Official Lance Armstrong Thread: Part 3 (Post-Confession)

[DirtyWorks]

Beautiful, absolutely beautiful. True colors shining through there. If there is anyone who can possibly support lance after reading that they are, in his own words, f***ing dumb.

One of the things that has always mystified me is how obvious Wonderboy's contempt for the believers was when the fraud was in full swing. I'm not sure how so many people didn't see it because it was always there. Always.

 

[MarkvW]

One of the things that has always mystified me is how obvious Wonderboy's contempt for the believers was when the fraud was in full swing. I'm not sure how so many people didn't see it because it was always there. Always.

Brings me back to the rich Canadian cancer patsies who paid 10K to ride with him, and ended up with a glimpse.

 

[86TDFWinner]

Levi is starting a new team tentatively called "Sycophant Bottle Carriers-R-Us." He's recruiting on another thread. Fertile ground.

Will their mascot be a Giraffe named Geoffrey too?

 

[frenchfry]

Brings me back to the rich Canadian cancer patsies who paid 10K to ride with him, and ended up with a glimpse.

They paid $35K to ride with him, of which they received a tax receipt for only $25K because the other $10K went directly into Armstrong's pocket and not to any cancer charity.

Apparently "ride with him" was not the exact term either because he took off from the start (with Hincapie) and they basically did the ride on their own except for a few that could hang on.

 

[RobbieCanuck]

One of the things that has always mystified me is how obvious Wonderboy's contempt for the believers was when the fraud was in full swing. I'm not sure how so many people didn't see it because it was always there. Always.

I am mystified why it took so long to uncover the truth? Were they just so good at covering it up, or marketing the lie, or enforcing omerta, or threatening people or what? In the Reasoned Decision you have 12 former team mates spilling their guts, but not until 2012 and most of them only after a subpoena or a deal. Surely the Festina affair alerted the UCI, the ASO, the French authorities and ADA as to the seriousness of the problem.

 

[Briant_Gumble]

One of the things that has always mystified me is how obvious Wonderboy's contempt for the believers was when the fraud was in full swing. I'm not sure how so many people didn't see it because it was always there. Always.

I agree, clearly not grateful to those who funded his purportedly $120,000,000 fortune.

It was obvious on Oprah when he mentioned the "true believers", I can't believe he used a clinic term.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

One of the things that has always mystified me is how obvious Wonderboy's contempt for the believers was when the fraud was in full swing. I'm not sure how so many people didn't see it because it was always there. Always.

Well, that's the thing, they were 'true believers', they didn't question it.

And I will add - that suggesting it was "obvious" is revisionist history, and it actually downplays the scale and deviousness of the deceit.

If people did suspect LA doped, they had a hard search to find the real info. If you relied on the traditional or main stream media, which most do, then you were getting the spin and myth.

 

[Benotti69]

I am mystified why it took so long to uncover the truth? Were they just so good at covering it up, or marketing the lie, or enforcing omerta, or threatening people or what? In the Reasoned Decision you have 12 former team mates spilling their guts, but not until 2012 and most of them only after a subpoena or a deal.

Because the federal government got involved and that scared people who couldn't afford lobbyists on capitol hill

Surely the Festina affair alerted the UCI, the ASO, the French authorities and ADA as to the seriousness of the problem.

All these are part of the problem, they all played some part, ignoring at best or enabling art worst, the doping in the sport.

RCS recently announced something along the lines of their doctors would not report doping on the Giro. They dont care about doping, all they care about is their product, the race. Doping stories also helps promote their product.

 

[MarkvW]

I am mystified why it took so long to uncover the truth? Were they just so good at covering it up, or marketing the lie, or enforcing omerta, or threatening people or what? In the Reasoned Decision you have 12 former team mates spilling their guts, but not until 2012 and most of them only after a subpoena or a deal. Surely the Festina affair alerted the UCI, the ASO, the French authorities and ADA as to the seriousness of the problem.

USPS/Discovery is not an anomaly. It represents the norm. The pro peloton never regards doping as cheating (look at Floyd's statements,/for example). You don't see any pro teams complaining about doping behavior, except the occasional vague allusion or holier-than-thou statement made after somebody has gotten caught. More importantly, you don't see any meaningful antidoping initiatives coming from the teams--those that we've seen are just PR.

The "not a level playing field" argument that gets hammered home here by the groupthinkers is a good explanation only for individual cyclists. But cycling is, they tell me, a team sport. When it comes to teams, it was a level playing field. Each team had an even ability to populate its team with the best EPO-responding racers. Each team had an even ability to "donate Sysmex machines" to the UCI.

