Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[Race Radio]

EPO also carries 4 years the same as transfusions. They are not different in terms of penalty under the new code. Not sure why you would make such an omission.

Procurement of EPO, for example from a pharmacy in Swizterland, would also constitute 4 years. The distribution of the procured EPO would add another 4 years.

12 years right there, under the new code.

What you're putting forward is that there are good people in this world and we'd prefer that are treated differently when it comes to public perception and judgement.

There I agree with you. But this is not a judgment based on earnings alone.

At the end of the day the kings, queens and pawns all end up in the same box.

No, trafficking, and distributing would be a life ban. lance and Johan did both

If you actually read my posts you will see it has nothing to with earnings, not sure why you pretend it was, but with the effort to paint Frankie's participation as the same as Lance and George's . It wasn't, not even close.

 

[thehog]

No, trafficking, and distributing would be a life ban. lance and Johan did both

If you actually read my posts you will see it has nothing to with earnings, not sure why you pretend it was, but with the effort to paint Frankie's participation as the same as Lance and George's . It wasn't, not even close.

It matters little if it's the same. It's still an infraction. As stated distribution of procured EPO could be considered trafficking.

Again what you're putting forward is one person is a better guy than the others because a) he stopped before they did b) didn't profittier to the extent of the others c) is a nice guy whom you most likely know.

All that is fine and it really comes down to the extent and detail of the various omissions under oath.

Public perception is another thing. Often fought out in the press which is what we are seeing now.

Most can see what is clear in this giant mess.

 

[Race Radio]

It matters little if it's the same. It's still an infraction. As stated distribution of procured EPO could be considered trafficking.

Again what you're putting forward is one person is a better guy than the others because a) he stopped before they did b) didn't profittier to the extent of the others c) is a nice guy whom you most likely know.

All that is fine and it really comes down to the extent and detail of the various omissions under oath.

Public perception is another thing. Often fought out in the press which is what we are seeing now.

Most can see what is clear in this giant mess.

I suggest you read what I actually wrote instead of deliberately distorting it

 

[thehog]

I suggest you read what I actually wrote instead of deliberately distorting it

There is no distortion. For the most part I agree with you but this is a discussion not a Race Radio press release; allow people to debate the polemics with you.

What I was doing was correcting your statement in relation to transfusions vs EPO in terms of penalties under the new WADA code. They are the same no different. It's a worthy correction.

I also brought forward that procuring and distributing EPO from Switzerland could also potentially be considered trafficking.

 

[BroDeal]

You didn't read the affidavit did you? of Swart affidavit, or Tyler's book, or any of the other sources that contradict what Lance and George are now saying

I most certainly did read them. You are twisting what Hincapie recently said to advance the Andreu's agenda. You keep using straw men, like Hincapie accusing Andreu of being a drug pusher, when Hincapie said no such thing. All he said is that Andreu knew exactly where to purchase EPO (consistent with his affidavit) and seeing his friend and mentor's use influenced his own decision to step up to EPO (a reasonable and understandable position). You also keep banging on with hair splitting about whether Andreu's doping was as bad as Hincapie's when the only thing Hincapie said is that they were both using back in the day, Andreu stopped earlier than he did, and he could not understand how Andreu could condemn him and the others (a perfectly understandable reaction by someone who feels he is on the receiving end of hypocritical behavior).

You can the Andreus are reading way more into this than is there. It is also pretty funny how underlying all of this is the paranoia that Armstrong is there in the background, plotting and scheming, using Hincapie for his own ends while the same could be said about the LeMond's use of the Andreu's.

 

[D-Queued]

No, trafficking, and distributing would be a life ban. lance and Johan did both

If you actually read my posts you will see it has nothing to with earnings, not sure why you pretend it was, but with the effort to paint Frankie's participation as the same as Lance and George's . It wasn't, not even close.

Even though I agree with you completely that the participation wasn't even close, I have to side with thehog, here.

That is not a condemnation or equilization of Frankie, but rather how the WADA system and the penalties work.

