Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[hiero2]

As much as I hate to interrupt the fun and games - chill is the new word. Respect it, or lose many posts.

Seriously, keep all this under a little tighter rein. It is loose already, quit trying to make it a bronc heaven.

 

[Boeing]

For such a moral crusader race radio sure lives in a small box

Memo. Rr if you win an argument and your opponent goes away defeated and shuts up but you keep on talking, eventually you end up the loser regardless That simple.

 

[Ferminal]

Someone just figured out Wonderboy's Capital Sports and Entertainment is still managing an American development team.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...ate-armstrongs-stake-in-bontrager-team_287998

I don't know all the UCI rules, but the summary is there's nothing stopping CSE from running the team. It would be nice if USADA could tear that down too.

One comment suggests VN has "an axe to grind." There's still a few out there.

I bet Lance rues not racing under a Belgian license.

 

[gooner]

There is a difference here.

Guys like Jonathan Vaughters and the Garmin boys when they had the chance, came forward and disclosed and exposed everything from their past. The rules state your sentence can be reduced to a quarter of it if you do so and this is a clear incentive for people to do so. I wouldn't criticise guys like the Garmin boys too much as we got rid of not only Lance, but just as importantly Ferrari and Del Moral also. It would have been unforgivable infact had they passed up the opportunity to finally do something good for the sport.

Regadiing the VN piece it does bring up Vino and Riis and I think's it's particularly frustrating to see Vino now involved in the running of Astana. A guy who admitted to nothing on his return and failed to provide any info to the appropriate authorites about his shenanigans. Not just that but we know about his behaviour in LBL and his name was linked as well with the Padua investigation. I don't deny he was an exciting rider but it does still somehow baffle me how he is so revered and idolised by many considering all this and it seems to me his entertainment as a rider gives him a free pass by many which is totally the opposite to the way Lance is held. I find this inconsistent judgement where it's one rule for one and another rule for another.

 

[Race Radio]

I respect you but you are caught up in the guys that told the truth bs. You exposed LA but you have no idea how this will be fixed on a go forward basis. Not by the ex dopers.

It is naive to think it is possible to have a functioning sport with every ex doper out of it. Not possible. Armstrong had his chance to be part of the solution but chose instead to obstruct and try to bring down WADA. He failed. He is banned for life, pretty simple.

The greatest change in the sport over the last 5 years has come from ex-dopers

 

[Dear Wiggo]

The greatest change in the sport over the last 5 years has come from ex-dopers

Could you expand on this? I'd like to understand what you mean.

Specifically: what specifically has changed. and how did ex-dopers bring it about?

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

I wish my brain bleach worked...

I have a feeling that wonderboy will be caught with his pants down in a few more unsavory tails in the upcoming months...

No metaphor here...move along.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

No metaphor here...move along.

'Can we please get back to the ****-munching here....

 

[OnTheDrops]

Lance unblocks Leslie Cohen and Neil Browne. The velonews article last week in which Vaughter's said Lance has been unfairly scapegoated appears to have set a ball in motion.

 

[OnTheDrops]

There is a difference here.

Guys like Jonathan Vaughters and the Garmin boys when they had the chance, came forward and disclosed and exposed everything from their past. The rules state your sentence can be reduced to a quarter of it if you do so and this is a clear incentive for people to do so. I wouldn't criticise guys like the Garmin boys too much as we got rid of not only Lance, but just as importantly Ferrari and Del Moral also. It would have been unforgivable infact had they passed up the opportunity to finally do something good for the sport.

Lance had more to lose in terms of titles, money, reputation and legal problems. Even doing Oprah opened up legal cans of worms. Those who testified against him like vaughter's felt guilty about that. They knew how difficult it was for him.

 

[DirtyWorks]

It is naive to think it is possible to have a functioning sport with every ex doper out of it. Not possible.

Every ex-doper? I agree.

The greatest change in the sport over the last 5 years has come from ex-dopers

The greatest change was athletes skipping their federation and going to USADA. Moreover, if one imagines a scenario where a quieter doper like an Indurain was at the center of some doping scandal, then I doubt anything would have happened.

A select few seemed to have some kind of conscience about it all. The vast majority, Landis, Hamilton, Armstrong, Levi and others aren't particularly bothered by their actions. Put them in a situation where they have to choose between what's expedient and what's right at the sports federation level and we're right back to Hein and Pat.

 

[DirtyWorks]

... it does still somehow baffle me how he is so revered and idolised by many considering all this and it seems to me his entertainment as a rider gives him a free pass by many which is totally the opposite to the way Lance is held. I find this inconsistent judgement where it's one rule for one and another rule for another.

I feel the same way about the warm regards for Levi. Levi was hardly the race animator like a Vino!!!! This is where it seems like the fans have a doping problem.

 

[Oldman]

Lance had more to lose in terms of titles, money, reputation and legal problems. Even doing Oprah opened up legal cans of worms. Those who testified against him like vaughter's felt guilty about that. They knew how difficult it was for him.

Lance's loss is past tense...it is all gone. As for Vaughters or anyone else feeling guilty: they labored under a program run by Lance and his boss. Not many would feel guilt unless they thought they were overpaid. Never met a pro that admitted to being overpaid.
The progressive mea culpas and exorcisms are part of a reset to the sport and it's appropriate that those that can admit their participation in the Grand Compromise (widespread cheating) cycling endured can earn another chance. There will be the usual opportunists in this situation and Vaughters may fall into that class. Lance never will because there doesn't appear to be any compromise in his personal justifications for his behavior. Think Barry Bonds, Carl Lewis, etc. They still dwell in the emotional cult they fabricated and no pity is asked for by those "icons".