Tygart got lucky. Floyd snitched and got a federal criminal investigation started. The other domestiques were almost surely on the record under oath by the time they gave their USADA declarations. They weren't going to contradict themselves under. That kind of luck doesn't come around very often. Omerta makes it so hard to catch the dopers.

 

[Oldman]

USPS/Discovery is not an anomaly. It represents the norm. The pro peloton never regards doping as cheating (look at Floyd's statements,/for example). You don't see any pro teams complaining about doping behavior, except the occasional vague allusion or holier-than-thou statement made after somebody has gotten caught. More importantly, you don't see any meaningful antidoping initiatives coming from the teams--those that we've seen are just PR.

The "not a level playing field" argument that gets hammered home here by the groupthinkers is a good explanation only for individual cyclists. But cycling is, they tell me, a team sport. When it comes to teams, it was a level playing field. Each team had an even ability to populate its team with the best EPO-responding racers. Each team had an even ability to "donate Sysmex machines" to the UCI.

Tygart got lucky. Floyd snitched and got a federal criminal investigation started. The other domestiques were almost surely on the record under oath by the time they gave their USADA declarations. They weren't going to contradict themselves under. That kind of luck doesn't come around very often. Omerta makes it so hard to catch the dopers.

Well Discovery was clearly not playing on a level field....Salvodelli claimed to never "see organized doping". What other team could field a blind rider capable of winning a Grand Tour? They clearly had something going on...

 

[Dr. Maserati]

USPS/Discovery is not an anomaly. It represents the norm. The pro peloton never regards doping as cheating (look at Floyd's statements,/for example). You don't see any pro teams complaining about doping behavior, except the occasional vague allusion or holier-than-thou statement made after somebody has gotten caught. More importantly, you don't see any meaningful antidoping initiatives coming from the teams--those that we've seen are just PR.

The "not a level playing field" argument that gets hammered home here by the groupthinkers is a good explanation only for individual cyclists. But cycling is, they tell me, a team sport. When it comes to teams, it was a level playing field. Each team had an even ability to populate its team with the best EPO-responding racers. Each team had an even ability to "donate Sysmex machines" to the UCI.

A level playing field is not the ability to do something.
It is that everyone does it, the same.

And there are consequences if you are caught for doing so.

Tygart got lucky. Floyd snitched and got a federal criminal investigation started. The other domestiques were almost surely on the record under oath by the time they gave their USADA declarations. They weren't going to contradict themselves under. That kind of luck doesn't come around very often. Omerta makes it so hard to catch the dopers.

Ya, you could say that Tygart 'got lucky' because the Feds were (already) investigating.
But that actually shows how large the fraud was and how much it took to get a sanction and expose the "fraudulent concealment".

 

[Nicko.]

According to the Bro narrative, he was just one of the guys and followed orders - so we can assume the lawyers made the decision in this case.

According to the haters, Armstrong was the domineering head honcho, so he would have made the decision without listening to anyone.

The truth may, or may not, lie in between the two scenarios.

I'm trying to grasp the "or may not"...
I can picture (imaginary, of course ) the twit NOT being one of the guys but arguing against the cheating. "Guys... that's against the rules!"

But I can't picture the twit being MORE than a self-sufficient, domineering head honcho... what would THAT look like? Jabba the Hutt?

 

[Race Radio]

USPS/Discovery is not an anomaly. It represents the norm.

Which other Riders/teams were doing transfusions in 2000?

thanks

 

[DirtyWorks]

Well, that's the thing, they were 'true believers', they didn't question it.

And I will add - that suggesting it was "obvious" is revisionist history, and it actually downplays the scale and deviousness of the deceit.

I was actually talking about the contempt Wonderboy had/still has for his believers as the "pay to ride with Wonderboy and cure cancer" example posted just above.

If people did suspect LA doped, they had a hard search to find the real info. If you relied on the traditional or main stream media, which most do, then you were getting the spin and myth.

That's not true. The fact he was doping with Carmichael was documented for all to see. I'll post it again: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dope-and-glory-10-04-2001/

Lance Armstrong and five future Olympians were also riding for America that year.

And yet, so few would then reach the obvious conclusion all of his results during and later were doped.

 

[Dr. Maserati]

I was actually talking about the contempt Wonderboy had/still has for his believers as the "pay to ride with Wonderboy and cure cancer" example posted just above.

Ok, gotcha.

And I agree, he did treat them with contempt, hence the backlash.