It also deserves a comment on sporting fraud. Why Lance isn't in jail for his transgressions remains one of the biggest mysteries and miscarriages of justice. What Lance did was to knowingly pursue an outright, massively comprehensive, premeditated fraud. What Frankie did was limited to cheating in a race.

George, as we know, was often cited as a bigger hog than the hog, with jokes about how his children might turn out.

There really is no comparison between these three. Oversimplifying (accurately):

Lance was a crook
George was a role model for Timothy Leary
Frankie cheated

Dave.

 

[Race Radio]

I most certainly did read them. You are twisting what Hincapie recently said to advance the Andreu's agenda. You keep using straw men, like Hincapie accusing Andreu of being a drug pusher, when Hincapie said no such thing. All he said is that Andreu knew exactly where to purchase EPO (consistent with his affidavit) and seeing his friend and mentor's use influenced his own decision to step up to EPO (a reasonable and understandable position). You also keep banging on with hair splitting about whether Andreu's doping was as bad as Hincapie's when the only thing Hincapie said is that they were both using back in the day, Andreu stopped earlier than he did, and he could not understand how Andreu could condemn him and the others (a perfectly understandable reaction by someone who feels he is on the receiving end of hypocritical behavior).

You can the Andreus are reading way more into this than is there. It is also pretty funny how underlying all of this is the paranoia that Armstrong is there in the background, plotting and scheming, using Hincapie for his own ends while the same could be said about the LeMond's use of the Andreu's.

Nope.

In his affidavit George talks about people talking openly about EPO, about his teammate Swart saying everyone was using it, Ferrari talking about how it was safe, about how Lance saying the team needed to get on EPO. The article ignores all of this and paints a different picture, that George used because his mentor did......that was never mentioned in his affidavit.

Unlike what George says Frankie was not part of the "Whole System" at USPS. Not even close. Tyler made this clear in his book and others teammates have backed this up.

Armstrong has been shopping this same nonsense for months to Journalists who saw through it. He introduced this "Journalist" to George, she bought it.

 

[red_flanders]

One major difference that gets played down by some of you is that Frankie confessed and owned up years earlier than the duo of GH/LA without being squeezed into a corner by the law. This speaks to me of possessing higher moral and ethical standards.. while the other cowards sat silently and reaped financial reward and recognition.

I agree with you.

No one here is ever going to agree on one opinion but the facts are out there .. trying to paint Frankie as deep into the sh!!t as LA and Georgie are just trying to perpetuate a twisted personal agenda..

If you're attributing this to me, you have a massive misunderstanding of what I have written on the topic. I can't imagine where you would get this idea except from the strawmen others have been making about my posts.

Read what is written, people. Stop brining crap and assumptions into your responses.

 

[thehog]

Even though I agree with you completely that the participation wasn't even close, I have to side with thehog, here.

That is not a condemnation or equilization of Frankie, but rather how the WADA system and the penalties work.

It also deserves a comment on sporting fraud. Why Lance isn't in jail for his transgressions remains one of the biggest mysteries and miscarriages of justice. What Lance did was to knowingly pursue an outright, massively comprehensive, premeditated fraud. What Frankie did was limited to cheating in a race.

George, as we know, was often cited as a bigger hog than the hog, with jokes about how his children might turn out.

There really is no comparison between these three. Oversimplifying (accurately):

Lance was a crook
George was a role model for Timothy Leary
Frankie cheated

Dave.

Putting this into landscape mode for a moment; if Frankie was able to accept the new money and contract at a new team he would still be faced with the "doping dilemma" he experienced at USPS. He would have either had to dope again to justify his new salary or have his legs ripped off and dropped from the peloton (see Vaughters at CA). My belief is that he wouldn't have wanted to dope and sadly faced the same reality he found at USPS which would be to end his cycling career.

It should be noted that the new contract offer on higher value was based on his doped performances.

