Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[rogerg]

 

[Race Radio]

Key point, he did not state in his affidavit that Lance said "The team has to get on EPO"

You didn't read the affidavit did you?

George's exact words

George Hincapie Affidavit
He said, in substance, that he did not want to get crushed any more and something needed to be done. I understood that to mean the team had to take EPO

Swart says the same thing. The day after telling George the team needed to get on EPO he went on a ride with Swart and

Stephen Swart Affidavit
Lance Armstrong was leading the conversation and strongly stated that the riders who were in line to ride the Tour de France that year needed to be on an EPO program

The guy pushing the team to get on EPO was lance, not Frankie.

 

[Race Radio]

Really?
You think that "most people" care about how long and how many times these guys were doping?

Yes, most can see the difference between a rider whose career was defined by dope and one who used a handful of times.

 

[gooner]

Remember Brian Smith at the time of the USADA report.

But Lance wasn’t happy. He’d won the world road race title the previous year but was getting beaten. There were guys in the peloton he just couldn’t live with and what you have to understand about Lance is that he is a winner. He has to win and he could not handle losing.

That year Evgeni Berzin won the Giro and Marco Pantani emerged on the scene, winning a couple of stages.

So, as we’re riding side by side, the conversation turns to the subject of performance-enhancing drugs. He wants to know what I think. Did I think everyone was on them? Was the only way to beat them to join them? Would I take them?

My dad was a Scottish international cyclist and before I turned pro he sat me down and made me promise that I would never fall into that world, that I would never take drugs.

I told Lance the story and told him I could never let down my dad. I’d rather fail as a cyclist than do that. We rode on.

Two weeks later, I was called to a meeting with Jim Ochowicz, who played a big part in Lance’s career and at the time was Motorola team manager. Jim told me I would not be getting a new contract for the following season. I was out.

I will never know what Lance was getting at that day. Was he seeing if I would be part of his ‘team’ or was I simply one of a number of people he was sounding out?

But I have often wondered if saying yes to drugs on that ride would have made all the difference. Would he have kept me on the team? Would I have had a different career? Would I have been more successful, in terms of results as well as financially? I certainly don’t think it helped me, saying no to Lance that day.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...rian-Smith-told-cyclist-hed-drugs-sacked.html

 

[ChewbaccaD]

Lance denied history and aggressively defended his lie.

His real history and lie were exposed.

Now Lance is trying to re-write his history and defend his lie.

SSDD

 

[gillan1969]

Say what you want, there all as guilty as the other one. If using PEDs is cheating then they all cheated, as GH said just because you quit before the others make you no less guilty.

yes, but if you stop of your own volition, rather than being caught or subpoenaed (a la D. Millar or the USPS boys) then in a sport and era so rich in doping you will probably get a bit of respect......

 

[Race Radio]

Remember Brian Smith at the time of the USADA report.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/ot...rian-Smith-told-cyclist-hed-drugs-sacked.html

This is why Lance is seeking out reporters with no connection to cycling. None of them have ever heard of Smith, Swart, etc. They just swallow his BS whole and regurgitate it without question

 

[andy1234]

Yes, most can see the difference between a rider whose career was defined by dope and one who used a handful of times.

How many times is a handful of times?
2? 5? 10? 20?

I'm assuming you know exactly how many times he doped? What he used? Which races? how much he earned as a result?

Armstrong was an a55hole who doped, Andreau was a nice guy who doped.
So f***ing what. On a purely doping level, they are one and the same.

Making a distinction, based upon the effectiveness of the doping, and the level of results achieved, is simply bizarre.

 

[ChewbaccaD]

How many times is a handful of times?
2? 5? 10? 20?

I'm assuming you know exactly how many times he doped? What he used? Which races? how much he earned as a result?

Armstrong was an a55hole who doped, Andreau was a nice guy who doped.
So f***ing what. On a purely doping level, they are one and the same.

Making a distinction, based upon the effectiveness of the doping, and the level of results achieved, is simply bizarre.

You thing he's changed?

 

[Race Radio]

Making a distinction, based upon the effectiveness of the doping, and the level of results achieved, is simply bizarre.

I suggest you read what I wrote. The difference is the level of participation. To pretend they were equal is simply bizarre. Even Armstrong would laugh at the suggestion. He had talked several times about the different levels of doping, as did Tyler.

 

[andy1234]

You thing he's changed?

Nope.
10 chars

 

[red_flanders]

I suggest you read what I wrote. The difference is the level of participation. To pretend they were equal is simply bizarre. Even Armstrong would laugh at the suggestion. He had talked several times about the different levels of doping, as did Tyler.

No one thinks they doped the same amount and everyone gets that in addition to doping Armstrong was a major scumbag and ringleader. What people are saying is that Frankie was a cheater as well and therefore has little moral high ground on that topic.

Frankie agrees:

"You can't justify it," Frankie said to the Detroit Free Press, in a separate article. "And so for me, that was hard. What I did was wrong, but at the time, I didn't realize it was wrong. I was just doing it."

"I'm just as guilty as some of the others. Even though I didn't do near as much as a lot of the other guys did, which is a crazy amount of PEDs. If you go in and rob a bank for a nickel or you go in and rob a bank for a million dollars with grenades and firearms and you kill people, you're still both bank robbers. It's just one person did it to the extreme. But you're both still considered bank robbers," Andreu said.

Of course people are still arguing about points the other people aren't making.

 

[andy1234]

I suggest you read what I wrote. The difference is the level of participation. To pretend they were equal is simply bizarre. Even Armstrong would laugh at the suggestion. He had talked several times about the different levels of doping, as did Tyler.

Well what's the cut off point?
Doping once is acceptable, twice isn't?
Doping once but not winning is more acceptable than doping once, and taking home the gold?