That's not true. The fact he was doping with Carmichael was documented for all to see. I'll post it again: http://www.cbsnews.com/news/dope-and-glory-10-04-2001/

Lance Armstrong and five future Olympians were also riding for America that year.

And yet, so few would then reach the obvious conclusion all of his results during and later were doped.

Ok, but even the article you use (from 2001) does not say explicitly that LA doped. The whole narrative was that others may dope, LA never.
Don't get me wrong, all the info was there (both explicit & subtle) but it was countered with swift denials and numerous puff pieces.

There was also a groups that did not care he doped, or thought that, 'well, even if he did, everyone was doing it and he has done so much for cancer/bikes/blondes/America' etc

 

[DirtyWorks]

Don't get me wrong, all the info was there (both explicit & subtle) but it was countered with swift denials and numerous puff pieces.

We're covering old topics, but this is why the recent excuse of "it was a level playing field because everyone doped." is simply untrue.

It wasn't just the doping. It was both the national and international federation creating/defending the fraud and somehow a very willing press corps marching right along with the fraudsters.

 

[mewmewmew13]

We're covering old topics, but this is why the recent excuse of "it was a level playing field because everyone doped." is simply untrue.

It wasn't just the doping. It was both the national and international federation creating/defending the fraud and somehow a very willing press corps marching right along with the fraudsters.

Sigh. Yes it's old topic to us in the clinic..but sadly most of the general cycling fan or public keeps bringing up the old mantra..
I hear it every day and always do my best to educate..but this phrase is never going to go away I'm afraid and good old Lance knows he can keep it alive.

 

[Benotti69]

Sigh. Yes it's old topic to us in the clinic..but sadly most of the general cycling fan or public keeps bringing up the old mantra..
I hear it every day and always do my best to educate..but this phrase is never going to go away I'm afraid and good old Lance knows he can keep it alive.

I am sorry but 'good' is not an adjective i would ever use in relation to the monekymouth guy!

 

[mewmewmew13]

I am sorry but 'good' is not an adjective i would ever use in relation to the monekymouth guy!

how did that get by my conscience..
I meant "Lance that fecker"

 

[gooner]

The ruling maybe next week.

Both sides argued Friday before Judge Tonya Parker, who is expected to rule next week on whether the original arbitration panel still has the authority to review the case, as SCA Promotions has argued.

http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-02-21-10-31-52

 

[mewmewmew13]

The ruling maybe next week.



http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-02-21-10-31-52

whoa thanx!

 

[Fausto's Schnauzer]

how did that get by my conscience..
I meant "Lance that fecker"

When did he ever test positive for "feck"? Link please!

 

[gooner]

whoa thanx!

Hard to know which way this will go.

A bit more on it.

Jeff Tillotson, an attorney for SCA Promotions, said something had to be done when a party in the case "lied at every step of the way." The language of the settlement allowed the panel to handle any future claims about that settlement, he argued.

"You tried to hurt us - legally, (in) public relations," Tillotson said. "What's the penalty for that?"

Tillotson also said Armstrong's attorneys had previously tried to get the panel to issue sanctions after the settlement against his side.

Armstrong's attorneys say state law protects their client in such cases. Even if Armstrong lied under oath, that would not be enough to reopen the case, said Tim Herman, Armstrong's longtime attorney.

"There is no case ... that gave an arbitration panel any authority beyond the conduct of the proceeding that was going on before them," Herman said.

Parker said she would issue a ruling soon, likely early next week.

http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/9752541/Armstrong-attorneys-want-judgement-overruled?

 

[Race Radio]

The ruling maybe next week.



http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/storie...ME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT&CTIME=2014-02-21-10-31-52

A couple key points here. Lance is trying to pretend the panel is not valid

"There is no case ... that gave an arbitration panel any authority beyond the conduct of the proceeding that was going on before them," Herman said.

But he forgets that HE had tried to use the panel after the settlement

Armstrong's attorneys had previously tried to get the panel to issue sanctions after the settlement against his side.

The smoke and mirrors are not working Tim

 

[Briant_Gumble]

Well, that's the thing, they were 'true believers', they didn't question it.

And I will add - that suggesting it was "obvious" is revisionist history, and it actually downplays the scale and deviousness of the deceit.

If people did suspect LA doped, they had a hard search to find the real info. If you relied on the traditional or main stream media, which most do, then you were getting the spin and myth.

Well maybe it wasn't totally obvious before but his disdain for "the true believers" really came across in his Oprah interview.