. Also, there is a detailed table about the "rollercoaster" race (check the third paragraph with "comments" in greenprint) showing that Floyd Landis was the most consistently strong rider throughout the Tour, followed closely by Andreas Kloden....

-----------------------------------------​
It was the first Pharmstrong-less TdF in eight years and the peloton had no Patron, no one to be the grownup when arguing broke out as to when to chase, and how hard. And it was an uncommonly hot day, 30°C (86°F), and FLandis schemed he could use the heat to his advantage. If he and just a few others were off the front, then they could have unfettered access to water. And if the poursuivants were to make best advantage of their numbers, that necessarily would entail limiting their access to water.

AFAIK there are no reliable numbers as to how many water bottles FLandis went through on Stage 17 but I have yet to see a number quoted that was less than 80. Many of them he poured over his head, which was a luxury the other Danger Men could not share in. The other Danger Men, riding in the main peloton, were lucky to get 20. FLandis likely poured more than that many over his head. In the end the peloton simply overestimated their ability to close the gap under those conditions and waited too long to chase in earnest.
 
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Floyd Landis & Testosterone-Doping?

The Science of Drug Testing:

Unanswered Questions
in a Mystery Story

by Craig Rusbult, Ph.D.
It was the first Pharmstrong-less TdF in eight years and the peloton had no Patron, no one to be the grownup when arguing broke out as to when to chase, and how hard. And it was an uncommonly hot day, 30°C (86°F), and FLandis schemed he could use the heat to his advantage. If he and just a few others were off the front, then they could have unfettered access to water. And if the poursuivants were to make best advantage of their numbers, that necessarily would entail limiting their access to water.​

AFAIK there are no reliable numbers as to how many water bottles FLandis went through on Stage 17 but I have yet to see a number quoted that was less than 80. Many of them he poured over his head, which was a luxury the other Danger Men could not share in. The other Danger Men, riding in the main peloton, were lucky to get 20. FLandis likely poured more than that many over his head. In the end the peloton simply overestimated their ability to close the gap under those conditions and waited too long to chase in earnest.
All the years of Floyd jokes and memes in this forum, posters rarely mention the bounce back from the previous day—everyone here knows about jour sans in a GT. The jokes and memes, rather, are re: the audacious solo during which he flew by the early break like a runaway freight train. The article author seems to trying to provide an explanation/rationalization for a an audience not familiar with the pro peloton?

ed. Ah, I see: he wrote this in 2006 trying to substantiate Floyd’s claims of innocence, before Landis’s (and others) doping confessions in the years that followed, including confirmation of testosterone use.
 
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I never read of Flandis claiming Test "doesn't help endurance sport performance," I read him claiming he didn't like it because it made his legs feel "wooden." All I ever recall hearing him remark was that it wasn't effective for him, and Lance Pharmstrong is living proof that not everyone responds the same way to every medication.

RE: effectiveness of steroids in performance sport, first of all, testosterone doesn't magically make existing muscles stronger, it makes you stronger by promoting the growth of bigger muscles. Take steroids, put in the work, muscles get bigger, bigger muscles make you stronger. If you take steroids tonight and you feel much stronger tomorrow, it isn't the 'Roids, it's placebo effect.

Anabolic-Androgenic Steroids do, by the way, stimulate bone marrow into making more RBCs. So if you take AASs long enough, it will raise your HCT level, and the resulting increased oxygenation of the blood will have an effect that could be mistaken for better power.

Second, Michele Ferrari himself preached that it's better to lose weight than to gain strength (because enhanced strength comes with larger, heavier muscles). Steroids also tend to cause water retention, which is dead weight.

Third, taking steroids alone only can cause performance improvement in the short term because the male body's natural testosterone level is regulated by the HPG axis. If the hypothalamus detects that the testosterone level is below whatever it considers optimal, it directs the pituitary gland to send instructions to the Testes to make more. So if you're taking exogenous Test in sufficient quantities to raise your testosterone levels to above this optimal level, the hypothalamus ceases sending these messages to the pituitary, with the net effect that the Testes shut down (and might suffer atrophy from the inactivity) until testosterone levels have decreased to below optimal.