Or is it he products used?
EPO only? tsk tsk...
EPO and Blood transfusions? naughty naughty...

Or is it the doctor that prescribes it, or the sheer volume of dope you take, or how sophisticated it is?

How about if you are a conservative doper, but only because you cant afford it? Is that better? Or if you are a full on dope hound, but you have nice manners? Is that more acceptable?

WADA should really be clearer about this.

 

[andy1234]

No one thinks they doped the asme amount and everyone gets that in addition to doping Armstrong was a major scumbag and ringleader. What people are saying is that Frankie was a cheater as well and therefore has little moral high ground on that topic.

Frankie agrees:



Of course people are still arguing about points the other people aren't making.

Frankie has moral high ground by Proxy.
It's a neat trick.

 

[gillan1969]

Frankie has moral high ground by Proxy.
It's a neat trick.

no, he has the moral high ground because he stopped PEDS before he was forced to and he stood out against Armstrong before he was forced to

you may see a theme emerging.......

 

[aphronesis]

"You can't justify it," Frankie said to the Detroit Free Press, in a separate article. "And so for me, that was hard. What I did was wrong, but at the time, I didn't realize it was wrong. I was just doing it."

Someone care to define wrong here?
What, he had to get married and turn forty before gaining clarity?

As I recall, most 13 year olds in sport were already aware of the possible arguments of "wrong" re. PEDs.

 

[Race Radio]

Of course people are still arguing about points the other people aren't making.

Lance are George are certainly trying to pretend that Frankie was the same as them. He wasn't

 

[BroDeal]

Your interpretation of George's affidavit is not quite correct.

Your first two points are ok, they relate to paragraph 25 and 26.

The bolded part no. Refer 27. Lance said "this is bull****, people are using staff" and "we are getting killed" paraphrasing he said something needed to be done and I don't want to get crushed anymore.

George understood that to mean we need to get on the EPO. Key point, he did not state in his affidavit that Lance said "The team has to get on EPO"

Paragraph 30 "Frankie states he has experimented with EPO and told me how to obtain it in Switzerland" and further adds we all start using it at this time.

A little bit different picture to how you state it and clear how the initial supply chain occurred.

https://d3epuodzu3wuis.cloudfront.net/Hincapie,+George+Affidavit.pdf

So what we have established here is that what Hincapie is saying now matches his affidavit. There is the addition of detail about what Hincapie felt and what influenced him. As long as people stick to what was actually said and stop twisting the words or looking for an Armstrong backed plot then this is much adieu about nothing.

 

[zingone]

You are assuming there is nothing more then what has already been discussed.

There is no reason to accuse me of being uncivil, unless you are trying again to provoke a conflict.

Funny, if someone said GH/LA had something on FA or anyone else you endorse, you'd immediately call it into question. Oh wait, you already have.

 

[red_flanders]

Lance are George are certainly trying to pretend that Frankie was the same as them. He wasn't

You clipped it, so let me re-iterate Frankie's slightly more nuanced view:

"I'm just as guilty as some of the others. Even though I didn't do near as much as a lot of the other guys did, which is a crazy amount of PEDs. If you go in and rob a bank for a nickel or you go in and rob a bank for a million dollars with grenades and firearms and you kill people, you're still both bank robbers. It's just one person did it to the extreme. But you're both still considered bank robbers," Andreu said.

 

[andy1234]

Lance are George are certainly trying to pretend that Frankie was the same as them. He wasn't

How so?
He only wanted to get a little bit pregnant?

 

[mewmewmew13]

You clipped it, so let me re-iterate Frankie's slightly more nuanced view:

One major difference that gets played down by some of you is that Frankie confessed and owned up years earlier than the duo of GH/LA without being squeezed into a corner by the law. This speaks to me of possessing higher moral and ethical standards.. while the other cowards sat silently and reaped financial reward and recognition.

No one here is ever going to agree on one opinion but the facts are out there .. trying to paint Frankie as deep into the sh!!t as LA and Georgie are just trying to perpetuate a twisted personal agenda.

The sooner you accept the fact that there is no such thing as an internet hero then maybe we can drop this waste of space.

 

[Race Radio]

WADA should really be clearer about this.

They are. After years of pushing last year WADA adopted a new code that includes harsher sanctions for transfusions, 4 years. They have already had longer penalties like 4 years for helping cover up a doping program and life for trafficking and organizing a program, like Lance and Johan did.

It is obvious to most, including WADA, that there is a huge difference between what Frankie did and what Lance did.

 

[Race Radio]

So what we have established here is that what Hincapie is saying now matches his affidavit. There is the addition of detail about what Hincapie felt and what influenced him. As long as people stick to what was actually said and stop twisting the words or looking for an Armstrong backed plot then this is much adieu about nothing.

You didn't read the affidavit did you? of Swart affidavit, or Tyler's book, or any of the other sources that contradict what Lance and George are now saying

 

[thehog]

They are. After years of pushing last year WADA adopted a new code that includes harsher sanctions for transfusions, 4 years. They have already had longer penalties like 4 years for helping cover up a doping program and life for trafficking and organizing a program, like Lance and Johan did.

It is obvious to most, including WADA, that there is a huge difference between what Frankie did and what Lance did.

EPO also carries 4 years the same as transfusions. They are not different in terms of penalty under the new code. Not sure why you would make such an omission.

Procurement of EPO, for example from a pharmacy in Swizterland, would also constitute 4 years. The distribution of the procured EPO would add another 4 years.

12 years right there, under the new code.

What you're putting forward is that there are good people in this world and we'd prefer that are treated differently when it comes to public perception and judgement.

There I agree with you. But this is not a judgment based on earnings alone.

At the end of the day the kings, queens and pawns all end up in the same box.