 

[OnTheDrops]

I don't know if everybody caught the article.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...s-talking-about-moving-cycling-forward_287358

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

I heard of a similar incident on a highway near Hershey.

 

[Zweistein]

I don't know if everybody caught the article.

http://velonews.competitor.com/2013...s-talking-about-moving-cycling-forward_287358

"Armstrong echoed Vaughters sentiments, saying that the nonstop barrage of partial confessionals, such as this week’s opaque admission from Frenchman Laurent Jalabert, combined with the inconsistent zero-tolerance policies in place at teams like Sky and Orica-GreenEdge, are only damaging the sport by fostering omertà and creating an untenable environment."

Kind of a joke. I think Lance invented the partial confession. Does he think he can reinvent himself every few months?

 

[Puckfiend]

I doubt very seriously that CVV, Tommy D., Levi, Dave Z., and the rest confessed "all". Especially the B.S. about doping stopping in 2006.

 

[blackcat]

it is a doomed errand to flirt with a sociopath.

jv is pretty dumb for a smart man. even if he thinks armstrong suits his aims, and he can shill his own @ss as jv suits armstrongs aims. unedifying tho. even if you wish to co-opt the cancer and livestrong constiuency.

 

[blackcat]

Lance unblocks Leslie Cohen and Neil Browne. The velonews article last week in which Vaughter's said Lance has been unfairly scapegoated appears to have set a ball in motion.

if jv said StrongArm was unfairly scapegoated, that is a double negative. potentially, can be a tautology. but i would like to think of it as a double negative.

 

[blackcat]

A select few seemed to have some kind of conscience about it all. The vast majority, Landis, Hamilton, Armstrong, Levi and others aren't particularly bothered by their actions. Put them in a situation where they have to choose between what's expedient and what's right at the sports federation level and we're right back to Hein and Pat.

but cycling as a professional entertainment sport, inducted such norms about doping, from its outset.

i think it is puritanical to demand athletes be prone on a table to be sacrificed as the doping martyrs. and if you want authentic guilt from a sociopath, it is not possible.

 

[DirtyWorks]

but cycling as a professional entertainment sport, inducted such norms about doping, from its outset.

If it was the case that the bio-passport was actually used like they sell it, the sport would be in a different place. IMHO, there would be more legitimacy about the fundamental premise of the game.

i think it is puritanical to demand athletes be prone on a table to be sacrificed as the doping martyrs.

Implicitly, you are permitting the system to go on in some way such that a doper can remain in the system. This is part of the problem. Little is going to change with the same actors in more powerful roles.

To be clear, I'm not asking for contrition. I'm asking for substantial change. We're not going to get it with a large number of these actors in the sport.

 

[frenchfry]

it is a doomed errand to flirt with a sociopath.

jv is pretty dumb for a smart man. even if he thinks armstrong suits his aims, and he can shill his own @ss as jv suits armstrongs aims. unedifying tho. even if you wish to co-opt the cancer and livestrong constiuency.

This is so true. Many think that underneath the surface a sociopath (or pervers narcissique personality) is a decent person and can be led down the path to goodness. WRONG! If you cross paths with a sociopath you cannot win - run as fast as you can.

 

[Fortyninefourteen]

The reason Lance never went after JV is because Lance was barely smart enough to realize that JV would have handed him his remaining nut on a platter. Ever notice that JV seemed to have been spared through most of this.

This remains the case today, and JV could toy with him like a cat playing with a mouse.

It would be fun to see a day where the 'detente' in place collapses, and Lance hops from landmine to landmine while JV laughs like Dr Evil as he gets his pork chops groomed while filleting a Northern Pike with an electric carving knife..

 

[DirtyWorks]

The reason Lance never went after JV is because Lance was barely smart enough to realize that JV would have handed him his remaining nut on a platter. Ever notice that JV seemed to have been spared through most of this.

I give Wonderboy more credit than that. The guy is able to estimate and manipulate/persuade people extremely well. The visibly non-compliant ones got an overwhelming response.

Both sides of that relationship are calculating. Different calculations, goals, and such, but both social/political climbers. Which, is just one reason why I don't fully trust JV's PR.

And Wonderboy doesn't have to change a thing. According to his world view, time has to pass so people just forget. It's their problem, not his. According to him, he's great. In fact, he's the greatest since Merckx.

 

[ScienceIsCool]

The part of the article (re: Vaughters & Armstrong) that bothered me the most was Mr. Vaughters contention that he and Armstrong entered a pre-existing structure of doping in Europe. To an extent that is true, but it falls apart when you ask "was there also a pre-existing structure of bribery"?

Did everybody and know and play the game of "Sysmex donations"? What about intimidation? Was there a well regimented program of discipline and enforcement against those who wanted to ride clean?

From my perspective, Lance managed to create those out of whole cloth. Figuring in Livestrong, his shady financial dealings, and what must have been a sophisticated drug shipment/financing project, I don't think that it's a stretch that he would have created a "structure of doping" even if none had existed.

He was not a victim of circumstance and he did not play the "game" as it existed. He created new rules and used them to crush anyone in his way. In the same article, Vaughters even recalls Armstrong trying to get him ejected from Slipstream!

I have no idea what Mr. Vaughter's angle is in all this. None at all.

John Swanson