In relation to the transfusion question it's not one Frankie had to answer. When he rode EPO was undetectable. It may have been a choice he had to make if he rode on past 2001. Logistically EPO is a lot more easy to transport and preserve than blood.

The seediness and sickness in all of this is the way Lance and Johan made sure the guy not only ever rode professionally again but never worked in cycling. And that vendetta went on and on and on.

Which is really the point RR should be making. Frankie like many others faced all of those realities but no one else like Lance went after the few who turned the page and wanted cycling not have to that choice.

Frankie by his own admission was just like the rest. It was the nastiness and the knife slicing from Lance that was the crime and was so hurtful to many.

There's no way back from here for Armstrong. Taking to the Detroit Times won't ripple beyond Internet forums. He's stirring the pot as he always done but on a much lesser scale.

I'd just leave Lance to obscurity. Reacting to his muses only gives him more light to feed on. He's a gremlin!

 

[BroDeal]

Nope.

In his affidavit George talks about people talking openly about EPO, about his teammate Swart saying everyone was using it, Ferrari talking about how it was safe, about how Lance saying the team needed to get on EPO. The article ignores all of this and paints a different picture, that George used because his mentor did......that was never mentioned in his affidavit.

Again, you are reading more into Hincapie's statements that is actually there. From the article:

“Frankie was my mentor in the peloton,” Hincapie says, referring to the the group of cyclists he rode with. “For me, it was a powerful moment that I won’t forget. It was like, ‘Oh, now I’m going to have to do that, too.’ It’s not like one of those rumors or the whispers you hear. When you actually see it and your good friend is doing it and it’s someone you look up to, it really hits you. Not that I’m blaming Frankie.”

Hincapie does not say he used because Andreu was using. He simply states that it had an impact on him, that it was a concrete realization that this was where he was headed.

Unlike what George says Frankie was not part of the "Whole System" at USPS. Not even close. Tyler made this clear in his book and others teammates have backed this up.

Nope. Hincapie says Andreu was part of the "whole system". Period. There is no indication that he meant the system at USPS. It is more likely he is referring to the whole system of doping throughout the sport. Once again you are seeing things that are not there.

Let's quote the article, where the journalist writes that Hincapie was referring to the doping in cycling rather than doping specifically at UPSP.

&#8220]says of doping in the sport.[/b] “Once he left cycling, he was very opinionated about the system, as was Betsy. For me, it was hard to accept that. It was hard to understand why he was so opinionated about it when he was part of it.

 

[Berzin]

There is no distortion when one realizes Hincapie has been doping since he was a teenager, way before he began receiving "extract of cortisone" injections from Chris Carmichael on the US National Team.

Now he pretends that Frankie Andreu was the driving motivating force behind his doping as a pro. That is the insinuation from his overall tone in the article, which is patently false.

The only reason he wasn't using EPO earlier is because this was the one item that could not be procured from his native Colombia in the early 1990's.

There are no "links" to this information. This is something I know from direct sources.

 

[DirtyWorks]

Nope.

In his affidavit George talks about people talking openly about EPO, about his teammate Swart saying everyone was using it, Ferrari talking about how it was safe, about how Lance saying the team needed to get on EPO. The article ignores all of this and paints a different picture, that George used because his mentor did......that was never mentioned in his affidavit.

Unlike what George says Frankie was not part of the "Whole System" at USPS. Not even close. Tyler made this clear in his book and others teammates have backed this up.

Armstrong has been shopping this same nonsense for months to Journalists who saw through it. He introduced this "Journalist" to George, she bought it.

The bolded is my issue with the new Hincapie claims. They don't fit his affidavit in any way. When Landis was making claims, they fit many bits already known.

The decision to do an interview when he was far better off remaining silent is at minimum strange.

 

[Race Radio]

Hincapie does not say he used because Andreu was using.

Dude, you are being too obvious.....From the article

‘Oh, now I’m going to have to do that, too.’

 

[DirtyWorks]

There is no distortion when one realizes Hincapie has been doping since he was a teenager, way before he began receiving the "extract of cortisone" injections from Chris Carmichael on the US National Team.