It is possible to take enough exogenous Test to completely replace the body's entire normal production but in a young man this would take quite a lot of steroid. These performance enhancing doses would be considerably larger than mere therapeutic doses, but such large doses pose the potential problem of aromatisation. Take too much AAS and the body will aromatise (convert) whatever it considers excessive into estrogen. Which not only is counterproductive to the purpose of taking steroids to begin with, it also can cause men to grow breasts (gynecomastia).

However, there are other drugs that can prevent both these limiting problems and make steroid doping more effective. You can bypass dependency of the HPG axis and 'trick' your Testes into continuing their normal testosterone output by taking Human Chorionic Gonadotropin (hCG). The Testes mistake hCG for Lutinizing Hormone (LH), LH being the chemical messenger that the pituitary gland ordinarily would release into the bloodstream as a signal to the Testes to GET TO WORK! hCG is commonly prescribed to both men and women for certain fertility problems and will keep the testes health and fully-functioning despite excessive exogenous Test.

And there are Aromatase Inhibitors (AIs) that allow body-builders and power lifters to walk around with 10x a normal man's testosterone levels without their exogenous Test being aromatised and causing them to grow breasts.

However, now you're talking at a minimum two prohibited substances (AAS & hCG) and possibly a third (AI) in support an effective steroid doping program. Which manifestly increases your chances for getting popped for doping. And the steroids will, in any case, cause you to put on undesirable muscle mass and possibly water weight.

hCG in particular is one component the entire medical world looks for closely in bloodwork because it only occurs naturally in substantial amounts in conjunction with one of two medical conditions: pregnancy and certain cancers. hCG is what causes an early pregnancy test strip to test positive. And even before the cancer diagnosis, Pharmstrong knew he had stratospheric levels of hCG in his blood (because of the testicular cancer) but either he didn't understand the significance or chose to ignore it.

Fourth, the Nazis invented synthetic testosterone in the 1930s. If it were that effective for enhancing cycling performance, why hasn't pro cycling been awash in steroids for the past 90 years? After all, prior to 1966, there was NO drug testing, yet there are no stories of pro cycling being dominated by the steroid users, nor were there ever any cyclists (except maybe the odd sprinter) with a physique like Arnold Schwarzenegger.
Disagree. Pro cycling over the years has used a cocktail of drugs that assist both outright performance and recovery. That doesn’t mean they build heavy muscles like Schwarzenegger.

Many pros, including Armstrong, have said testosterone assists cycling performance - especially recovery during stage racing. Also, as I mentioned I had a personal friend who I was riding with at the time of Floyd’s bust. After that stage it was then reported by Floyd’s coach or manager (not sure who) that testosterone only did what you say (are you him?).

My friend said based upon his personal experience with being clinically prescribed patches for a genuine condition that Floyd’s comments that testosterone doesn’t help cycling performance were rubbish. My friend said he felt much stronger climbing with use of patches - he said he had absolutely zero doubts Floyd blatantly cheated throwing caution to the wind - and I believe him. That wasn’t placebo effect.

I think if you have a collapse like Landis did on stage 16 and bounce back the following day to crush everyone - single handedly - that testosterone patches together with his obvious incredible form (supplemented by blood doping) explains this. Stuart O’Grady was in the break Floyd caught that day and said on an Australian 60 minutes interview it was “not normal”.

The year before (2005) Floyd was obviously in the A group when he was staying with Armstrong’s group (Ullrich, Basso, Levi et al) on the hardest climbs in the Pyrenees (eg stage 14) whilst the likes of Cadel Evans lost minutes.
 
Interesting read, thanks. A note about the final question: the USSR and Soviet bloc countries, the ones most likely to introduce steroids into road racing, didn’t have any cyclists in the pro peloton until the late 1980s (can’t remember exact date), when countries began to allow them to participate as professionals.
And had a group of program graduates that won handily; including the Giro in early 90's: Berzin, Tonkov.
 
it was a very un-funny time for clean amateurs hoping to make the next step in US racing. Len Pettyjohn, Carmichael, Och pretty much owned the upward path and a few just went straight to Belgium of France to test the waters. Very un-motivating time for young guys that were prepared to do almost anything to be a pro. The ones that came back hardened by the reality were embarrassed by their naivete'.
💯