Now he pretends that Frankie Andreu was the driving motivating force behind his doping. That is the insinuation from his overall tone in the article, which is patently false.

The only reason he wasn't using EPO earlier is because this was the one item that could not be procured from his native Colombia in the early 1990's.

There are no "links" to this information. This is something I know from direct sources.

Ding! Ding! Ding!

 

[Race Radio]

Steve Tilford's take

http://stevetilford.com/2014/02/03/...snt-make-him-a-better-person-george-hincapie/

I don’t think it is in his best interest to go on record and slam Frankie Andreu.

Frankie is one of the good guys in this whole mess. He got sick of lying to his friends and family, quit racing in Europe and then came clean publicly, without having to be threatened by legal means to do so, as George was.

So yes George, that does make Frankie a “better person” in this regard

Frankie lost his job at Trek, was the recipient of a smear campaign within the professional ranks of the sport and suffered some hard times. Just for telling the truth. The truth about himself. Nothing about Lance, just himself.

. It seems to me that he as much in denial, and as arrogant, as when Lance tweeted the photo of hanging out in Austin with his 7 yellow jerseys from the Tour.

These guys just don’t get it at all. If they are pointing fingers, they need to be pointing more back at themselves and like Lance implied, take some responsibility for their own actions.

 

[mewmewmew13]

There is no distortion when one realizes Hincapie has been doping since he was a teenager, way before he began receiving "extract of cortisone" injections from Chris Carmichael on the US National Team.

Now he pretends that Frankie Andreu was the driving motivating force behind his doping as a pro. That is the insinuation from his overall tone in the article, which is patently false.

The only reason he wasn't using EPO earlier is because this was the one item that could not be procured from his native Colombia in the early 1990's.

There are no "links" to this information. This is something I know from direct sources.

FINALLY!
Berzin could you please send a link to this post to the author of that stupid article. Maybe she will get the hook and investigate this a bit further and add to her base knowledge!

 

[mewmewmew13]

Steve Tilford's take

http://stevetilford.com/2014/02/03/...snt-make-him-a-better-person-george-hincapie/

He got this squarely on target as well. Good for Tilford..too bad the general public doesn't get to see this side of journalism…only the uneducated for the most part. :/

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Armstrong gets angry after Milan San Remo and says the team needs to start using EPO

Key point, he did not state in his affidavit that Lance said "The team has to get on EPO"

You didn't read the affidavit did you?

Yes, he did. He not only read it, but linked to it, and understood what was written there.

George's exact words

He said, in substance, that he did not want to get crushed any more and something needed to be done. I understood that to mean the team had to take EPO

In his affidavit George talks about people talking openly about EPO, about his teammate Swart saying everyone was using it, Ferrari talking about how it was safe, about how Lance saying the team needed to get on EPO. The article ignores all of this and paints a different picture, that George used because his mentor did......that was never mentioned in his affidavit.

Wrong. NOWHERE does George write that Lance said, "the team has to get on EPO".

NOWHERE.

Even in the exact words of George that you quoted, there is NOTHING that says, "Lance said - the team has to get on EPO".

What George DOES say is, "I understodd that to mean (ie he interpreted it to mean) the team had to get on EPO".

This has nothing to do with who is the badder person, or who got / made the team to take EPO. Nothing at all.

It is simply reading comprehension.

Night Rider got it right.

 

[Race Radio]

It is simply reading comprehension.

Yup, very simple.....not sure why you can't understand it.

George Hincapie Affidavit
He said, in substance, that he did not want to get crushed any more and something needed to be done. I understood that to mean the team had to take EPO

Stephen Swart Affidavit
Lance Armstrong was leading the conversation and strongly stated that the riders who were in line to ride the Tour de France that year needed to be on an EPO program

The guy pushing the team to get on EPO was lance, not Frankie. It is revisionist history for George now to say the reason he started taking EPO was because Frankie was using it. In his affidavit he spells out very clearly the various influences that led him to make that decision. "Because Frankie was using it" was not one of them

 

[BroDeal]

Dude, you are being too obvious.....From the article

‘Oh, now I’m going to have to do that, too.’

Dude, you are applying your agenda to your interpretation of what Hincapie said.

You are interpreting it as, "Oh, now I'm going to have to dope like Frankie."

It is more likely that Hincapie meant, "Oh, I am going to have to use EPO in addition to what I am already doing." Since that part of the article was specifically about EPO use, that is the most reasonable interpretation. Or, taking into account what he said and what we know was being used at Motorola, "Oh, all the scuttlebutt I have heard was true. I really am going to have to start on EPO in addition to the corticosteroids and whatnot that I am already using. That is scary step up."

 

[Dear Wiggo]

Yup, very simple.....not sure why you can't understand it.

I can. You, however, are so far removed from the reality of what has been written, highlighting incomplete sentences as to look dishonest.

He said, in substance, that he did not want to get crushed any more and something needed to be done. I understood that to mean the team had to take EPO

"I understood that to mean" does not say "Lance said". In fact, the entire quote is George's interpretation, and not what Lance said to begin with - "He said, in substance" means George is paraphrasing, but something as simple as "the team has to take EPO" would be memorable and easily written, but is not what George wrote. "Something needed to be done" is what he did write.

The guy pushing the team to get on EPO was lance, not Frankie.

Again with the reading comprehension problems. Here is what I said:

This has nothing to do with who is the badder person, or who got / made the team to take EPO. Nothing at all.

It is revisionist history for George now to say the reason he started taking EPO was because Frankie was using it. In his affidavit he spells out very clearly the various influences that led him to make that decision. "Because Frankie was using it" was not one of them

As I already said, very clearly: this point of clarification about what George wrote in his affidavit has nothing to do with anything else but his affidavit.

Forget the article, and Frankie and Swart's affidavit - all irrelevant to this one single point. Just focus for starters on what George wrote in his affidavit. He did not say, anywhere "Lance said the team has to get on EPO".

NOWHERE.

 

[Race Radio]

focus for starters on what George wrote in his affidavit. He did not say, anywhere "Lance said the team has to get on EPO".

NOWHERE.

It may not be clear to you but it was clear to George that Lance wanted the team to get on EPO, and that is what he wrote in his affidavit.

You, however, are so far removed from the reality of what has been written, highlighting incomplete sentences as to look dishonest.

 

[Netserk]

It may not be clear to you but it was clear to George that Lance wanted the team to get on EPO, and that is what he wrote in his affidavit.

So you agree that Lance didn't explicitly say it?

 

[Race Radio]

Dude, you are applying your agenda to your interpretation of what Hincapie said.

You are interpreting it as, "Oh, now I'm going to have to dope like Frankie."

It is more likely that Hincapie meant, "Oh, I am going to have to use EPO in addition to what I am already doing." Since that part of the article was specifically about EPO use, that is the most reasonable interpretation. Or, taking into account what he said and what we know was being used at Motorola, "Oh, all the scuttlebutt I have heard was true. I really am going to have to start on EPO in addition to the corticosteroids and whatnot that I am already using. That is scary step up."

Wait, YOU are accusing me of having an agenda? Ha, that is rich. I am far from the only person who interpreted this as an attempt to smear Frankie as Tilford said

These guys just don’t get it at all. If they are pointing fingers, they need to be pointing more back at themselves and like Lance implied, take some responsibility for their own actions

Lance has been trying to advance this nonsense for months. He rambles to reporters about Frankie the pusher and tells them call George for the "Real" story. George usually mumbles some nonsense. Lance must be happy to see some spin finally got out.

Regardless. Your buddy George is getting hammered by this. I expect he will do some sort of "clarification" of his comments to make his comments even more grey.

 

[Race Radio]

So you agree that Lance didn't explicitly said it?

It was explicit enough to George and Swart for them to put in their affidavits